Extreme poverty needs to be eradicated from the face of the planet!

[Jozefo]

And who is anyone to say a law is unjust? Can I expect to get away with first-degree murder simply by saying that the laws against it are unjust? Break a law and pay the consequences. The quote from Romans is most relevant here! Your statements are like those of a renegade!

If you feel that the tax laws of today are unjust, why do you follow them? Your reasoning suggests that you have a moral obligation to rebel!

God says what laws are just. He explains it very well in Exodus 20.

And yes, my statements probably do sound renegade like. So be it. My allegiance is to God Almighty, and not to a contrived god named the USA. Democracy is anti-Christ, because it puts the will of the people above that of God’s.

I follow the laws as they are because to do otherwise would make my family suffer. Hypocritical? Yes. What of it?

 

[Robert_Sock]

God says what laws are just. He explains it very well in Exodus 20.

And yes, my statements probably do sound renegade like. So be it. My allegiance is to God Almighty, and not to a contrived god named the USA. Democracy is anti-Christ, because it puts the will of the people above that of God’s.

I follow the laws as they are because to do otherwise would make my family suffer. Hypocritical? Yes. What of it?

Can I expect to get away with first-degree murder simply by saying that the laws against it are unjust?

Romans
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.”

This quote suggests to me that the laws of our government ought to be respected, even if we personally do not agree with them. Our government is there with a purpose, and it’s God’s will that we respect it!

 

[Jozefo]

Can I expect to get away with first-degree murder simply by saying that the laws against it are unjust?

Romans
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.”

This quote suggests to me that the laws of our government ought to be respected, even if we personally do not agree with them. Our government is there with a purpose, and it’s God’s will that we respect it!

No one has the right to do wrong. Returning to the murder question is pointless, because murdering someone is unjust.

And what are the governing authorities in the US? You, and a bunch of your friends? I reserve the right to say no.

This conversation is taking a frightful turn. We are at the heart of my personal dilemma with my understanding of the Scriptures and US law. They are in conflict with one another. A man cannot serve two masters, for he will love the one and hate the other. Personally, I cannot see how a Christian can honestly hold allegiance to both God and the US.

In the US, the people are supposed to be the governing authorities. Unfortunately, they have let their sovereignty become usurped as a practical matter. There are two competing systems of law at work in the US, and the vast majority willingly comply with the evil one.

So what am I to do? Submit to the legal yet unlawful system? As a pragmatic matter, that is what I do, even against my better judgement, out of my duty to keep my family safe. I have not made up my mind lightly in this matter. I have done and am doing my absolute best to understand all the implications.

I am caught in an impossible situation. I know and am fully aware of how the US has fallen down into despotism and idolatry. I know the mechanics of how it was done, and it makes me an alien in this country. I take heart in the knowledge that my citizenship is in heaven, and I am nothing more than a wandering and wayfaring stranger on the land.

 

[openmind77]

Legal or not, it’s still under threat of force.

Now from Romans, you cite Scripture to impose authority that in America does not exist except by consent. We are not underlings being ruled by other men without our consent. Indeed, it’s supposed to be the other way around. They serve us; we do not serve them.

There is nothing special about taxation in the US.

In all countries if you don’t pay your taxes.they will prosecute you - pretty much like the US.

If anything, taxes are lower in the US than the average country.

If you really don’t want to pay taxes, you should move to some rich place like Saudi Arabia or Qatar where I believe they don’t have income tax

 

[Reep]

I’m confused. Where are taxes being collected under the threat of violence? I never heard of this happening.

I know you are confused. Here is an illustration from The 19th-century abolitionist Lysander Spooner. He pretty gives the lie to the ridiculous notion that taxes are voluntary:

“The fact is that the government, like a highwayman, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat.

“The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the road side, and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful.

“The highwayman takes solely upon himself the responsibility, danger, and crime of his own act. He does not pretend that he has any rightful claim to your money, or that he intends to use it for your own benefit. He does not pretend to be anything but a robber. He has not acquired impudence enough to profess to be merely a “protector,” and that he takes men’s money against their will, merely to enable him to “protect“ those infatuated travelers, who feel perfectly able to protect themselves, or do not appreciate his peculiar system of protection. He is too sensible a man to make such professions as these.

“Furthermore, having taken your money, he leaves you, as you wish him to do. He does not persist in following you on the road, against your will; assuming to be your rightful “sovereign,” on account of the “protection” he affords you. He does not keep “protecting” you, by commanding you to bow down and serve him; by requiring you to do this, and forbidding you to do that; by robbing you of more money as often as he finds it for his interest or pleasure to do so; and by branding you as a rebel, a traitor, and an enemy to your country, and shooting you down without mercy, if you dispute his authority, or resist his demands.

“He is too much of a gentleman to be guilty of such impostures, and insults, and villainies as these. In short, he does not, in addition to robbing you, attempt to make you either his dupe or his slave.”

 

[Jozefo]

There is nothing special about taxation in the US.

In all countries if you don’t pay your taxes.they will prosecute you - pretty much like the US.

If anything, taxes are lower in the US than the average country.

If you really don’t want to pay taxes, you should move to some rich place like Saudi Arabia or Qatar where I believe they don’t have income tax

It’s not the amount of taxation that is unjust, nor is it the way taxes are collected. It’s the fact that the US government took away our money in 1933, and replaced it with a private enterprise’s company scrip, for which we pay rent on its use.

And to top it off, the good attorneys who cooked up this plan knew that for the law to* appear* just, they left a remedy in the law that allows people to opt out. But of course the government - owing its very existence to this private enterprise - works night and day to prevent people from using this remedy by harrassing them continually through its agent the IRS.

There’s no use in explaining all the details, but if you want to see the remedy go to 12 USC 411. My point is that the law - as it’s being applied - is unjust, and deserves to be scrapped.

Also, telling me to move is useless as well. Not to be combative, but I think if people don’t like what I have to say, they should move somewhere else that is more strident in silencing dissent.

 

[tabycat]

Countries need to work together to end extreme poverty. Once a plan is in place, yes, rich countries need to help the poor ones. You have this today, for example, the US sending tons of money to Egypt, but the ultimate motives are in oil interests and not ending extreme poverty per se. (Evil dictators need to be overthrown.)

But you also have corporations that can be encouraged to operate factories in poor countries and stimulate the economy.

There’s a huge amount of human capital in poor countries that can be cultivated and used to promote a worldwide economy. Everyone would eventually reap the rewards in one way or another.

1. The other countries in the Middle East are sending more money in the past two years then the US has in the past ten years. What are their motives? How about a hatred and a desire for the US (the Great Satan) to be over thrown.
2. How are the ‘evil dictators’ are to be overthrown with out military help from somebody outside of that country? Who is to decide who is to be overthrown?
3. Are you encouraging corporations in the country you are living in to open and operate factories in poor countries and explaining to the people in your country that lose their jobs?

 

[Robert_Sock]

I know you are confused. Here is an illustration from The 19th-century abolitionist Lysander Spooner. He pretty gives the lie to the ridiculous notion that taxes are voluntary:

“The fact is that the government, like a highwayman, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat.

“The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the road side, and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful.

“The highwayman takes solely upon himself the responsibility, danger, and crime of his own act. He does not pretend that he has any rightful claim to your money, or that he intends to use it for your own benefit. He does not pretend to be anything but a robber. He has not acquired impudence enough to profess to be merely a “protector,” and that he takes men’s money against their will, merely to enable him to “protect“ those infatuated travelers, who feel perfectly able to protect themselves, or do not appreciate his peculiar system of protection. He is too sensible a man to make such professions as these.

“Furthermore, having taken your money, he leaves you, as you wish him to do. He does not persist in following you on the road, against your will; assuming to be your rightful “sovereign,” on account of the “protection” he affords you. He does not keep “protecting” you, by commanding you to bow down and serve him; by requiring you to do this, and forbidding you to do that; by robbing you of more money as often as he finds it for his interest or pleasure to do so; and by branding you as a rebel, a traitor, and an enemy to your country, and shooting you down without mercy, if you dispute his authority, or resist his demands.

“He is too much of a gentleman to be guilty of such impostures, and insults, and villainies as these. In short, he does not, in addition to robbing you, attempt to make you either his dupe or his slave.”

This sounds like the personal opinion of one person, an abolitionist at that. It does not necessarily reflect the view of most Americans today. It may, or may not, be a fact worth holding on to.

 

[Robert_Sock]

1. The other countries in the Middle East are sending more money in the past two years then the US has in the past ten years. What are their motives? How about a hatred and a desire for the US (the Great Satan) to be over thrown.

So the US is “the Great Satan” now. Wow! No wonder we disagree so much.

1. How are the ‘evil dictators’ are to be overthrown with out military help from somebody outside of that country? Who is to decide who is to be overthrown?

The people are to decide in a democratic fashion. Countries are free to support these freedom fighters as they wish.

1. Are you encouraging corporations in the country you are living in to open and operate factories in poor countries and explaining to the people in your country that lose their jobs?

The idea would be to create decent paying jobs and stimulate the economy. With the presence of large corporations, comes the development of lower-order industries and businesses.

 

[Billy_Buescher]

Yes, but that is all legal. Given one is not in poverty, only a renegade would refuse to pay taxes that are due.

Romans
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.”

Hi,

Your quote of Romans 13:1, of the 4 Bibles I have, only one uses “person” the rest use “soul”, I am guessing that Paul is only concerned with Church government. Which looks out for our soul.

(Rom 13:2) Therefore, he that resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist purchase to themselves damnation.

I do not know of any government that rules, by the ordinances of God. If the US ruled by the ordinances of God, we would not have any abortions, among other things.

 

[tabycat]

So the US is “the Great Satan” now. Wow! No wonder we disagree so much.

The people are to decide in a democratic fashion. Countries are free to support these freedom fighters as they wish.

The idea would be to create decent paying jobs and stimulate the economy. With the presence of large corporations, comes the development of lower-order industries and businesses.

I do not know where you have your head, but we (the US) have been called the ‘Great Satan’ and Isreal has been called the ‘Little Satan’ for as long as I can remember.

Define ‘democratic fashion’. It seems that many of the countries of the world have had ‘free elections’, like Egypt.

You did not answer my question, what do you say to someone who has lost their job because the company move to another country with lower wages?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hi,

Your quote of Romans 13:1, of the 4 Bibles I have, only one uses “person” the rest use “soul”, I am guessing that Paul is only concerned with Church government. Which looks out for our soul.

(Rom 13:2) Therefore, he that resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist purchase to themselves damnation.

I do not know of any government that rules, by the ordinances of God. If the US ruled by the ordinances of God, we would not have any abortions, among other things.

The following may reflect light on Romans 13:1:

Romans 13:6-7
6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. *

 

[Jozefo]

The following may reflect light on Romans 13:1:

Romans 13:6-7
6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. *

What if you found out taxes weren’t due? And that by paying them anyway, you were contributing to the falsehood that they were due? What moral obligation is incurred in light of Scripture?

See, this is my problem. Well, part of my problem. I’ve chosen to go along in order to get along. It’s my sin.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I do not know where you have your head, but we (the US) have been called the ‘Great Satan’ and Isreal has been called the ‘Little Satan’ for as long as I can remember.

Sounds rather derogatory, and I doubt that many in the West would agree.

Define ‘democratic fashion’. It seems that many of the countries of the world have had ‘free elections’, like Egypt.

"Democratic fashion’ would be free election, one vote per each citizen above the voting age.

You did not answer my question, what do you say to someone who has lost their job because the company move to another country with lower wages?

Newly developed nations deserve their own corporate offices. These can be extensions of already present corporations in Western Society. No jobs would be lost, but new jobs created with a new market established. Cheap labor would be abolished worldwide. The standard of living would increase for everyone, especially those in the lower class. New, more advanced, products would abound.

 

[openmind77]

It’s not the amount of taxation that is unjust, nor is it the way taxes are collected. It’s the fact that the US government took away our money in 1933, and replaced it with a private enterprise’s company scrip, for which we pay rent on its use.

And to top it off, the good attorneys who cooked up this plan knew that for the law to* appear* just, they left a remedy in the law that allows people to opt out. But of course the government - owing its very existence to this private enterprise - works night and day to prevent people from using this remedy by harrassing them continually through its agent the IRS.

There’s no use in explaining all the details, but if you want to see the remedy go to 12 USC 411. My point is that the law - as it’s being applied - is unjust, and deserves to be scrapped.

Also, telling me to move is useless as well. Not to be combative, but I think if people don’t like what I have to say, they should move somewhere else that is more strident in silencing dissent.

I suggested you move, so you would not have to pay taxes, not to silence you. I am sure you can post to this forum from Saudi Arabia.

The point I was making is that the system is the same all over the world. The currency there also works pretty much the same. There is no place where you can opt of out paying taxes. The only other option is to buy an island and create your own country.

 

[Jozefo]

I suggested you move, so you would not have to pay taxes, not to silence you. I am sure you can post to this forum from Saudi Arabia.

The point I was making is that the system is the same all over the world. The currency there also works pretty much the same. There is no place where you can opt of out paying taxes. The only other option is to buy an island and create your own country.

Yes, the system is the same all over the world, except in a few Muslim countries. The world is in the grip of Belial.

Jeremiah 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! 9:2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men. 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD. 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders. 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity. 9:6 Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD.

 

[openmind77]

I do not know where you have your head, but we (the US) have been called the ‘Great Satan’ and Isreal has been called the ‘Little Satan’ for as long as I can remember.

Define ‘democratic fashion’. It seems that many of the countries of the world have had ‘free elections’, like Egypt.

You did not answer my question, what do you say to someone who has lost their job because the company move to another country with lower wages?

I am not sure how we got from poverty to Great Satan. Actually it is Iran where this phrase comes from - but they don’t send any money to Egypt. Saudi Arabia is sending money to Egypt- Saudi Arabia is our ally.

As for lower wages - you are right, we should not make it so easy to move jobs to another country. Closing a plant and moving jobs is quite difficult in most European countries, we make it too easy here in the US.

But that does not mean countries should not work together to alleviate hunger and poverty word-wide - they definitely should.

 

[livingwordunity]

Intervention by the Holy See at the 44th Session of the U.N. Commission for Social Development Of ECOSOC

Lessons from the experience of some developing countries, particularly in Asia, make it clear that rapid poverty reduction cannot take place without sustainable economic growth in which the poor share equitably in the benefits. Consequently, developing countries’ leaders need to be encouraged and assisted in the pursuit of policies that will enable their countries to attain much higher economic growth rates than so far achieved since 2000.

With regard to the links between poverty eradication and inequality, my delegation believes that, as well as considering low levels of income, more attention should also be paid to inequalities within and between societies. Such differences can make men and women look elsewhere for better paid work and may lead to the flight of both skilled and unskilled labour, often to the detriment of developing countries’ economies, in spite of spin off gains such as remittances. Poverty eradication and a more even social development will necessarily include the means to attract and retain labour of every kind. (Read more)

 

[tabycat]

Sounds rather derogatory, and I doubt that many in the West would agree.

"Democratic fashion’ would be free election, one vote per each citizen above the voting age.

Newly developed nations deserve their own corporate offices. These can be extensions of already present corporations in Western Society. No jobs would be lost, but new jobs created with a new market established. Cheap labor would be abolished worldwide. The standard of living would increase for everyone, especially those in the lower class. New, more advanced, products would abound.

Since when has the Middle East been the West? Being Irish-Czech I am use to people thinking and saying that I am ‘a nothing’ and a ‘nonperson’.

How about the elections held less the two years ago in Egypt, where they free? How about the people in the streets disagreeing that the elections were free?

If you think that a corporation lives one country because of high taxes and high labor costs and goes to another with lower costs and there will be no jobs lost in the first country, you are living in la-la land and/or you know nothing about business.

 

[tabycat]

I am not sure how we got from poverty to Great Satan. Actually it is Iran where this phrase comes from - but they don’t send any money to Egypt. Saudi Arabia is sending money to Egypt- Saudi Arabia is our ally.

As for lower wages - you are right, we should not make it so easy to move jobs to another country. Closing a plant and moving jobs is quite difficult in most European countries, we make it too easy here in the US.

But that does not mean countries should not work together to alleviate hunger and poverty word-wide - they definitely should.

How do you think the US should make it harder for plants closing and moving jobs over to another country? Maybe lowering their tax burden and more right-to-work states.

I’m more for groups other the countries to work to alleviate poverty and hunger, not throug