Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth teaching and Saddam

[wjp984]

I think Saddam got what he deserved and it was just. However, what’s funny is that of all the hating the West for its ideas and stuff, it seems we have something in common with the Islamic nations after all since we are one of the few nations that still use the death penalty as well.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Jesus did not teach pacifism nor does the Church. I understand the sensibilities of many people regarding not taking any human life, but we have to see things in the light of what is true not just in the light of what we think shouldn’t be. Many a kind-hearted feeling has led to great horrors. It is how abortion came to be allowed by law and contraception, no fault divorce and gay marriage being considered next, for example. Truth is what we must live by not what we feel for our feelings can betray us, but the truth cannot.

I really do understand what you are saying but also, if capital punishment is allowed, how can abortion ever be eliminated?
The pro-choice circuit would say “what’s the difference? People die all the time. It’s population control.” I’ve actually heard them say it before, as sad as it is. When one form of killing is legal, how can we say it’s barbaric to do the other?
Just a side note, I’m very much pro-life and am just presenting the arguments I’ve heard from the other side of things.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

Im not sure where I stand on this issue. My minister did recently give a sermon(cant remember what it was about)but he mentioned a bible verse that talks about capitol punishment. Does anyone know what Im talking about because I dont know where the verse is.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Hi,

Im not sure where I stand on this issue. My minister did recently give a sermon(cant remember what it was about)but he mentioned a bible verse that talks about capitol punishment. Does anyone know what Im talking about because I dont know where the verse is.

Maybe Romans 13:2-5

Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4] for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
5] Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

 

[Superstar905]

Did I say something wrong?

Not at all. I think you were bang on. Jesus taught us to forgive, to turn the other cheek, etc. I don’t think anyone has the right to murder someone, because they are a murderer. Lock him up, keep him from contact in the outside world, whatever. Let God be his judge, not us.

I think this from Mother Teresa is appropriate:

People are often unreasonable and self-centered.
Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, people may accuse you of ulterior motives.
Be kind anyway.

If you are honest, people may cheat on you.
Be honest anyway.

If you find happiness, people may be jealous.
Be happy anyway.

The good you do today may be forgotten tomorrow.
Do good anyway.

If you give the world the best you have, it may never be enough
Give your best anyway.

For you see, in the end it is between you and your heart.
It was never between you and them anyway.

-Mother Teresa

Of course, I begrudge no one for their opinions and respect everyones thoughts. I just can’t get my head around the fact that this cruel wicked man was murdered, who are those authorities to play God with his life?

 

[fix]

Of course, I begrudge no one for their opinions and respect everyones thoughts. I just can’t get my head around the fact that this cruel wicked man was murdered, who are those authorities to play God with his life?

That is just the point. Civil authority does derive their authority from God. They can impose the death penalty and it is not murder.

We may agree that penalty is not needed in most circumstances today, but the authority to impose it does exist and it is legitimate and it is derived from God.

 

[Superstar905]

That is just the point. Civil authority does derive their authority from God. They can impose the death penalty and it is not murder.

We may agree that penalty is not needed in most circumstances today, but the authority to impose it does exist and it is legitimate and it is derived from God.

I believe there are limits to what Civil authority can do. I don’t think that murder is one of them, especially when there are alternative methods of punishment. God intedended Civil authority to govern, but not to replace his authority on human life. By playing God and killing someone, that is exactly what they have done.

This was murder, how can it not be? They just feel its justified murder. Calling it “the death penalty” is just a less damaging way of saying they are committing justified murder.

 

[fix]

I believe there are limits to what Civil authority can do. I don’t think that murder is one of them, especially when there are alternative methods of punishment. God intedended Civil authority to govern, but not to replace his authority on human life. By playing God and killing someone, that is exactly what they have done.

This was murder, how can it not be? They just feel its justified murder. Calling it “the death penalty” is just a less damaging way of saying they are committing justified murder.

The Church teaches differently.

Pius XII, in a further clarification of the standard argument, holds that when the State, acting by its ministerial power, uses the death penalty, it does not exercise dominion over human life but only recognizes that the criminal, by a kind of moral suicide, has deprived himself of the right to life. In the Pope’s words,Even when there is question of the execution of a condemned man, the State does not dispose of the individual’s right to life. In this case it is reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned person of the enjoyment of life in expiation of his crime when, by his crime, he has already dispossessed himself of his right to life.In light of all this it seems safe to conclude that the death penalty is not in itself a violation of the right to life. The real issue for Catholics is to determine the circumstances under which that penalty ought to be applied…

Catholicism & Capital Punishment

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Superstar,

Which causes a person greater loss of life, State capital punishment or Church Anathema?

Jesus gives His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors that anyone they hold bound to sin on earth, He will hold bound to sin in heaven (Church anathema). What Happens to a soul when Jesus, bound by His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors, binds a soul to sin in heaven? That soul suffers spiritual eternal death.

Christ binding a soul to sin is the “Sword” of His mouth which spritually slays the wicked. Christ binding or loosting sins, so souls may or may not enter into eternal life, is the “keys to the kingdom”.

Christ’s phylosophy is that it is better for the Church to cut of one of Her limbs and cast it into Gehhena than for that limb to drag the whole body of the Church down into Gehhena.

Jesus gave His Church the power and authority to anathematize in order that Church leaders use anathema to protect the body of people of the Church. State leaders use physical capital punishment to protect the body of people of the State.

Please visit Throwing Stones

Anathema

…“To understand the word anathema”, says Vigouroux, “we should first go back to the real meaning of herem of which it is the equivalent. Herem comes from the word haram, to cut off, to separate, to curse, and indicates that which is cursed and condemned to be cut off or exterminated… …but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven”…anathema, which separates from the body of Christ, which is the Church."… …stricken with the sword of anathema; but if plunging to the depths of the abyss…In passing this sentence, the pontiff…

**…**pronounces **the formula of anathema **which ends with these words: Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate …

**He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.**Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema **NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, "Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.“NAB REV 1:16****A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth,…I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”**NAB ISA 11:4 **The Rule of Immanuel

**He shall strike the ruthless with the **rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​

**NAB JOH 20:20 **
"Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

 

[Steven_Merten]

I believe there are limits to what Civil authority can do. I don’t think that murder is one of them, especially when there are alternative methods of punishment. God intedended Civil authority to govern, but not to replace his authority on human life. By playing God and killing someone, that is exactly what they have done.

This was murder, how can it not be? They just feel its justified murder. Calling it “the death penalty” is just a less damaging way of saying they are committing justified murder.

Hello Superstar,

Do we agree that God would never command or authorize man to commit murder? God does command and authorize man to put to death murderers.

NAB GEN 9:6
"If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made."

 

[st_ignatius110]

So this would suggest then that the killing was not justified. There are non-lethal means to protect peoples safety, including keeping him locked up behind bars for the rest of his life. I also think the last line of the quote from the catechism says it all.

This is the problem. Saddam was not a “normal” prisoner. Not only do third world countries not have the capabilities that we have of securing prisoners but Saddam would have never been secure. All it would take is an attack on the prison he would be held in and he would be free to terrorize once again and quickly rise to power once again. This is not an issue of “judging another” or “he deserves it” but an issue that this is a man very dangerous not only to his own people but to the whole world. This man called for the destruction of all who dared stand in his way. If kept alive I seriously doubt any prison would contain Saddam.

 

[Superstar905]

Interesting view points indeed.

 

[Anim8]

**
IMHO; the hanging falls outside the jursidiction of the Catholic Church. Sadaam was not a christian. The Iraqi courts (read US military) that passed the sentence were not Christian.

Therefore any debate with respects to a Catechism is moot.**

I don’t know if you are Catholic or not. But as far as I am (and any other Catholic should be) concerned, nothing lies outside the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church.

As Della said, the Catholic Church teaches that:

“the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”

If we were talking about America, or another country with the means to imprison someone like Saddam, then I would disagree with the killing of Saddam. But this is Iraq. They do not have the facilities to keep Saddam, think about it. He would be a target for terrorists (or others that enjoyed his rule) to free. There really is no way Iraq would be able to keep him from being a danger. The only way to keep him out of society, is to kill him.

I think that while I do not like the fact that he had to be killed. It was done, and I think they were justified in doing so. The Church has made exceptions to its position on the death penalty for a reason.

My father is a well known professor of moral theology in my area, and he agrees that Iraq was justified in killing Saddam.

But regardless, one only needs to look up the Churches teaching to find the truth.

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68

“Rome has spoken; the case is closed” – St. Augustine

 

[marci]

I do not believe the death penalty is intrinsicly evil, nor has the church for hundreds of years. I also do not buy the argument that if you are pro-life, than how can you be for the death penalty. This to me is very simple. It is the difference between innocense and guilt.

But, I tell you what, you give me no more abortion in america and I’ll give you no more death penalty. What’s sad is I will probably live to see the end of the death penalty, however, I believe abortion will be here until Jesus comes again.

 

[Superstar905]

But regardless, one only needs to look up the Churches teaching to find the truth.

“Rome has spoken; the case is closed” – St. Augustine

Well, this Vatican official, has stated the Vatican’s staunch opposition to the Death Penalty.
usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-12-30-vatican-saddam_x.htm

He goes on to state in the article:

Earlier in the morning, Lombardi made similar comments on Vatican Radio.

"The position of the Catholic Church — against the death penalty — has been reiterated many times," the spokesman said in the statement, referring to the Vatican’s overall opposition to capital punishment.

“Killing the guilty one is not the way to rebuild justice and reconcile society,” the spokesman said. “On the contrary, there is the risk that the spirit of revenge is fueled and that the seeds of new violence are sown.”

“In this dark time in the life of the Iraq people, one can only hope that all leaders truly make every effort so that in a dramatic situation glimmers of reconciliation and of peace finally can be seen,” Lombardi said.

In an interview published in an Italian daily earlier in the week, the Vatican’s top prelate for justice issues, Cardinal Renato Martino, said executing Saddam would mean punishing "a crime with another crime."

In one of the late Pope John Paul II’s encyclicals, “Evangelium Vitae” (The Gospel of Life) in 1995, the pontiff laid out the Catholic Church’s stance against capital punishment, saying that in a modern world, with improved prison systems, cases in which the death penalty could be justified were "practically non-existent."

This all seems very much in line with my thinking.

 

[Anim8]

Here’s an interesting article that presents the truth far better then I.

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,240990,00.html

 

[Potato1]

I think it is stupid to lament and question or even celebrate the death of Saddam when there is a war going on where people die every day, beheadings are a commmon occurance and roadside bombs the cause of traffic jams. Or even in our own country where people are dying everyday from crime, abortion, even state sponsored executions. Dicussing the morality of Sadams hanging is rediculous and shows a myopic view of the situation.

 

[Superstar905]

I think it is stupid to lament and question or even celebrate the death of Saddam when there is a war going on where people die every day, beheadings are a commmon occurance and roadside bombs the cause of traffic jams. Or even in our own country where people are dying everyday from crime, abortion, even state sponsored executions. Dicussing the morality of Sadams hanging is rediculous and shows a myopic view of the situation.

Too bad, this is what I want to discuss. Go start your own thread if you like about all those other issues.