Eye Has Not Seen?

[Psychotheosophy]

“To darken and purge the will of joy in these sensory goods and lead it through them to God, we must presuppose a truth. It is, as we have often said, that the senses of the lower part of man’s nature, with which we are dealing, nether are nor can be capable of the knowledge or comprehension of God as He is in Himself. The eye cannot see Him or anything like Him, nor the hearing perceive His voice or any sound resembling it, nor can the sense of smell apprehend a fragrance so sweet, nor the sense of taste relish so sublime and delightful a savor, nor can the sense of touch experience a feeling so delicate and ravishing, nor anything similar. Neither is God’s form or any figure representing it apprehensible to thought or imagination. Isaias thus affirms: ‘Eye has not seen Him, nor ear heard Him, nor has it entered into the heart of man (Is 64:4).’”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book III

Should we presuppose this?

 

[Cygnus2112]

I don’t think we have to. The existence of God and how He relates to existence itself is a pretty deducible one. It is irrational to say everything came from nothing, so there had to be something that is the source of the existence of everything, something that did not rely on anything creating it. That something is God.

As the Catechism teaches, The Father is existence itself. The Son is the fruition, the self-realization of existence (it is impossible to exist without realizing one’s own existence). The Holy Spirit is the connection, the love of existence, the realizing that it is better to exist than to not exist. This is the Trinity, this is God.

We not only see God. Everything we sense is God. There is nothing we don’t sense that is not God, for if is weren’t it wouldn’t exist, and we wouldn’t sense it.

To say everything we know came from literally nothing is to speak insanity.

 

[Cygnus2112]

Oh, and I think that your quote was referring to God in his entirety. We can’t “sense” God in his entirety, and everything you might deduce about monotheistic religion would have God as it’s “presupposed” assumption.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I don’t think we have to. The existence of God and how He relates to existence itself is a pretty deducible one. It is irrational to say everything came from nothing, so there had to be something that is the source of the existence of everything, something that did not rely on anything creating it. That something is God.

Existence can never cease to exist,
Goodness can never lack goodness,
Existence = Goodness = God

“By sensory goods we mean all the goods apprehensible to the senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch, and to the interior faculty of discursive imagination.”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book III, Chapter 24

Since,
What we see, hear, smell, taste, touch,
Or even dream up (imagination),
Can lose satisfaction,
Sensory goods,
Have Goodness,
Without being,
Goodness,
Itself.

We not only see God. Everything we sense is God. There is nothing we don’t sense that is not God, for if is weren’t it wouldn’t exist, and we wouldn’t sense it.

So,
We actually can’t “sense” God at all.

Oh, and I think that your quote was referring to God in his entirety. We can’t “sense” God in his entirety, and everything you might deduce about monotheistic religion would have God as it’s “presupposed” assumption.

However,…

“I purposely said that it would be vanity for the will to pause to rejoice in any of these apprehensions… Frequently spiritual persons use this refreshment of the senses under the pretext of prayer and devotion to God; and they so perform these exercises that would call what they do recreation rather than prayer, and pleasing self rather than God. Though the intention of these persons is directed to God, the effect they receive is recreation of the senses, from which they obtain weakness and imperfection more than the quickening of their will and surrender to God.”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel

Furthermore,

(it is impossible to exist without realizing one’s own existence)

The philosopher Kierkgaard (sp?)
Argued that we can not know,
With infallible certainty,
That we exist.

Does it follow that Kierkgaard,
At some point he did not exist?

 

[Psychotheosophy]

“By sensory goods we mean all the goods apprehensible to the senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch, and to the interior faculty of discursive imagination.”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book III, Chapter 24

And so,

“The soul will have to empty itself of these images (Imagining Christ crucified, or at the column, or in some other scene, or of God seated upon a throne with resplendent majesty; or the imagining and considering of the glory as a beautiful light; or the picturing of any other human or divine object imaginable) and leave this sense of darkness if it is to reach divine union. For these images, just like corporal objects of the exterior senses, cannot be an adequate, proximate mean to God.”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book II

So,

Divine Union involves,
Emptying ourselves
Of these images of God because,

Sensory goods lose satisfaction.

But we believe that
Complete and Perfect Happiness
Restores even the body.

If all we had,

Was a perpetual cycle,
Of highs and lows,
Gains and loses of satisfaction,

Then over a long period of time,
It would become excruciating,
Because all people naturally desire,

Completion and an End.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

But we believe that
Complete and Perfect Happiness
Restores even the body.

It is commonly known that,
Hospital patients,
Who are happier,
Heal faster.

We believe that,
Complete and Perfect Happiness,
Which is unimaginable,
Can resurrect the dead.

“We must always bear in mind this principle: the more importance given to any clear and distinct apprehension, natural or supernatural, the less capacity and preparedness the soul has for entering the abyss of faith.”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book III

So,

Even in the unique person of Jesus,
(Both human and divine),
Though many saw
His humanity
(And His miracles),
Many did not see that
He is Perfect Happiness,
Which is not self-evident.

Therefore,

Divine Union involves,
Emptying ourselves,
Of sensory goods.

If all we had,

Was a perpetual cycle,
Of highs and lows,
Gains and loses of satisfaction,

Then over a long period of time,
It would become excruciating,
Because all people naturally desire,

Completion and an End.

So,…

“As the Wise Man declares: ‘He withdraws from thoughts that are without reason’ (Wisdom 1:5)… Thus if the whole world were to crumble and come to an end and all things were to go wrong, it would be useless to get disturbed, for this would do more harm than good. The endurance of all tranquil and peaceful equanimity not only reaps many blessings, but also helps the soul so that in these very adversities it may succeed in judging them and employing them the proper remedy. Solomon, having clear knowledge of this harm and this advantage, exclaimed: 'I knew there was nothing better for man than rejoice and do good in his life (Eccl. 3:12).”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book III

And since,

“It would be vanity for the will to pause to rejoice in any of these apprehensions,” and “David proclaimed: 'Indeed every man is disturbed in vain (Psalm 38:7).”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel

Then,

Diving Union involves,
Emptying ourselves,
Of sensory goods,
Avoiding vanity,
And seeking,
Complete and Perfect Happiness,
Who is God and Goodness Himself.

 

[thistle]

It is commonly known that,
Hospital patients,
Who are happier,
Heal faster.

We believe that,
Complete and Perfect Happiness,
Which is unimaginable,
Can resurrect the dead.

So,

Even in the unique person of Jesus,
(Both human and divine),
Though many saw
His humanity
(And His miracles),
Many did not see that
He is Perfect Happiness,
Which is not self-evident.

Therefore,

Divine Union involves,
Emptying ourselves,
Of sensory goods.

So,…

And since,

Then,

Diving Union involves,
Emptying ourselves,
Of sensory goods,
Avoiding vanity,
And seeking,
Complete and Perfect Happiness,
Who is God and Goodness Himself.

What is the point to all of this? Clearly nobody is interested!

 

[Psychotheosophy]

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:1.

Faith allows us to “see” Complete Happiness.

“St Paul states: ‘So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ (Rom 10:17).’ This amounts to saying that faith is not a knowledge derived from the senses, but an assent of the soul to what enters by hearing.”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book II

Sensory goods can lead to faith in Goodness
However,
Sensory goods can not sufficiently do so,
Because,
Sensory goods are not,
Nor like,
Goodness itself.

“As the saying goes: What the eye doesn’t see, the heart doesn’t want.”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book III

Since all men naturally desire Happiness
There is a contrary and subordinate desire within man,
To find Happiness in sensory goods,
Which loses satisfaction.
(Unhappiness)

“When all things are forgotten, nothing disturbs the peace or stirs the appetites.”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book III

Forgetting and withdrawing from sensory goods,
Is necessary for “seeing” Complete Happiness.

Perfectly,
Forgetting and withdrawing,
From sensory goods,
Requires for us,
To permit God,
(Who is Perfection Himself)
To help.

"Faith, manifestly, is a dark night for man, but in this very way it gives him light…Faith was foreshadowed in that cloud which separated the children of Israel, just before their entry into the Red Sea, from the Egyptians (‘The cloud was dark, and illuminative in the night,’ Ex 14:20).

This is related to illustrate how faith, a dark and obscure cloud to man, illumines and pours light into the darkness of his soul by means of his own darkness. This is fitting that the disciple be like the master."

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book II

When we forget and withdraw from sensory goods,
Nor do we sense Complete Happiness,
In this emptiness,
We “see” God.
Through faith.

And this Complete Happiness
Overcomes any incomplete happiness.

What is the point to all of this? Clearly nobody is interested!

Are you asking me to stop?

 

[thistle]

Faith allows us to “see” Complete Happiness.

Sensory goods can lead to faith in Goodness
However,
Sensory goods can not sufficiently do so,
Because,
Sensory goods are not,
Nor like,
Goodness itself.

Since all men naturally desire Happiness
There is a contrary and subordinate desire within man,
To find Happiness in sensory goods,
Which loses satisfaction.
(Unhappiness)

Forgetting and withdrawing from sensory goods,
Is necessary for “seeing” Complete Happiness.

Perfectly,
Forgetting and withdrawing,
From sensory goods,
Requires for us,
To permit God,
(Who is Perfection Himself)
To help.

When we forget and withdraw from sensory goods,
Nor do we sense Complete Happiness,
In this emptiness,
We “see” God.
Through faith.

And this Complete Happiness
Overcomes any incomplete happiness.

Are you asking me to stop?

Yes. If you want a monologue then start a blogsite. Then it doesn’t matter if you get any comments or not but these forums are for discussions. There are no discussions in this thread.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

When we forget and withdraw from sensory goods,
Nor do we sense Complete Happiness,
In this emptiness,
We “see” God.
Through faith.

And this Complete Happiness
Overcomes any incomplete happiness.

So,

During Lent,
When we give up sensory goods,
And willingly suffer,
It is helpful not to even think about,
What we are giving up,

"… Solomon, having clear knowledge of this harm and this advantage, exclaimed: 'I knew there was nothing better for man than rejoice

Rather,
It is helpful,
To focus on God,
(Who is Happiness
And Goodness Himself)

Yes. If you want a monologue then start a blogsite. Then it doesn’t matter if you get any comments or not but these forums are for discussions. There are no discussions in this thread.

These forums are for trying to generate discussions,
But you want to censor it?
Do you disagree with anything I wrote?

 

[thistle]

So,

During Lent,
When we give up sensory goods,
And willingly suffer,
It is helpful not to even think about,
What we are giving up,

Rather,
It is helpful,
To focus on God,
(Who is Happiness
And Goodness Himself)

These forums are for trying to generate discussions,
But you want to censor it?
Do you disagree with anything I wrote?

You are missing the point. It doesn’t matter if I agree or disagree with anything you have written. You communication means will not generate a discussion.
I could start a thread and type every book of the Bible which is a fantastic read of course but simply doing that would not generate a discussion.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

You are missing the point. It doesn’t matter if I agree or disagree with anything you have written. You communication means will not generate a discussion.
I could start a thread and type every book of the Bible which is a fantastic read of course but simply doing that would not generate a discussion.

I think it is generating a discussion right now.

How do you think we could generate a discussion
Regarding this topic?

 

[StrawberryJam]

I think it is generating a discussion right now.

How do you think we could generate a discussion
Regarding this topic?

Tie this in with a current news event, like the plane crash. That might help.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Tie this in with a current news event, like the plane crash. That might help.

When we forget and withdraw from sensory goods,
Nor do we sense Complete Happiness,
In this emptiness,
We “see” God.
Through faith.

And this Complete Happiness
Overcomes any incomplete happiness.

We are have seen and heard many things regarding the crash,

The horrifying details of the crash,
The suffering which is traumatic in many ways,
But also,
The emergency workers who risked their lives to save the dying,
And those who will be able to forgive.

(We see the unbelievable goodness in these people.)

It is commonly known that,
Hospital patients,
Who are happier,
Heal faster.

We believe that,
Complete and Perfect Happiness,
Which is unimaginable,
Can resurrect the dead.

Sometimes Goodness is more apparent to us where there is suffering.

And we can “see” that Goodness itself,
Is infinitely greater,
Than the goodness,
We see even in those people.

This is where we find our joy.
As we try to focus on God,
(Who died for us sinners)
Rather than the suffering.

This joy can not be forced,
People need to grieve,
Like Christ in the Garden,
Or Mary at the foot of the Cross.

Both of whom are always with those who suffer.

What are your thoughts?

 

[StrawberryJam]

We are have seen and heard many things regarding the crash,

The horrifying details of the crash,
The suffering which is traumatic in many ways,
But also,
The emergency workers who risked their lives to save the dying,
And those who will be able to forgive.

(We see the unbelievable goodness in these people.)

Sometimes Goodness is more apparent to us where there is suffering.

And we can “see” that Goodness itself,
Is infinitely greater,
Than the goodness,
We see even in those people.

This is where we find our joy.
As we try to focus on God,
(Who died for us sinners)
Rather than the suffering.

This joy can not be forced,
People need to grieve,
Like Christ in the Garden,
Or Mary at the foot of the Cross.

Both of whom are always with those who suffer.

What are your thoughts?

I think you are an interesting person and I have no idea why people brush your threads and posts aside they way they do. I think you say things but also say them to get people to think and either ask or respond with their understanding of the things you speak about.

As you know I am not a believer yet, but I am so sick of the typical canned responses and never ending simillar topics and back and forth. Your stuff is at least your stuff, and different.

That’s what I think.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

As you know I am not a believer yet, but I am so sick of the typical canned responses and never ending simillar topics and back and forth. Your stuff is at least your stuff, and different.
Psychotheosophy;6299806:

“St Paul states: ‘So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ (Rom 10:17).’ This amounts to saying that faith is not a knowledge derived from the senses, but an assent of the soul to what enters by hearing.”

Thank you,

But, it’s not really my stuff,

These have always been the teachings of the Catholic Church.
And it can be very difficult explaining,
And even if we do it well,

It will always be insufficient for belief.

I’m curious,

How would your life change,
If you believed,
In God?

 

[thistle]

Thank you,

But, it’s not really my stuff,

These have always been the teachings of the Catholic Church.
And it can be very difficult explaining,
And even if we do it well,

It will always be insufficient for belief.

I’m curious,

How would your life change,
If you believed,
In God?

Why are you communicating in this stupid verse style??
Nobody talks that way. This is a discussion forum as I said before. We don’t have discussions in verses!
Talk normally and you might get more responses.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Thank you,

But, it’s not really my stuff,

These have always been the teachings of the Catholic Church.
And it can be very difficult explaining,
And even if we do it well,

It will always be insufficient for belief.

I’m curious,

How would your life change,
If you believed,
In God?

I’ll let you know when it happens, and I am not expecting much if I do since I am told it’s still possible to sin after belief. Like crazy.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I’ll let you know when it happens, and I am not expecting much if I do since I am told it’s still possible to sin after belief. Like crazy.

It sounds like,

On the one hand,
You believe in God,
Yet,
On the other hand,
You don’t believe in God?

Maybe a better question to ask would be:

“How do you distinguish between
Agnosticism and Catholicism?”

In Catholicism, after Baptism,
Sometimes we don’t trust in God,
Sometimes we trust God will save us,
Even without our continued cooperation.

(If I’m getting too pushy, please don’t feel obliged to respond.)

 

[StrawberryJam]

It sounds like,

On the one hand,
You believe in God,
Yet,
On the other hand,
You don’t believe in God?

Maybe a better question to ask would be:

“How do you distinguish between
Agnosticism and Catholicism?”

In Catholicism, after Baptism,
Sometimes we don’t trust in God,
Sometimes we trust God will save us,
Even without our continued cooperation.

(If I’m getting too pushy, please don’t feel obliged to respond.)

The vast majority of Catholics do not have an out of hand mistrust of the scientific community, and the theology actually does encourage such logical means to evaluate data.
There are other reasons, many that I don’t share but another that I will is the love of art and freedom of expression allowed in that area.

I don’t know if cooperation with God will or will not change any set of circumstances while one is alive.