Ezekial's Temple...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I’ve come across a few different sources that seem to indicate belief that the temple spoken of in Ezekial will be the third temple that brings in the Jewish Messianic age.

I guess I’m not familiar with this within a Catholic sense, so I’d be interested in hearing some Catholic thoughts on this. I have read some thoughts about this from the early fathers though

Likewise, since this is a book from the Hebrew Scriptures (and since this is the Non-Catholic section), I would be interested in hearing from a distinctively Jewish perspective on this matter too.

I’ve read a few sources about this from a Millennial Evangelical Christian position too (most protestants do not seem to address this at all). From what I’ve read, the millennial Christian seems to be thinking that this temple will be built for the coming of the Lord or something similar-- and have, in my opinion, pointed out some very interesting things regarding this possible future temple.

As far as I understand, this seems to be a topic that is largely missing from Islamic thought-- but I admit I could be wrong too

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Valke2]

Originally, there was a dispute as to whether Ezekial was referring the the second or the (future) third Temple. Ezekial’s prophecy happened between the 1st and 2nd Temple, but it was ultimately decided that Ezekial was referring to the 3rd Temple. A traditional/orthodox view is that that the leaders, knowing that the 2nd Temple would be destroyed to be eventually replaced by the 3rd, did not follow Ezekial’s plans to the letter.

There’s a commandment for the Jewish people to build the Temple (whenever it is not standing), according to Rambam. According to him, we have to rebuild it whenever, however we can. He also stated that the conclusive evidence that the Messiah will have arrived is that he will be the guy who builds the Third Temple. To me, these two things sound like they may be contradictory.

But there’s another view held in Judaism. That Hashem will build the Temple Himself. That it will descend from heaven. Those who hold to this view would say that the commandment to build the Sancturay was already completed. Scriptual support for this view: Exodus 15:17: You shall bring them in and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance, in the establishment of Your residence which You have made, O Eternal, the Sanctuary, G-d, which Your hands have established.

more later (maybe. Ezikel is not my forte).

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Originally, there was a dispute as to whether Ezekial was referring the the second or the (future) third Temple. Ezekial’s prophecy happened between the 1st and 2nd Temple, but it was ultimately decided that Ezekial was referring to the 3rd Temple. A traditional/orthodox view is that that the leaders, knowing that the 2nd Temple would be destroyed to be eventually replaced by the 3rd, did not follow Ezekial’s plans to the letter.

There’s some Christian groups which seem to be actively engaged in financially assisting Jewish people in building the Temple. And, from a strictly Jewish perspective, they’ve pointed point out a few things that caught my attention. More specifically, there seems to be eight things missing in Ezekial’s temple that were formerly included in the previous temples.

For example, 1) the wall of partition, 2) the court of women, 3) the laver, 4) the golden lampstand, 5) the table of showbread, 6) the altar of incense, 7) the veil, and 8) the ark of the covenant are not mentioned at all.

In addition to this, the altar of sacrifice is apparently radically different too.

These Christian messianic groups attribute these missing items to Christ’s salvific role-- and to the extent that a future Temple may actually be built around the Second Coming of Christ, I actually agree with them. In fact, it seems to me that virtually every one of these changes has something to do with the role of the Messiah as claimed within Christianity toward Jesus.

What I’m curious to know is what the Jewish Rabbis felt concerning why these items were missing. It does seem extremely odd to leave these items out-- especially considering that the information in Ezekial actually describes the temple so accurately that people have made precise maps with it. In fact, many other items are described in great detail and God himself says to…

…make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement, its exits and entrances—its whole design and all its regulations and laws. Write these down before them so that they may be faithful to its design and follow all its regulations.

 

[Valke2]

There’s some Christian groups which seem to be actively engaged in financially assisting Jewish people in building the Temple. And, from a strictly Jewish perspective, they’ve pointed point out a few things that caught my attention. More specifically, there seems to be eight things missing in Ezekial’s temple that were formerly included in the previous temples.

For example, 1) the wall of partition, 2) the court of women, 3) the laver, 4) the golden lampstand, 5) the table of showbread, 6) the altar of incense, 7) the veil, and 8) the ark of the covenant are not mentioned at all.

What I’m curious to know is what the Jewish Rabbis felt concerning why these items were missing. It does seem extremely odd to leave these items out-- especially considering that the information in Ezekial actually describes the temple so accurately that people have made precise maps with it. In fact, many other items are described in great detail and God himself says to…

That they are not mentioned does not mean that they will not be part of the Temple. I haven’t found a lot of jewish commentary on this subject. Which may mean that it isn’t a big deal for us or that I need to look some more.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I’m not sure if St. Irenaeus connected the temple in Ezekiel in anyway with the ‘end times’ so to speak. But he does seem to speak of some rebuilt Temple under the control of anti-Christ…

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months and will sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire” (ibid., 5:30:4).

If this is accurate, if indeed a Temple will be built again, I am left wondering if the Temple will actually be ovetaken by a false Christ before the true Christ returns.

More importantly, I am wondering if this Temple that Irenaeus speaks of is in some way a reference to the Temple spoken of in Ezekiel.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

That they are not mentioned does not mean that they will not be part of the Temple.

True. But it does seem to be a rather large set of details to leave out of this most remarkable of prophecies.

Valke2:

I haven’t found a lot of jewish commentary on this subject. Which may mean that it isn’t a big deal for us or that I need to look some more.

I think Rambam commented on it. I’ll look to see what I can find.

Admitedly, this is a topic that I haven’t delved into in great depth.

The book I’ve been reading was actually purchased back in 1999, around the time when I was leaving Lutheranism and going into the Catholic Church-- I searched a lot of denominations around this time.

I read it and highlighted significant portions that I found interesting, and then basically left it on the shelf for years. Although I’ve skimmed thorugh it a few times since then, I’ve only recently picked it up again when my mother asked me some questions regarding the Jewish concept of the Third Temple.

It’s actually a facinating topic which seems to have at least some backdrop within Christian eschatological thought over the last 2,000 years.

 

[Fidelis]

The Catholic view is that, since the Old Testament sacrifices were made obsolete with the coming of Christ and his definitive sacrifice on the Cross, there will be no rebuilding of the Temple. Christ himself predicted the total destruction of the Temple, but did not even hint that it would ever be rebuilt. When the curtain of the Holy of Holies was rent in two, that was the end of it. Looking for evidences of such a thing in the Old Testament as if it were a code or puzzle to be cracked is an ignorant and childish abuse of Sacred Scripture.

In the early years of the Church, the Emperor Julian the Apostate tried to prove Christ was a false prophet by trying to rebuild the Temple. A Christian bishop told everyone not to worry, because Christ had predicted it would never rise again. Sure enough, when construction was attempted, fire came from the ground and earthquakes killed the workers, so the project was abandoned, and the words of the Lord were vindicated.

If the Temple were rebuilt, what would be the use of offering sacrifices there anyway, since Christ’s sacrifice has redeemed the world once and for all? It would be ritualistic and useless.

I really get tired of uninformed Catholics discussing this in these forums, as if this line of thinking had any value whatsoever. I can somewhat understand Protestants falling for these Dispensationalist End Time speculations, but Catholics should know better and not even dignify this erroneous doctrine with discussion. It is at heart anti-Catholic and unbibilcal and the Church has definitively defined against it. Here are some resources to help you develop some discernment in these areas:

catholic.com/library/rapture.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0011fea2.asp
catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0211fea3.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0001fea1.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9510ntg.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0209fea5.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0304bt.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9409fea4.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9410fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009bite.asp
carl-olson.com/rapture_articles.html

Finally, here are some resources to help you develop a well-balanced Catholic understanding of the Book of Revelation, biblical prophecy, and eschatology. All of these are HIGHLY recommended:

The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Book of Revelation
The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Major Prophets
The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Minor Prophets
amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/102-2381711-9848916?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=navarre+bible

The End: The Book of Revelation, tape/CD series and Study Guide by Dr. Scott Hahn.
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=169

The Lamb’s Supper, by Dr. Scott Hahn.
amazon.com/gp/product/0385496591/sr=8-1/qid=1148926012/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2381711-9848916?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Rapture: The End Times Fiction that Leaves Truth Behind, by David Curie
sophiainstitute.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SIP&Product_Code=72-5&Category_Code=Current

Revelation Revealed, tapes/CD series by Michael Barber
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=909

Introduction To Prophecy, CD set by Steve Wood
familylifecenter.net/cart/product_detail.cfm?Id=613

 

[Valke2]

True. But it does seem to be a rather large set of details to leave out of this most remarkable of prophecies.

But why could these things not be considered to have been left out, under Judaism, because they would no longer be needed when the messianic age is here? From your perspective that would be when Jesus returns. But from ours, it would be when the Messiah appears.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

But why could these things not be considered to have been left out, under Judaism, because they would no longer be needed when the messianic age is here?

I don’t know. That’s why I’ve been asking many questions as to what, in the view of Judiasm, the Messiah will accomplish when he comes.

It seems to me that, based on what I’ve heard from the Judaic perspective that you and still small voice presented, that the coming of the Messiah will be more of a sign of an age of peace rather than the Messiah himself actually accomplishing anything directly.

Maybe I’ve misunderstood this part.

Valke2:

From your perspective that would be when Jesus returns. But from ours, it would be when the Messiah appears.

True. But for the Christian perspective it seems to make a lot of sense that these items are missing in the pre-Christian era writings which prophesies of the coming of Messiah.

For example, the wall of partition between Jew and Genitle is no longer necessary from a Christian perspective. According to Ephesians 2:14-15… “…he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.” But there appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same belief as far as I can tell.

Likewise, the court of women appears to be no longer necessary from a Christian perspective either. According to Galatians 3:27-28… “…all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” But there again appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same belief as far as I can tell.

Similarly, the laver also appears to be no longer necessary from Christian perspective. The laver was used by the priests for ceremonial cleansing before they entered the Temple to carry out their priestly service. Form the Christian perspective, however, through the sacrament of baptism as recorded in Hebrews 9:14, the blood of Jesus has provided sufficient spiritual cleansing for God’s people. But there again appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same justification for this laver to no longer be used as far as I can tell.

The golden lampstand is yet another item missing from the Temple described by Ezekiel-- and this appears to be yet another item that will no longer be necessary from a Christian perspective. According to John 8:12, Christ himself said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” But there yet again appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same belief about the Jewish Messiah becoming our light for us far as I can tell.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.

The table of showbread, again from the Catholic perspective, is obviously no longer required to be strictly within the Temple itself. Christ himself, through the Eucharist, becomes the very bread of life for us. According to John 6:35, Jesus said, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.” And, yes, this is yet another item missing from the Temple described by Ezekiel. And there again appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same belief about the Jewish Messiah becoming the bread for us as far as I can tell.

The very same thing appears to be true of the altar of incense too. In regards to Christ, according to Hebrews 7:25… “…he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” That the saints also participate in this intercessory prayers is also indicated in the Apocalypse 8:4 when John says, “The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.” Consequently, when we are present before the Lord within a beautific vision, since the Lord is there before us, this kind of intercessory prayer will most likely become superfluous. But there, nonetheless, again appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same belief about the Jewish Messiah directly interceeding for us before God as far as I can tell.

I’ve covered most of these things in good detail but the same thing could be said of the veil and the ark of the covenant too.

In regards to the veil, when Jesus died on the crossm the veil was torn from top to bottom. Isaiah mentioned that… “… On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations.” Some Christians interpret this to be Christ’s removing of the veil from within the Temple. But there again appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same belief about the Jewish Messiah directly removing the veil as far as I can tell.

Finally, from a Catholic perspective, Mary as the God Bearer, is believed to be the literal Ark of the Covenant from within Christianity…

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

And yet the Hebrew Scriptures, speaking of the literal Ark of the Covenant often carried into battle and often residing within the Holy of Holies, says…

In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land," declares the LORD, "men will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made.

So there again appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same belief about the Jewish Messiah directly bringing back the Ark of the Covenent, replacing it, or even building a new one as far as I can tell.

More to the point, however, despite all these missing items, Ezekiel appearntly did provide many details regarding the temple, including the doors, the number of panels on each door, and the carvings on each of the panels for example.

So he does appear to be very careful to give all the necessary details-- and his careful adherence to these details makes the deliberate ommision of these other ‘key items’ very unlikely in my opinion.

And I haven’t even come to modifications of the altar of sacrifice recorded by Ezekiel yet.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The Catholic view is that, since the Old Testament sacrifices were made obsolete with the coming of Christ and his definitive sacrifice on the Cross, there will be no rebuilding of the Temple.

It is soundly Catholic and distinctively true that Christ and his definitive sacrifice on the Cross remove any necessity of rebuilding of Temple. But it is not true, nor has it always been true, that the thoughts of all Catholic theologians believe that no future Temple will ever be rebuilt.

Many did beleive that another temple – the ‘abominable temple’ – would be rebuilt prior to the time of Christ’s coming. They also beleived that anti-Christ would institgate it’s rebuilding and proclaim himself God from it.

Fidelis:

In the early years of the Church, the Emperor Julian the Apostate tried to prove Christ was a false prophet by trying to rebuild the Temple. A Christian bishop told everyone not to worry, because Christ had predicted it would never rise again. Sure enough, when construction was attempted, fire came from the ground and earthquakes killed the workers, so the project was abandoned, and the words of the Lord were vindicated.

Aside from people never being able to actually rebuild a temple, this is actually what I believe too-- Julian the Apostate brought destruction upon himself for trying to assume the role that only God himself could do.

As far as I understand, the temple in Ezekial is probably based on the Heavenly Temple that Paul talked about here.

Where exactly did Christ say another Temple would never be rebuilt?

Fidelis:

If the Temple were rebuilt, what would be the use of offering sacrifices there anyway, since Christ’s sacrifice has redeemed the world once and for all?

It would be ritualistic and useless.

I agree. See my replies above.

But what is the Catholic opinion on the book of Ezekiel?

That’s really what I’m looking for more than anything else.

Fidelis:

I really get tired of uninformed Catholics discussing this in these forums, as if this line of thinking had any value whatsoever. I can somewhat understand Protestants falling for these Dispensationalist End Time speculations, but Catholics should know better and not even dignify this erroneous doctrine with discussion. It is at heart anti-Catholic and unbibilcal and the Church has definitively defined against it.

I don’t think this is fair.

Are you saying that I’m promoting anti-Catholic and unbibilcal doctrines, or that I’m an uninformed Catholic for discussing this in these forums?

I’m simply asking questions here in a non-Catholic forum to get other perspectives and contrast them to Catholic thinking.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.

Fidelis:

Here are some resources to help you develop some discernment in these areas:

catholic.com/library/rapture.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0011fea2.asp
catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0211fea3.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0001fea1.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9510ntg.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0209fea5.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0304bt.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9409fea4.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9410fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009bite.asp
carl-olson.com/rapture_articles.html

But I don’t believe in a rapture of the church anyway. I’ve never subsribed to Lehey’s theology either. I beleive that Jesus is the primal sacrifice that we participate with in the Eucharist too.

I don’t understand why you’ve provided all these links.

Unless you’re saying that the idea that a future will be rebuilt links me with these people, I don’t, as far as I can tell, subscribe to any of the ideas which are denounced in them.

Fidelis:

Finally, here are some resources to help you develop a well-balanced Catholic understanding of the Book of Revelation, biblical prophecy, and eschatology. All of these are HIGHLY recommended:

The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Book of Revelation
The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Major Prophets
The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Minor Prophets
amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/102-2381711-9848916?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=navarre+bible

The End: The Book of Revelation, tape/CD series and Study Guide by Dr. Scott Hahn.
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=169

The Lamb’s Supper, by Dr. Scott Hahn.
amazon.com/gp/product/0385496591/sr=8-1/qid=1148926012/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2381711-9848916?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Rapture: The End Times Fiction that Leaves Truth Behind, by David Curie
sophiainstitute.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SIP&Product_Code=72-5&Category_Code=Current

Revelation Revealed, tapes/CD series by Michael Barber
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=909

Introduction To Prophecy, CD set by Steve Wood
familylifecenter.net/cart/product_detail.cfm?Id=613

Thanks…I guess.

What exactly are you saying?

 

[Valke2]

I don’t know. That’s why I’ve been asking many questions as to what, in the view of Judiasm, the Messiah will accomplish when he comes.

It seems to me that, based on what I’ve heard from the Judaic perspective that you and still small voice presented, that the coming of the Messiah will be more of a sign of an age of peace rather than the Messiah himself actually accomplishing anything directly.

Maybe I’ve misunderstood this part.

True. But for the Christian perspective it seems to make a lot of sense that these items are missing in the pre-Christian era writings which prophesies of the coming of Messiah.

For example, the wall of partition between Jew and Genitle is no longer necessary from a Christian perspective. According to Ephesians 2:14-15… “…he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.” But there appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same belief as far as I can tell.

Likewise, the court of women appears to be no longer necessary from a Christian perspective either. According to Galatians 3:27-28… “…all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” But there again appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same belief as far as I can tell.

Similarly, the laver also appears to be no longer necessary from Christian perspective. The laver was used by the priests for ceremonial cleansing before they entered the Temple to carry out their priestly service. Form the Christian perspective, however, through the sacrament of baptism as recorded in Hebrews 9:14, the blood of Jesus has provided sufficient spiritual cleansing for God’s people. But there again appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same justification for this laver to no longer be used as far as I can tell.

The golden lampstand is yet another item missing from the Temple described by Ezekiel-- and this appears to be yet another item that will no longer be necessary from a Christian perspective. According to John 8:12, Christ himself said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” But there yet again appears to be nothing within Judaim which reflects this same belief about the Jewish Messiah becoming our light for us far as I can tell.

continued…

But from the Christian point of view, why would it be necessary to rebuild the Temple at all?

 

[Saint_Michael]

But from the Christian point of view, why would it be necessary to rebuild the Temple at all?

Many people believe the gathering of the Jewish people in Israel is a precursor to the 2nd coming of Jesus. They believe the building of the third Temple coupled with Israel’s return are foretold in Revelation (which they are, but opinions vary greatly on interpretation of the Book of Revelation).

Essentially many Christians have a vested interest in seeing the 3rd Temple built because they believe it is prophesied in Revelation and will usher in the tribulation period and eventual return of Christ.

 

[Valke2]

There are a couple of things about this prophecy that do not seem to jibe with the Christian concept that it somehow proves Jesus (based on what is not included in the design of the Temple).

Much of the descirption of the Temple centers around sacrifices and the slaughter of the animals, as well as the sin offering. There’s a description of the 8 tables used for the slaughter of the animals that are to be burnt offerings. (see 40:38-43).

It also provides for the the Levites to be priests again. The main function of the priest in the Temple was to offer sacrifices.

Since christians believe that “there is no longer any offering for sin”, I don’t see how this prophecy advances the argument that the design of the third temple is somehow influenced by the coming of Jesus. All this would seem to belie the very idea of Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice for our trespass, sins, etc.

 

[Fidelis]

But it is not true, nor has it always been true, that the thoughts of all Catholic theologians believe that no future Temple will ever be rebuilt.

Many did beleive that another temple – the ‘abominable temple’ – would be rebuilt prior to the time of Christ’s coming. They also beleived that anti-Christ would institgate it’s rebuilding and proclaim himself God from it.

This has a long and interesting history and has been discussed many, many times in these forums. Suffice to say, a number of the very early Church Fathers had this opinion, but it by Augustine’s time had pretty much died out. Many of these same ECF’s expected the parousia at the end of the first millenia.

Are you saying that I’m promoting anti-Catholic and unbibilcal doctrines, or that I’m an uninformed Catholic for discussing this in these forums?

I’m simply asking questions here in a non-Catholic forum to get other perspectives and contrast them to Catholic thinking.

Not at all! I was speaking of those Catholics in general that promote mitigated millenarianism, which has been officially condemned by the Church, not you personally. The attached information was for them. Sorry if you thought I was lumping you together with those who hold this error.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

But from the Christian point of view, why would it be necessary to rebuild the Temple at all?

From the Catholic view (my view), there is no reason that I can think of. From a Catholic perspective, the Temple in Ezekial (I think) is actually more a vision of the heavenly Temple that Christ entered once he completed his sacrifice on the Cross and Ascended back into heaven.

There are many other groups, however, that seem to feel that this temple must be built in preparation for the comng of the Lord. While I respect their thoughts on why the temple is missing these eight items (because Christ apparently fulfills all of them to a T), I don’t think any temple made by human hands on earth will ever fulfill what is expected of the heavenly Temple spoken of in Ezekial.

You quoted before the words of Exodus 15:17…

You shall bring them in and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance, in the establishment of Your residence which You have made, O Eternal, the Sanctuary, G-d, which Your hands have established.

…and I actually agree with this wholeheartedly. I don’t think any human hands will ever build the Temple to the specifications that only God himself could accomplish.

I’ve read somewhat on this before, and I am aware of a sharp disagreement within Judaism about how the Temple would be brought about.

Some feel that the Messiah will rebuild the Temple as far as I can tell-- a sign of the age of peace has finally come. In this way, he will usher in the will of God being spread about the world.

Others feel that only God can build it-- and that any attempt to build it will be akin to an abomination before God himself. They feel that the Temple will literally descend from heaven if I recall correctly.

Of these two Jewish opinions (that I am aware of), I’m more favorable of the second opinion than the first. The second opinion seems to mesh very easilly with Catholic expectations than the first one does. The first opinion seems rather dangerous to me. More to the point, I think the Jews who believe that God will build the temple and bring it to earth are closer to Catholic thoughts than the Jews who believe they will bring it about by their own human hands.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Many people believe the gathering of the Jewish people in Israel is a precursor to the 2nd coming of Jesus. They believe the building of the third Temple coupled with Israel’s return are foretold in Revelation (which they are, but opinions vary greatly on interpretation of the Book of Revelation).

Exactly.

What I get frustrated by with these groups is that they seem to be deliberately sending innocent Jewish people effectively to their deaths.

I don’t think they’re deliberately doing in the snese that they want Jewish people to die. However, if they likewise beleive that anti-Christ may take over this temple and persecute both Jews and Gentiles in the process, it seems to be a likely conclusion even if the so-called “144,000” are protected from death during this time.

Saint_Michael:

Essentially many Christians have a vested interest in seeing the 3rd Temple built because they believe it is prophesied in Revelation and will usher in the tribulation period and eventual return of Christ.

And while I might even agree with them that a Thrid Temple will exist during Christ’s second advent, I certainly do not think that they should be attempting to “force the Lord” to come back in this way.

Their actions remind me very much of Judas attempting to force the Lord’s hand against the Romans-- essentially forcing him into a position where he wil have to either fight back or die at the expense of millions of Jews and Gentiles in the process.

Keep in mind that I don’t think the Lord could actually be tempted in such way. But if they honeslty beleive that their will be a great tribulation prior to the coming of the Lord, it is an inescapable conclusion that they also beleive that many innocent people will be placed in the line of the anti-Christ’s fire prior to Christ’s parousia.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

This has a long and interesting history and has been discussed many, many times in these forums. Suffice to say, a number of the very early Church Fathers had this opinion, but it by Augustine’s time had pretty much died out. Many of these same ECF’s expected the parousia at the end of the first millenia.

It seems to me that St. Augustine (and many other Catholic theologians after him) also, at least in part, believed that Christ would return after 1000 years too.

But that didn’t happen either.

Furthermore, there have been Catholic theologians since this time that have most certainly felt that some Temple would be around when Christ returns. Some are fairly recent at that.

For example, I’ve read this book which was originally printed in 1884with Imprimatur from Edward Charles Fabre, the Bishop of Montreal.
History of AntiChrist:

As soon as he beleives himself master of of the bodies and souls of all peoples, he will decree and proclaim his divinity and establish a new religion. According to the Apostle, he will lift himself up above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God showing himself as if he were God. (2 Thes. 2:4). He will command all peoples to place his status in the public places to be worshipped, the image of the beast whose wound was healed. (Apoc. 13:13-15). “He will sit in the temple of God showing himself as if he were God.” (2 Thes. 2:4). This temple is probably that of Jerusalem, which he will have rebuilt and in which he will have divine honors paid to him. (Damascus, Book 4, Ch. 37). It is then, according to the prophecy of Daniel and in full force of the term, that the abomination of desolation shall be in the temple, seated in the holy place. (Dan 9:27).

…so I’m not sure if it can be fairly said that by Augustine’s time the theory had pretty much died out.

Fidelis:

Not at all! I was speaking of those Catholics in general that promote mitigated millenarianism, which has been officially condemned by the Church, not you personally.

Alright then.

I have to admit that it did sound as if you were addressing me personally to be honest.

But, for the sake of peaceful Catholic unity, I’ll accept your word on this matter in Christ.

Fidelis:

The attached information was for them. Sorry if you thought I was lumping you together with those who hold this error.

And, for the record, I thought they were excellent links. I had already read a few of them before. I read a few more yesterday. And I’m sure I’ll be reading more too as I have time.

I’ve been trying to get ahold of Dr. Hahn’s books for a while. Just last Saturday I went to Catholic book store to find some of his works. I couldn’t find anything by him though. So I settled with Communities of the Last Days, a detailed analysis of the Dead Sea Scrolls in possible relationship to the early Christian Church by by C. Marvin Pate.

If you’ve had it up to your belt buckle with weirdos telling you that the Dead Sea Scrolls are full of stuff refuting Christianity, it’s an extremely good read.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think the Gospel of John gives us a good insight into the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s Temple. I posted this on another thread, but I think it applies here, as well.

On the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, during the Liturgy, the Levites would go down to the pool of Saloom, fill a huge pitcher of water, and proceed back to the temple. They would circle the altar seven times. Then they would pour the water out over the altar and let it wash down onto the floor. This is what’s going on when Jesus stands up and makes this statement, “Let he who thirsts, come to me…” in the Gospel of John… Becomes a little clearer, right? But it goes deeper. This ritual is part of prophecy from the Old Testament. The Scripture comes from Ezekiel 47, which is read in the Jewish Liturgy for this feast. It starts off with Ezekiel being brought to the entrance of the Temple, where he saw “water flowing out from the threshold of the temple towards the east”.

The water was issuing out from under the altar of the temple, the heart of the temple. Ezekiel leaves the altar and starts walking. As he walks, he measures the depth of the water. In verse 3, the water is ankle deep. In verse 4, it is knee deep, then it’s waist deep. In verse 5, it became a river that could only be crossed by swimming. In verse 8, he hears, "This water flows into the eastern district down upon the Arabah (Arabia), and empties into the sea, the salt waters, which it makes it fresh (it cleanses the Dead Sea). Where ever the river goes there’s life. And one of the key themes to John is “Life”. (9) Wherever the river flows, every sort of living creature that can multiply shall live, and there shall be abundant fish, for wherever this water comes the sea shall be made fresh. (10) Fishermen shall be standing along it from En-gedi to Eneglaim, spreading their nets there. Does this bring anything to mind? Jesus called the disciples (fishermen) to become “fishers of men”. It goes on to describe trees that bear fresh fruit every month, for they shall be watered by the flow from the sanctuary. The fruit from trees are the good works of righeous men that are fed by the Holy Spirit.

So, let’s go back to the Jewish Feast. Back in Ezekiel chapter 10, Ezekiel had a vision of the “Shekinah” the Holy Spirit leaving the Temple. The Feast of Tabernacles is the feast of the Temple. It celebrates Solomon when he originally dedicated the Temple, and the “Shekina”, the Glory Cloud of the Holy Spirit descending upon the Temple and remaining there. So in your mind, what are the Jews trying to invoke with the water being poured onto the altar and reading from Ezekiel? The Jews feel that when the Holy Spirit returns to the Temple, it will overflow with this life-giving source of the Holy Spirit (which the water symbolizes) and spread Israel’s glory throughout the land.

With that in mind, let’s look again at what Jesus means when he says, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me”… If we look at Ezekiel, we see that the water will flow from the altar of the Temple, but Jesus says, ***“Scripture has it: ‘From within him rivers of living water shall flow’”.

Why does he say this? In John, 2:18-19, at this the Jews answered and said to him, “What sign can you show us for doing this?”***Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up."What does Jesus mean by saying this? The Temple Jesus is referring to, is His Body. “Destroy this body, and I will raise it up on the third day”, but they did not understand Him. So Jesus is showing the true meaning of Ezekiel. The water, that gives life to everything it touches, is the living water. And Jesus is the Temple from which this living water flows. What is this living water? It is the Life Jesus gives us through the Holy Spirit. The water getting deeper as Ezekiel’s walking away from the Temple represents Time, and the water’s depth increasing as time passes, represents Jesus’ Gospel spreading throughout the World. The Growth of the Church through the Holy Spirit springs from the Sacred Heart of Jesus! John is telling us that Jesus is the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s vision.

John tells us that (vs. 39), “Here he was referring to the Spirit, whom those that came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit as yet, since Jesus had not yet been glorified”. What John is continuing to show is that Jesus is fulfilling the Jewish Festivals, but in ways the ancient Israelites were completely un-prepared for.