Ezekiel's Wheel and the Holy Spirit

[dmwessel]

I’m not arguing that whirlwinds/storms/tempests, etc. aren’t associated with the Spirit of God. They are. What I’m arguing is that your reading of galgal is incorrect. It means wheels everywhere else except in Psalms. And since Psalms is poetry, its use there is poetic.

The translation I use doesn’t translate galgal in Ezekiel as whirlwind, but as wheel. And from what I see, that translation is more correct.

Furthermore, yes, regardless of how you look at it, this is all a vision, and is thus necessarily spiritual. However, the reading of the wheels in the vision as a vision of whirlwinds and not wheels is wrong. He had a vision of wheels.

And even beyond all of that, how do you account for the fact that the text actually distinguishes between the wheels and the spirit of God? How do you account for the obedience of the wheels to the Cherubim? Are you suggesting that God is obedient to His creatures?

It was clearly shown that wheel and whirlwind are the same thing and I don’t know why you’re still arguing that point…and the text is not distinguishing between the wheels and the spirit of God, it mentions them as being synonymous. As for reading into that God is obedient to the Cherubim, it simply said that “wherever the spirit of God went, they went” - in other words, God was doing the leading, in other words, the Cherubim could be found wherever God’s spirit is.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

This song discribes it pretty well. I guess it could be the Holy Ghost.

Ezekiel saw the wheel
Way up in the middle of the air.
Ezekiel saw the wheel
Way in the middle of the air.

    The big wheel runs by faith, 
    And the little wheel runs by the grace of God;
    A wheel in a wheel 
    Way in the middle of the air.

 

[dmwessel]

This song discribes it pretty well. I guess it could be the Holy Ghost.

Ezekiel saw the wheel
Way up in the middle of the air.
Ezekiel saw the wheel
Way in the middle of the air.

    The big wheel runs by faith, 
    And the little wheel runs by the grace of God;
    A wheel in a wheel 
    Way in the middle of the air.

At first I thought this was just nonsense but then I got to thinking about it and I realized the symbolism, and that it can be backed by scripture. Whoever wrote this song, showed a remarkable knowledge of scripture.

Faith is the *big wheel *(that keeps everything turning):
“faith is the substance of things hoped for”
“without faith it is impossible to please Him”
“when He returns will He find faith on the earth”

The *grace of God * is the *little wheel * (that operates as a direct result of faith)

That’s why it’s a wheel within a wheel, because they can’t operate aside from each other.

It’s a marvelous word picture. Thank you for this.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

At first I thought this was just nonsense but then I got to thinking about it and I realized the symbolism, and that it can be backed by scripture. Whoever wrote this song, showed a remarkable knowledge of scripture.

Faith is the *big wheel *(that keeps everything turning):
“faith is the substance of things hoped for”
“without faith it is impossible to please Him”
“when He returns will He find faith on the earth”

The *grace of God * is the little wheel (that operates as a direct result of faith)

That’s why it’s a wheel within a wheel, because they can’t operate aside from each other.

It’s a marvelous word picture. Thank you for this.

Sometimes the simplist things are the most profound. Gospel music has some amazing truth to it.

 

[dmwessel]

Sometimes the simplist things are the most profound. Gospel music has some amazing truth to it.

So true

 

[MrSnaith]

It was clearly shown that wheel and whirlwind are the same thing and I don’t know why you’re still arguing that point…and the text is not distinguishing between the wheels and the spirit of God, it mentions them as being synonymous. As for reading into that God is obedient to the Cherubim, it simply said that “wherever the spirit of God went, they went” - in other words, God was doing the leading, in other words, the Cherubim could be found wherever God’s spirit is.

Ezekiel 1:19 - And when the living creatures went, the wheels also went together by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels also were lifted up with them.

This shows the wheels going wherever the Cherubim go, not the other way around.

Ezekiel 1:20 - Whithersoever the spirit went, thither as the spirit went the wheels also were lifted up withal, and followed it: for the spirit of life was in the wheels.

There is a very clear distinction here between the wheels and the spirit, as the wheels went wherever the spirit went. Not a synonym, but a distinction.

Ezekiel 1:21 - When those went these went, and when those stood these stood, and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels also were lifted up together, and followed them: for the spirit of life was in the wheels.

There is a tri-distinction here between the spirit, the cherubim and the wheels. The “spirit” didn’t show up when the wheels showed up. It was present before the wheels showed up, as seen in:

Ezekiel 1:12 - And every one of them went straight forward: whither the impulse of the spirit was to go, thither they went: and they turned not when they went.

Meanwhile, the wheels don’t show up until:

Ezekiel 1:15 - Now as I beheld the living creatures, there appeared upon the earth by the living creatures one wheel with four faces.

Here’s the whole point: The Cherubim were obedient to the “spirit” and went wherever “sthe impulse of the spirit was to go.” The wheels were obedient to the Cherubim, and went wherever they went. The whole point of Ezekiel 1:19-21 is to demonstrate this hierarchic relationship, while simultaneously recognizing that these creatures were also indwelt by the spirit. But these creatures were themselves not the spirit. The spirit was in them. Unless you want to argue that when the spirit comes to dwell in us we suddenly become the spirit itself! That’s non-sense!

And as for the wheel and the whirlwind clearly being shown to be the same thing, please point me to the passage wherein it is clearly shown, because I can assure you, it is not at all clear.

 

[MrSnaith]

This song discribes it pretty well. I guess it could be the Holy Ghost.

Ezekiel saw the wheel
Way up in the middle of the air.
Ezekiel saw the wheel
Way in the middle of the air.

    The big wheel runs by faith, 
    And the little wheel runs by the grace of God;
    A wheel in a wheel 
    Way in the middle of the air.

Except this isn’t what Ezekiel saw. The “wheel in a wheel” should be undestood as two wheels of the same size joined at the top and bottom perpendicularly. This is to mimic both the form and the directional movement of the Cherubim. Just as the Cherubim had four faces, each facing a different direction (forward, backward, left and right, or north, south, east and west), so too did the wheels have “four faces” (Ezekiel 1:15). This was to reflect the fact that both the wheels and the Cherubim moved only in one of these four directions at a time. This is demonstrated by Ezekiel 1:17 - “When they went, they went by their four parts: and they turned not when they went.”

He didn’t see a big wheel and a little wheel. It’s a nice poem, but it doesn’t at all describe Ezekiel’s vision. The meaning behind it is also very good and true, but not in the context of Ezekiel’s vision.

 

[MrSnaith]

Not to be too bold or insulting, but I knew this was a strange and heretical topic from these words in the original post:

Really? Really!?

1. The Holy Spirit is God. He is almighty, infinite, eternal, and pure spirit. He has no “orbital form” or physical manifestation. At the Baptism of our Lord, He came down “as in” the form of a dove; that is, mysteriously, but not literally. I say this: if the Holy Spirit has some sort of essential physical or material form, he is not God. The Lord God almighty is not of this Universe.
2. We cannot ‘capture the reality of’ the Holy Spirit. God cannot be captured. God is not a pet. God is not a toy. God is not a particle. God is … God.
3. Despite the nonsense theories, the illustrations of Ezekiel are quite nice. There are some interesting interpretations of what the Scripture passage itself means, but the “orbital forms of the Holy Spirit” idea goes way beyond Scripture.

I had the same reaction.

 

[dmwessel]

Ezekiel 1:19 - And when the living creatures went, the wheels also went together by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels also were lifted up with them.

This shows the wheels going wherever the Cherubim go, not the other way around.

Cherubim (angels) are ‘messengers’ - they are delivering the messages of God - thus the wheels (messages from God) follow them.

Ezekiel 1:20 - Whithersoever the spirit went, thither as the spirit went the wheels also were lifted up withal, and followed it: for the spirit of life was in the wheels.

Here perhaps, but certainly not in other verses as I showed you they were used interchangeably. And scripture will not contradict itself.

Ezekiel 1:21 - When those went these went, and when those stood these stood, and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels also were lifted up together, and followed them: for the spirit of life was in the wheels.

You have to first distinguish who or what are those and these.

There is a tri-distinction here between the spirit, the cherubim and the wheels. The “spirit” didn’t show up when the wheels showed up. It was present before the wheels showed up, as seen in:

Ezekiel 1:12 - And every one of them went straight forward: whither the impulse of the spirit was to go, thither they went: and they turned not when they went.

They only went on the impulse of *the spirit *(God is all in all) - they did not precede the spirit.

Meanwhile, the wheels don’t show up until:

Ezekiel 1:15 - Now as I beheld the living creatures, there appeared upon the earth by the living creatures one wheel with four faces.

There’s your problem right there: you match verses with ‘like verses’ and they in turn will explain/interpret the meaning. You’re jumping all over the place, no wonder it’s not cohesive.

And as for the wheel and the whirlwind clearly being shown to be the same thing, please point me to the passage wherein it is clearly shown, because I can assure you, it is not at all clear.

already did that and it was very clear

 

[MrSnaith]

Cherubim (angels) are ‘messengers’ - they are delivering the messages of God - thus the wheels (messages from God) follow them.

In the Jewish Gematria, the wheels are understood to be a different kind or class of angel. I don’t see how you get from the text, anywhere, that the wheels represent messages from God.

Here perhaps, but certainly not in other verses as I showed you they were used interchangeably. And scripture will not contradict itself.

Actually, you attempted to show me. I will explain later why you failed to do so.

You have to first distinguish who or what are those and these.

“Those” are the Cherubim, the only other plurality present in the vision. “These” are the wheels, which can be understood both by the preceding verses (that’s what’s being talked about), as well as from this verse itself, which in the third instance of matching the “these” with the “those” it replaces “those” with “wheels.” Very clear.

They only went on the impulse of *the spirit *(God is all in all) - they did not precede the spirit.

Yes, this is correct.

There’s your problem right there: you match verses with ‘like verses’ and they in turn will explain/interpret the meaning. You’re jumping all over the place, no wonder it’s not cohesive.

I’m not jumping all over the place. I’m taking each verse within the context of the whole vision. I’m sorry I’m not being clearer in my explanation, but I assure you my explanation is cohesive.

already did that and it was very clear

Actually you did not, and it was not. Here’s why.

In your posts #52, 55 and 57 you reference a link to a lexicon which gives three meanings to the term “galgal.” I dispute the second meaning, “whirlwind,” as the only two places in scripture it’s given as meaning whirlwind are Ezekiel 10:13 and Psalm 77:19. Before I get to Psalm 77, let me address these other scriptures. As for the third meaning, straw/chaff/husk, your attempt to equate that with a whirlwind is improper.

The scriptures referenced for the third definition are Isaiah 17:13 and Psalm 83:13. Please see the following links with regard these verses:

biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/17-13.htm
biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/83-13.htm

As you can see, the word “galgal” in these verses is translated as “wheel” and “a rolling thing.” Both of these instances, “galgal” is “like chaff before the wind.” Have you ever seen chaff in wind? It rolls along the ground. “Galgal” is a term, as I said before, that specifically refers to rotation, or rolling things, or rolling/rotating wheels. There is a distinction between the wind/whirlwind and the “galgal” that is being pushed along and spun around by the wind.

In post 57, you reference Ezekiel 1:4 to demonstrate a correlation between the wheels and the wind, but the “wheel” isn’t even in that verse (either as Opan or Galgal), as shown here:

biblehub.com/interlinear/ezekiel/1-4.htm

As for you reference to Ezekiel 10:13, as found in the lexicon that you linked, as being translated as whirlwind, see the following link:

biblehub.com/interlinear/ezekiel/10-13.htm

Galgal here is translated as wheel, and it is in the context of moving wheels, therefore this should be understood as wheels rotating. Moreover, given that in the context of other scriptures, it is the “wind” or the spirit who is pushing the “galgal” along, we should likewise understand the galgal in Ezekiel 10:13 to be the wheels being rolled along by the spirit. But in all of this there remains a distinction between the spirit and the wheels. The spirit moves them, but they are not the spirit. The wind moves the chaff, but the chaff is not the wind.

Finally, we get to Psalm 77:19 (actually it’s Psalm 77:18), the only place that galgal is actually translated as whirlwind.

biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/77-18.htm

Here, I argue that what’s going on here is poetic simile. Have you ever heard the sound that chariot wheels make when they’re rolling along really fast? They rumble loudly, like thunder, and thunder is exactly what the Psalm is talking about here. 77:17 ends with “Your arrows went abroad:” followed by 77:18, which first speaks about the voice of God’s thunder in galgal, and continues with “Your lightning lightened the world.” So this verse is about God sending His “arrows” (lightning bolts) and the sound that accompanies it "the voice of God’s thunder in galgal. It’s poetic simile likening the sound of thunder to the noise of a rolling wheel. The Douay Rheims translates galgal here as wheel. It’s only in more modern translations that galgal here is translated as whirlwind or tempest. I assert that, based on the rest of Scripture, that this is an inaccurate translation.

If you can present a more reasonable reading of it, then I’ll grant the point to you, but as you said, Scripture doesn’t contradict itself. So, why should I grant that since in the rest of Scripture galgal is “wheel,” that contrary to the rest of scripture, this instance should be translated as whirlwind? I don’t see any reason to.

THUS, you have not given clear reason to believe the wheels of Ezekiel’s vision are the Holy Spirit.

 

[dmwessel]

I’m not jumping all over the place. I’m taking each verse within the context of the whole vision. I’m sorry I’m not being clearer in my explanation, but I assure you my explanation is cohesive.

yes, I know and that’s the problem that I see, you have to match* like * verses and those will explain the meaning, you will continue to go around in circles the way you’re going

I dispute the second meaning, “whirlwind,”

this is where our interpreting strategies differ as I am of the mind that God an an all-powerful deity is quite capable of interpreting His own works, without your help or the aid of lexicons. I merely showed you Strong’s to show that wheel is also whirlwind but it’s quite clear in scripture.

As you can see, the word “galgal” in these verses is translated as “wheel” and “a rolling thing.” Both of these instances, “galgal” is “like chaff before the wind.”

No, I have shown you already with Strong’s that wheel is also whirlwind (wind) but you refuse my study help so I quite refuse yours. Not that we need these to prove the exact meaning.

In post 57, you reference Ezekiel 1:4 to demonstrate a correlation between the wheels and the wind, but the “wheel” isn’t even in that verse (either as Opan or Galgal), as shown here:

but whirlwind is, which I showed also meant wheel as they are synonyms

Finally, we get to Psalm 77:19 (actually it’s Psalm 77:18), the only place that galgal is actually translated as whirlwind.

biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/77-18.htm

no it’s not the only place but this should be good enough for you

Here, I argue…If you can present a more reasonable reading of it, then I’ll grant the point to you, but as you said, Scripture doesn’t contradict itself. So, why should I grant that since in the rest of Scripture galgal is “wheel,” that contrary to the rest of scripture, this instance should be translated as whirlwind? I don’t see any reason to.

Not much more to be said if you argue with my sources, as I question your interpreting strategies.

 

[MrSnaith]

this is where our interpreting strategies differ as I am of the mind that God an an all-powerful deity is quite capable of interpreting His own works, without your help or the aid of lexicons. I merely showed you Strong’s to show that wheel is also whirlwind but it’s quite clear in scripture.

Alright. I’m done. If you’re not going to present any kind of reason to demonstrate your point then I’m done. Yes, God can do whatever He likes. What you’ve failed to do is demonstrate that God does in fact interpret galgal as whirlwind.

It’s like you’re taking the Scripture to have been written in English. Oh look, in English is means both whirlwind and wheel, therefore the meanings are synonymous! No. It was written in Hebrew, and for some reason an English translator decided to translate it as wheel in most places and as whirlwind in two. Except, other English translators, and other Latin translators (St. Jerome), translate galgal as wheel across the board. All I’ve tried to do here is demonstrate why that is. And to do that, I showed the context placing of the word as a spinning wheel.

However, if all you’re going to do is say “No, I already showed you” or “No, the Bible is clear on this” or “No, I’ve been clear about this” or “You’re just running around in circles and are employing bad translation techniques” without further explaining what you mean, then I’m done. This is no longer a conversation. It’s me actually taking the time to explain myself, and you coming back with non-explanatory one-liners. I don’t appreciate that, and I will not participate in this blasphemous (as Basilian pointed out) thread anymore.

 

[notforgotten]

Ezekiel’s Vision of God (artist rendition based on scripture)

Ezekiel 1:16 "a wheel in the middle of a wheel"

What Ezekiel describes as “a wheel in the middle of a wheel” is obviously orbital.

Here is a real photograph of the face of a spirit in a supernatural orb:
http://www.extremumspiritum.com/images/2013/07/xmas-orb.jpg
Ezekiel 1:21 "for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels"

         **"for the spirit of the living creature was in the orb"**

What Ezekiel saw with Father God and the Cherubim (living creatures) was orbs.

Note: The Holy Spirit appearing before Ezekiel with Father God and the Cherubim would have appeared as much more than the Holy Spirit in this photo.

 

[notforgotten]

Here’s another artist rendition of Ezekiel’s Vision of God:

 

[notforgotten]

Please notice how these supernatural orbs resemble the eyeball:
http://www.hauntedhovel.com/images/orb9.jpghttp://aashdown.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/eyeball4.jpg
**1 John 5:6 And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

The photograph above is the Spirit of truth looking directly at the camera man while bearing witness to him taking the photograph.

What Ezekiel saw with Father God and the Cherubim was not some lifeless chariot or alien U.F.O., but something far grandeur - the Holt Spirit…in orbital form.

Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing witness in the Holy Spirit.**

 

[notforgotten]

**Also, take note that there is reference to Ezekiel’s wheels having eyes as well. Only it was much more which is to be expected appearing before Ezekiel with Father God and Cherubim.

Ezekiel 1:18 As for their rims, they were so high they were awesome; and their rims were full of eyes, all around the four of them.

Here is a picture of supernatural orbs appearing to have eyes around its’ rims.**
http://intuitartstudio.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/87698845.42103022_large.JPG

 

[notforgotten]

The Holy Spirit Glorifies Christ
**John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

The Holy Spirit glorifies Christ by bearing witness that we belong to Him and declaring this to the Apostles who sit on the thrones of judgement so that we are not judged and may go unto the Father.**

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

 

[notforgotten]

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

[notforgotten]

So we have the supernatural orb appearing before Ezekiel with Father God and Cherubim as in Ezekiel 1:15-21. We have Father God inspiring a young modern day artistic genius to paint “live bubbles” through a dream. We have seen the supernatural orb descending like a dove as in Mathews 3:16. Also, hovering like the Spirit of God over the face of the waters as in Genesis 1:2. And we have seen the supernatural orb bearing witness as the Spirit of truth, as it is written in 1 John 5:6 and glorifying Christ as in John 16:13.

 

[notforgotten]

The Holy Spirit is highly misunderstood in the world today, as is the supernatural orb. This is the same Holy Spirit as in the Holy Bible.