Face value

[LethalMouse]

So there is much said here by some about taking things at face value. While there is much to give the benifit of the doubt, we also know how to use judgement.

People know someone has been a pedo and they do not hire then as a babysitter.

You know a theif you do not leave then alone with your stuff.

We know people, we know what people do. We know that when the husband stops bringing home forget me nots, the wife stops grooming as much. We know that this cycle of negativity leads to something like the Bundys from TV.

As Christians we are generally called to do right regardless of circumstance and reciprocation. So even if your wife/husband is not doing their part we are called not to engage in the descending cycle of matching their poor behavioir but to rise up and lead by example.

However we can ask, evaluate and discover “why”. In many cases if not most, many aspects of the descending cycle are not entirely concious. When a husband due to poor behaviour with no motivation takes his wife for granted, she may later do something negative or just end a positive. Whether it be physical intimacy denial because she is “not in the mood” or it could be as simple as the notes she used to leave in his lunch box.

I think the suggestion that we can justify “I no longer leave notes because I am busy” is often a form of denial and that the truth is she felt negatively due to his poor performance at romance and if we are honest we can see that much is done for reasons that are not on the surface.

Not only that but the assumption that face value “I am busy” would also fail to make the husband realize his failings. He would then likely add to his failings as he no longer recieves his notes which inevitably prompts more negative feom his wife. We enter a world where at some point the initiator of the negative is no longer relevant as we just have two bad people

Not only can this be prevelant in sonething like a marriage but in discernment. As to take everything your date says at face value can set you up for encountering motives unseen and motives even near unknown by the opposing party, as again denial is a factor. Whether he/she has things they stickto out of fear of commitment or some other negative emotion, to assune their “justification” or reason for such is face value accurate is dangerous and as foolish as hiring the pedo to babysit your kids.

I think many here say trust and clise your eyes.

While I would say the old adage “trust but verify” would be a far more functional version of both giving the benifit of the doubt while not endangering oneself etc…

 

[SilverShadow22]

I see that lots of people have taken a peek, but no one answered.

I wonder why?

 

[RPRPsych]

When I saw the thread title, all I could think was “Are we discussing Phil Collins here”?

And yes, prudence is the mother of all virtues.

 

[PhiloMed]

I see that lots of people have taken a peek, but no one answered.

I wonder why?

Because we have no idea what the question is.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Because we have no idea what the question is.

The OP is totally nonsensical.

 

[Padres1969]

The OP is totally nonsensical.

Yeah I’ve no idea what the question was… so it’s kind of hard to answer.

 

[LethalMouse]

Yeah I’ve no idea what the question was… so it’s kind of hard to answer.

Not really a direct question, more a outlook and topic for discussion.

It is a bleed over from a divergent topic that would side step far from the original thread that some are aware of.

They essentially base their premises off the theory that per my metaphor

“I stopped leaving notes because I am busy”
Is a true statement 9/10 times

The other camp essentially sees that the sentence really has the underlying cause of the husbands actions at least 7/10 times if not more.

It is a topic of whether face value is true more often than not

Or if human nature leaves much lying beneath the surface.

[And note this works visa versa, not an accusation to the motives of any gender specific. It was just an example. The crux is the nature of ALL humans to do this form of false face value explanations]

 

[EasterJoy]

I see that lots of people have taken a peek, but no one answered.

I wonder why?

His premise assumes there is no direct communication nor any legitimate ways of lodging complaints in a Christian marriage.

Answer: You marry someone with whom you can be honest, with whom you have a demonstrated ability to work out differences, a person who has treated you with integrity and who brings you out as your best version of yourself, not just someone who puts on a good face to make a good impression. Oh, and if you’re wrong, apologize, even if you are convinced you are not the “most wrong.” Avoid blaming; look for solutions, instead. Take the secret of a long marriage from the man married 60 years: Look in the mirror from time to time and say, “Yeah, well, you’re no great prize, yourself.” Those have been very productive strategies for us.

If you don’t know what productive complaining between spouses even looks like, read John Gottman’s books on communication in marriage before you go off to “discern” anything. I don’t know what else to tell him, and based on previous threads I expect him to argue with me, so I had thought I wouldn’t even throw two bits in, but there are the two bits.

He can take that advice or leave it. Free advice is worth about what you paid for it. We all find our own way and there are many ways to bake a cake. I’ve been married over 25 years and I have zero intention of looking for a new husband if I’m left a widow. I don’t want any advice on how to find a spouse or run a marriage, so I guess I’m done here. (That wasn’t so hard, I suppose.)

If I misread the first post and completely missed the point of the question, my apologies. I’m still done, though.

 

[RPRPsych]

I love tacos.

 

[LethalMouse]

I love tacos.

I do too

 

[SilverShadow22]

Why is everyone dumping on him just for providing food for thought?

 

[RPRPsych]

I do too

Well, that’s something we can take at face value! (Including stuffing one’s face with them.)

 

[LethalMouse]

His premise assumes there is no direct communication nor any legitimate ways of lodging complaints in a Christian marriage.

Answer: You marry someone with whom you can be honest, with whom you have a demonstrated ability to work out differences, a person who has treated you with integrity and who brings you out as your best version of yourself, not just someone who puts on a good face to make a good impression. Oh, and if you’re wrong, apologize, even if you are convinced you are not the “most wrong.” Avoid blaming; look for solutions, instead. Take the secret of a long marriage from the man married 60 years: Look in the mirror from time to time and say, “Yeah, well, you’re no great prize, yourself.” Those have been very productive strategies for us.

If you don’t know what productive complaining between spouses even looks like, read John Gottman’s books on communication in marriage before you go off to “discern” anything. I don’t know what else to tell him, and based on previous threads I expect him to argue with me, so I had thought I wouldn’t even throw two bits in, but there are the two bits.

He can take that advice or leave it. Free advice is worth about what you paid for it. We all find our own way and there are many ways to bake a cake. I’ve been married over 25 years and I have zero intention of looking for a new husband if I’m left a widow. I don’t want any advice on how to find a spouse or run a marriage, so I guess I’m done here. (That wasn’t so hard, I suppose.)

If I misread the first post and completely missed the point of the question, my apologies. I’m still done, though.

My bad kept calling you she/her in other threads lol.

And I have what? I posted far more positive agreements to you than we have disagreed… just mean one thread disagree and I feel the ire? I have quoted you as an examole of my own point before… it hurts…lol.

And I don’t disagree with you here… I am saying the same should be done.

I am saying what excuses people are using to counter following YOUR advise here. And the methods we as humans can use to convince ourselves we are following your advice while not.

You said “instead of blaming look for solutions”

I am simply saying if we trick ourselves into “i am just busy” we can not then have our spouse even know there is a problem with a solution to be found. Or they may try to help us get time and we will have a new excuse etc etc…and we will trick our spouses and possibly ourselves into solving problems that do not exist because we fall prey to this denial of any true cause.

 

[LethalMouse]

Why is everyone dumping on him just for providing food for thought?

If you discuss potentials of denial, one runs the risk of seeing some.

If one sees some they feel bad about themselves.

We live in the world of feel goods.

 

[LethalMouse]

Why are you not in better shape:

Most people: “welll umm this that and the other thing”

Me: “because I eat too much deliciousness and don’t work out enough”

Does this mean I don’t denial? No, I occasionally catch its attempts at creeping in. And occasionally realize it made its way for a short while. But I root it out, I listen for what could be a reason my words don’t match truth.

If you wish to discuss elements of denial I look on in detail to see if any have reared its head in me, bc I fear being in denial more than feeling bad.

 

[EasterJoy]

My bad kept calling you she/her in other threads lol.

And I have what? I posted far more positive agreements to you than we have disagreed… just mean one thread disagree and I feel the ire? I have quoted you as an examole of my own point before… it hurts…lol.

And I don’t disagree with you here… I am saying the same should be done.

I am saying what excuses people are using to counter following YOUR advise here. And the methods we as humans can use to convince ourselves we are following your advice while not.

You said “instead of blaming look for solutions”

I am simply saying if we trick ourselves into “i am just busy” we can not then have our spouse even know there is a problem with a solution to be found. Or they may try to help us get time and we will have a new excuse etc etc…and we will trick our spouses and possibly ourselves into solving problems that do not exist because we fall prey to this denial of any true cause.

Just to clarify: That was general marital advice, the kind of thing I tell anyone asking me about marriage, not something aimed at you. My other favorite is: “Be careful who you marry. You may be able to divorce your spouse, but an ex is forever.” That is to say that a invalid attempt at marriage is something devoutly to be avoided, but I think you’re very much on to that.

One of the advantages of a marriage with good communication is that you give someone the standing to call you on your BS–which you call “denial,” but in psychological parlance denial is technically a matter hidden far more in the subconscious than what I mean and what I think you mean. You’re talking about a fairly transparent self-con job, not real denial or repression, which are matters for a professional. Well, most of us find that a friend who we will allow to call us on our self-con jobs is a treasure. As you point out, we all need that from time to time. If you can accept that from your wife, have the common sense to prize it.

Look for someone whose criticism you can accept. Learn to give criticism in a way that a wife is likely to find acceptable, and look for someone you can complain to in a constructive way that you both feel good about when the solution is found. That’s all I was saying. As for other people and their con jobs, pay as little attention as you can to them, except in that file that reminds you who you do or do not want to form alliances with that require real trust and involve important consequences if there is bad faith. Otherwise, try not to concern yourself with the culpability of others; it is a soul-sucking habit, as any of us who have indulged in it can tell you.

 

[LethalMouse]

Just to clarify: That was general marital advice, the kind of thing I tell anyone asking me about marriage, not something aimed at you. My other favorite is: “Be careful who you marry. You may be able to divorce your spouse, but an ex is forever.” That is to say that a invalid attempt at marriage is something devoutly to be avoided, but I think you’re very much on to that.

One of the advantages of a marriage with good communication is that you give someone the standing to call you on your BS–which you call “denial,” but in psychological parlance denial is technically a matter hidden far more in the subconscious than what I mean and what I think you mean. You’re talking about a fairly transparent self-con job, not real denial or repression, which are matters for a professional. Well, most of us find that a friend who we will allow to call us on our self-con jobs is a treasure. As you point out, we all need that from time to time. If you can accept that from your wife, have the common sense to prize it.

Look for someone whose criticism you can accept. Learn to give criticism in a way that a wife is likely to find acceptable, and look for someone you can complain to in a constructive way that you both feel good about when the solution is found. That’s all I was saying. As for other people and their con jobs, pay as little attention as you can to them, except in that file that reminds you who you do or do not want to form alliances with that require real trust and involve important consequences if there is bad faith. Otherwise, try not to concern yourself with the culpability of others; it is a soul-sucking habit, as any of us who have indulged in it can tell you.

I would like to not pay attention but where my free time intersects this form of convo, if someone has commited a “conjob” or most importantly is being sold and taught how to… should we not care of the well being of others?

In some of these issues the teaching of some posters is to embrace and send others into the den of cons.

I consider it one of the most dangerous teachings available.

 

[lifeandhope]

Not really a direct question, more a outlook and topic for discussion.

It is a bleed over from a divergent topic that would side step far from the original thread that some are aware of.

They essentially base their premises off the theory that per my metaphor

“I stopped leaving notes because I am busy”
Is a true statement 9/10 times

The other camp essentially sees that the sentence really has the underlying cause of the husbands actions at least 7/10 times if not more.

It is a topic of whether face value is true more often than not

Or if human nature leaves much lying beneath the surface.

[And note this works visa versa, not an accusation to the motives of any gender specific. It was just an example. The crux is the nature of ALL humans to do this form of false face value explanations]

There is almost always more beneath the surface. As a psychotherapist, I have made this my life’s study: behavior, motivation, projections, subconscious underpinnings, etc. We are a complex combination of emotions, cognitions, motivations to self-protect, and we are heavily influenced by our past experiences (especially trauma) as well as our physiology. Hormones, serotonin, epinephrine, dopamine, to name a few all interact with each other depending on levels and health in general. Then there are influencers in our external environment, the relationships and people we interact with regularly, intelligence level, emotional intelligence level, education, and personality. Cultural and social influencers may support or discourage expression of personal thought or emotions. Some people tend to be very introspective, intuitive, and highly aware of the things that lay below the surface–both in themselves and others. Some people are clueless. Also consider all the pharmaceutical interactions and influences that effect people, or what we’ve recently been discovering in the neurobiological fields of study, and the changing social norms. A minor example of how physiology can effect a person’s behavior and communications: with the past 16 years of dealing with brain and spinal cord tumors and pancreatic cancer, I can attest to the powerful influence of pain, fatigue, neurochemisty (which always goes wacky for 6-9 months after a brain surgery), and diminished health can vastly change how I interact with others. Or like after giving birth and the extreme hormone drop: I was happier than ever but couldn’t stop extreme anxiety and crying for a couple of weeks until things leveled out. It was almost funny. Almost.

I am a straight shooter and one can typically take what I say at face value. But, considering all the physical, spiritual, cognitive, emotional, environmental, and many other influencers I’m neglecting to mention, do I even know what I mean exactly when I say something? Unless I pay close attention to what is going on under the still waters, I can miss my true intentions and the full meaning behind what I say. Most people don’t ever think deeply enough, or care to think and evaluate themselves on a deeper level. All this to say, I don’t take anything at face value, I consider past and patterns of behavior as predictors of current and future intentions, but I also don’t psychoanalyze everyone and assume that I cannot accept a statement at face value. Intuition, discernment, wisdom, prayer, and reliance on the Holy Spirit’s guidance is the key to understanding oneself and each other.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Speaking for myself, my face is priceless.

 

[LethalMouse]

There is almost always more beneath the surface. As a psychotherapist, I have made this my life’s study: behavior, motivation, projections, subconscious underpinnings, etc. We are a complex combination of emotions, cognitions, motivations to self-protect, and we are heavily influenced by our past experiences (especially trauma) as well as our physiology. Hormones, serotonin, epinephrine, dopamine, to name a few all interact with each other depending on levels and health in general. Then there are influencers in our external environment, the relationships and people we interact with regularly, intelligence level, emotional intelligence level, education, and personality. Cultural and social influencers may support or discourage expression of personal thought or emotions. Some people tend to be very introspective, intuitive, and highly aware of the things that lay below the surface–both in themselves and others. Some people are clueless. Also consider all the pharmaceutical interactions and influences that effect people, or what we’ve recently been discovering in the neurobiological fields of study, and the changing social norms. A minor example of how physiology can effect a person’s behavior and communications: with the past 16 years of dealing with brain and spinal cord tumors and pancreatic cancer, I can attest to the powerful influence of pain, fatigue, neurochemisty (which always goes wacky for 6-9 months after a brain surgery), and diminished health can vastly change how I interact with others. Or like after giving birth and the extreme hormone drop: I was happier than ever but couldn’t stop extreme anxiety and crying for a couple of weeks until things leveled out. It was almost funny. Almost.

I am a straight shooter and one can typically take what I say at face value. But, considering all the physical, spiritual, cognitive, emotional, environmental, and many other influencers I’m neglecting to mention, do I even know what I mean exactly when I say something? Unless I pay close attention to what is going on under the still waters, I can miss my true intentions and the full meaning behind what I say. Most people don’t ever think deeply enough, or care to think and evaluate themselves on a deeper level. All this to say, I don’t take anything at face value, I consider past and patterns of behavior as predictors of current and future intentions, but I also don’t psychoanalyze everyone and assume that I cannot accept a statement at face value. Intuition, discernment, wisdom, prayer, and reliance on the Holy Spirit’s guidance is the key to understanding oneself and each other.

Ah since I am crass I really should hire a ghost writer lol… I should have had you make this thread