Facing East and the Altar/Novus Ordo

[malphono]

You guys fuss too much about the placement of the altar and which way the priest faces. Priests, religious and theologians don’t fuss about it as much as you guys do.

I’m not getting into this thread, but you’d be surprised.

 

[drforjc]

A priest always faces east because the altar itself is liturgical east.

It does not matter what direction on the compass the priest is facing or whether he is ad orientum or versus populum. The altar is where the Son of God rises at each Mass. The altar is where the Light of the World enters creation. As long as the priest is facing the altar, he is facing liturgical east.

You have seen it hundreds of times. You see it at every Mass.

-Tim-

If this is true, why is it that most early churches went to great pains to literally orient their church buildings? See Lang, Michael Turning Towards the Lord (Ignatius Press)

Joseph Ratzinger, in The Spirit of the Liturgy (Ignatius Press), also sees meaning in the celebrant facing the same direction as the people and relates it to “liturgical east.”

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think it depends on the layout of the building. There is nothing worse than a priest celebrating eastward facing at a forward altar. But in those few Catholic churches where a high altar has been retained, it seems foolish not to celebrate as originally intended. There is something about integrity of liturgial space that often gets missed.

Really? Facing East (by which you and I both understand to mean the same thing) at a freestanding altar can be quite excellent.

 

[Rich_C]

The monks at the Cistercian monastery were I was on vocation retreat all left the chior, walked into the sanctuary, gathered around the altar and the priest said the Liturgy of the Eucharist. This is common. It is not new and was done with both freestanding and high altars.

This doesn’t sound like what I’ve read of Medieval Masses. Making a ring around the altar instead of staying in the choir stalls? I would bet dollars to donuts that this is in fact, a recent experiment in that monastery.

 

[Rich_C]

I argue the point only because I am a fan of truth and don’t like it when someone says something very old is a new innovation… I just like truth, that’s all.

-Tim-

Same here, Tim. In this case I am convinced you’re spreading an inaccurate historical picture, that would place certain a modern phenomenon in the past where it never existed.

Please note: I am not talking about table altars and I believe you’re the one who brought them up. That’s a completely different issue and you’re totally right that table altars are very old indeed. No argument from me. It’s merely your point about priests facing north, south or west for hundreds of years that I dispute. Everything I’ve ever read says this was not so, until about 1964. Not in the Roman Rite.

Further note that I am not saying the Church should do this or do that, or that this or that is bad. I’m merely talking history here. I spent four years studying it and I always contest bad history when I see it.

Even in your article, father says that while it’s fine for the priest to face a direction other than East, that doing so is a modern thing:

It can be asked why, if the altar is not orientated in any particular direction except, perhaps, upwards, being the meeting place between the Church and the Tri-une God, *it has been traditionally placed at the eastern end of a church building, so that all who use it are facing East. * The answer is liturgical symbolism. The eastward position links these three holy places together: the altars in the Jerusalem temple and the altar in the heavenly temple are linked with the visible altar on which Mass is celebrated. However, it remains true that the links are there, even when *the eastern position has been abandoned in favour of the modern lay-out. *

By the way, I learned a lot from the article. Thanks for posting it.

 

[TimothyH]

I think that gathering around the altar is more common in Eastern Churches and the Coptic Church as can be seen in the photo in the link I provided.

Benedictine monastics never really lost that “Eastern” feel. It is one of the reasons why I am so attracted to Cistercian spirituality. There is a sense of mystery which they don’t try to explain, and they accept that it will always defy explanation with an almost matter-of-fact air, very naturally. They don’t freak out every time something can’t be explained with human reason. Instead they shrug their shoulders, smile and say, “That’s God for ya!” and try to enter into it rather than understand it.

Anyway, it was a privilege to be there with the Brothers for that short time, and to be called Brother for a few days.

I’m glad you like the link. Father’s blog is good. fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.com/

-Tim-

 

[Rich_C]

I think that gathering around the altar is more common in Eastern Churches and the Coptic Church as can be seen in the photo in the link I provided.

Benedictine monastics never really lost that “Eastern” feel. It is one of the reasons why I am so attracted to Cistercian spirituality. There is a sense of mystery which they don’t try to explain, and they accept that it will always defy explanation with an almost matter-of-fact air, very naturally. They don’t freak out every time something can’t be explained with human reason. Instead they shrug their shoulders, smile and say, “That’s God for ya!” and try to enter into it rather than understand it.

Anyway, it was a privilege to be there with the Brothers for that short time, and to be called Brother for a few days.

I’m glad you like the link. Father’s blog is good. fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.com/

-Tim-

The one Melkite liturgy I attended was similar (circling the altar) but it was just the priests, deacons, subdeacons and acolytes. The rest of the us were beyond the screen and could only see a little ways into the sanctuary. In that sense, it’s not so different from the Latin Mass I’m familiar with, where the servers (often many of them) gather prayerfull to the sides of the altar during much of the Mass.

Have you considered entering the religious life? I am very much a “pew spirituality” type of guy, and could pretty much care less about what religious orders do (no offense to them). The fact that it means so much to you might be a calling.

And I’ll have to check out that blog again from time to time, thanks.

 

[Charles12]

The most legitimate manner of offering Mass is ad orientem, sanctified by Catholic tradition and is more than acceptable. Cardinal Ratzinger’s exposition on it in his Spirit of the Liturgy is fantastic as is Fr. Uwe Lang’s Turning Towards the Lord.

 

[pnewton]

A priest always faces east because the altar itself is liturgical east.

I will have to stick with what Cardinal Ratzinger wrote on this. He said ad orientem is where the priest stand facing the same way as the populous and this is facing liturgical East. is It is called ad orientem for a reason.

I do not have my book with me. I will try and grab it and quote the appropriate passage.

 

[ProVobis]

I will have to stick with what Cardinal Ratzinger wrote on this. He said ad orientem is where the priest stand facing the same way as the populous and this is facing liturgical East. is It is called ad orientem for a reason.

I do not have my book with me. I will try and grab it and quote the appropriate passage.

Ad orientem or cum populo sounds so much better than versus populum, doesn’t it?

 

[GangGreen]

I think the discussion should focus on the Roman Rite considering most of the people posting go to a Mass which uses it.

Anyway, even though both are supposed to be allowed to be used equally, there is plenty of resistance to priests doing the Mass ad orientem if they wish.