Fact or Fiction !>

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This is from the book “What is Catholicism? Hard Questions – Straight Answers” © 1999 by Rev. John Redford; Nihil Obstat: Rev. Anton Cowan, Censor Librorum; Imprimatur: Rev. David Norris.

In answer to the question of whether or not the new Catechism [in other words, the Catholic Church] has fallen back to fundamentalism, Redford writes:

“The essence of fundamentalism is the essential historicization of every story in the Bible… For the fundamentalist, to say that the Bible is true means essentially that it must all be factual and historical. It cannot accept the fact that God, in speaking to us as human beings, might speak to us in parable or story form…

“The fundamentalist cannot accept the possibility that an account might appear to be factual (e.g., the story of Job in the book of that name) while in reality it is a fictional poem or story with a moral…

“The fundamentalist cannot accept the possibility that some passages of Scripture are historical, and others not; and that it is not always easy to tell the difference. For example, did the writer of Genesis intend for us to accept the six days of creation literally? Or could it be that he was writing symbolically, and that the scientific view that the world took millions of years to create is not incompatible with a Christian view of creation?”

Describing the approach taken by the new Catechism, Redford continues:

“…the new Catechism could never be seen as fundamentalist, at least in essence…

“What also contradicts any possible fundamentalism in the new Catechism is its affirmation from Dei Verbum of the fact that, in Catholic faith, not only is God the author of Scripture, but the human writers are themselves true authors (CCC 106). Once the human authorship is admitted, then the existence of different literary forms springing from the cultural and historical context of the human authors becomes immediately possible.

“What sometimes gives the impression of fundamentalism in the Catechism is that figures particularly of the Old Testament are described as if their historical existence was itself a matter of faith… But the Catechism never teaches: “Noah and Abraham actually existed.” It simply tells their story, relating it to the history of salvation before Christ…

“… the new Catechism is equally clear when it wishes to assert unambiguously the historicity of certain events, for example the virginal conception of Jesus (CCC 498), and his bodily resurrection (CCC 643). The very assertion of the historicity of these events again underlines the non-fundamentalism of the new Catechism. If the whole of the Bible was seen as univocally factually and historical, then there would be no need to assert the historicity of the miraculous event in Jesus’ life. But, on the contrary, the Catechism wishes to make clear the historicity of certain events related to our salvation, whose factuality is questioned in modern exegesis, while leaving freedom of research concerning the discussion regarding the historicity of other stories in the Bible.”

It is clear that the RCC has no official stand regarding the historicity of the many stories in the OT [including that of Noah] and that Catholics have the freedom to believe what they want on such matters. It is therefore not surprising to see many divergent views from the posters here.

I think Corki’s view is more in line with the teaching of the RCC. He is right in saying “Catholics are permitted to believe the story of Noah as a factual recounting or as an allegorical teaching.”

However, his next statement, “but not fiction or myth,” is a contradiction in terms. A fictional story is something that has not actually happened (not factual or historical). An allegory belongs to that category. When a story is not factual or historical, then it must be fiction. It does not matter if it has some hidden spiritual meaning, or some moral lesson can be learned from it (as in a parable), for as long as it has not actually happened, it is fiction.

Notice what Redford says about the story of Job. It “might appear to be factual while in reality it is a fictional poem or story with a moral….” When a story is not factual then it could not be anything else but fictional. As the OP asks, “Fact or Fiction?”
 
This is from the book “What is Catholicism? Hard Questions – Straight Answers” © 1999 by Rev. John Redford; Nihil Obstat: Rev. Anton Cowan, Censor Librorum; Imprimatur: Rev. David Norris.

In answer to the question of whether or not the new Catechism [in other words, the Catholic Church] has fallen back to fundamentalism, Redford writes:

“The essence of fundamentalism is the essential historicization of every story in the Bible… For the fundamentalist, to say that the Bible is true means essentially that it must all be factual and historical. It cannot accept the fact that God, in speaking to us as human beings, might speak to us in parable or story form…

“The fundamentalist cannot accept the possibility that an account might appear to be factual (e.g., the story of Job in the book of that name) while in reality it is a fictional poem or story with a moral…

“The fundamentalist cannot accept the possibility that some passages of Scripture are historical, and others not; and that it is not always easy to tell the difference. For example, did the writer of Genesis intend for us to accept the six days of creation literally? Or could it be that he was writing symbolically, and that the scientific view that the world took millions of years to create is not incompatible with a Christian view of creation?”

Describing the approach taken by the new Catechism, Redford continues:

“…the new Catechism could never be seen as fundamentalist, at least in essence…

“What also contradicts any possible fundamentalism in the new Catechism is its affirmation from Dei Verbum of the fact that, in Catholic faith, not only is God the author of Scripture, but the human writers are themselves true authors (CCC 106). Once the human authorship is admitted, then the existence of different literary forms springing from the cultural and historical context of the human authors becomes immediately possible.

“What sometimes gives the impression of fundamentalism in the Catechism is that figures particularly of the Old Testament are described as if their historical existence was itself a matter of faith… But the Catechism never teaches: “Noah and Abraham actually existed.” It simply tells their story, relating it to the history of salvation before Christ…

“… the new Catechism is equally clear when it wishes to assert unambiguously the historicity of certain events, for example the virginal conception of Jesus (CCC 498), and his bodily resurrection (CCC 643). The very assertion of the historicity of these events again underlines the non-fundamentalism of the new Catechism. If the whole of the Bible was seen as univocally factually and historical, then there would be no need to assert the historicity of the miraculous event in Jesus’ life. But, on the contrary, the Catechism wishes to make clear the historicity of certain events related to our salvation, whose factuality is questioned in modern exegesis, while leaving freedom of research concerning the discussion regarding the historicity of other stories in the Bible.”

It is clear that the RCC has no official stand regarding the historicity of the many stories in the OT [including that of Noah] and that Catholics have the freedom to believe what they want on such matters. It is therefore not surprising to see many divergent views from the posters here.

I think Corki’s view is more in line with the teaching of the RCC. He is right in saying “Catholics are permitted to believe the story of Noah as a factual recounting or as an allegorical teaching.”

However, his next statement, “but not fiction or myth,” is a contradiction in terms. A fictional story is something that has not actually happened (not factual or historical). An allegory belongs to that category. When a story is not factual or historical, then it must be fiction. It does not matter if it has some hidden spiritual meaning, or some moral lesson can be learned from it (as in a parable), for as long as it has not actually happened, it is fiction.

Notice what Redford says about the story of Job. It “might appear to be factual while in reality it is a fictional poem or story with a moral….” When a story is not factual then it could not be anything else but fictional. As the OP asks, “Fact or Fiction?”
surprise,surprise but not really considering what is being accepted and taught by some in the Church - so lets just presume that besides Noah and Abraham,Adam also did not really exist.Jesus Christ in all three cases made a terrible mistake and in the case of Adam a deadly one by dying for what a myth did not do anyway - whatever next - twinc
 
surprise,surprise but not really considering what is being accepted and taught by some in the Church - so lets just presume that besides Noah and Abraham,Adam also did not really exist.Jesus Christ in all three cases made a terrible mistake and in the case of Adam a deadly one by dying for what a myth did not do anyway - whatever next - twinc
The Church teaches different things about the historicity of the Scriptural accounts regarding Adam, Abraham, and Jesus. The same view of historicity is not required regarding the Scriptural passages and genres that recount the revelatory witness of these figures.

Just because one may believe that the stories of Genesis 1-11 are “myth” and much of the rest of Genesis might be “legend” in no way diminishes the historical truth of them, nor of the Gospel accounts of Jesus Christ and his ministry.
 
My sons attend a Catholic school whose faculty teach science in science classes. If they discuss “Noah’s Flood” they do it in religion class.
nothing wrong about that as long as they dont teach phony/pseudo science in science classes or pseudo/phony religion in religion classes - twinc
 
nothing wrong about that as long as they dont teach phony/pseudo science in science classes or pseudo/phony religion in religion classes - twinc
Right – there is no astrology, numerology, alchemy, or creatonism taught in science classes. Only science.
 
Right – there is no astrology, numerology, alchemy, or creatonism taught in science classes. Only science.
never ever heard of astrology science,numerology science,alchemy science,but creation science is well known and established and should be and will be taught in science classes and in the very near future or in home education for Christians will refuse to subscribe to atheism being taught as science and Christian creation science being deliberately rejected - btw once again see [www.TruthinScience.org.uk and/or .com -twinc .](www.TruthinScience.org.uk and/or .com -twinc .)
 
never ever heard of astrology science,numerology science,alchemy science,but creation science is well known and established and should be and will be taught in science classes and in the very near future or in home education for Christians will refuse to subscribe to atheism being taught as science and Christian creation science being deliberately rejected - btw once again see [www.TruthinScience.org.uk and/or .com -twinc .](www.TruthinScience.org.uk and/or .com -twinc .)

btw in spite of what Dawkins and his fellow brains have to say about creationists being stupid insane etc.Just clock on to article in R/H column in TruthinScience website “did dinosaurs evolve into birds”,See exactly who the bird brains appear to be - check it out for yourselves - twinc
 
never ever heard of astrology science,numerology science,alchemy science,but creation science is well known and established and should be and will be taught in science classes and in the very near future or in home education for Christians will refuse to subscribe to atheism being taught as science and Christian creation science being deliberately rejected - btw once again see [www.TruthinScience.org.uk and/or .com -twinc .](www.TruthinScience.org.uk and/or .com -twinc .)

“Creation science” is not science, so that’s why it’s been banned from schools. Of course, home schoolers are free to teach their children whatever they want, including witchcraft and astrology.
 
“Creation science” is not science, so that’s why it’s been banned from schools. Of course, home schoolers are free to teach their children whatever they want, including witchcraft and astrology.
creation science is real/true science by God and scientists and pseudo/phony science is bewitchedcraft -spot the difference as it makes all the difference - again see www.TruthinScience.org.uk - btw would you say it was witchcraft turning dinosaurs into birds and humans into monkeys - twinc
 
creation science is real/true science by God and scientists and pseudo/phony science is bewitchedcraft -spot the difference as it makes all the difference - again see www.TruthinScience.org.uk - btw would you say it was witchcraft turning dinosaurs into birds and humans into monkeys - twinc
If “creation science” is really science, why is it rejected by the world’s scientists, the world’s schools, and the Church? Who does that leave in support of it but you, Twinc?
 
“Creation science” is not science, so that’s why it’s been banned from schools. Of course, home schoolers are free to teach their children whatever they want, including witchcraft and astrology.
Irish Cardinal states"parents have a right to have their children educated according to their philosophical and religious convictions and the state has a duty to support this right with public funds"[The Universe] - btw Catholic parents have no duty to support Atheist education in science classes as having crept in by the open back door - twinc
 
If “creation science” is really science, why is it rejected by the world’s scientists, the world’s schools, and the Church? Who does that leave in support of it but you, Twinc?
twinc plus thousands of scientists plus God against the world is no problem - twinc
 
twinc plus thousands of scientists plus God against the world is no problem - twinc
Twinc, can you name a leading scientist who supports the literal interpretation of an hexaemeral creation a few thousand years ago? Can you name a singe leading. well-respected geologist who supports a literal interpretation of a worldwide flood in the days of “Noah”?
 
Irish Cardinal states"parents have a right to have their children educated according to their philosophical and religious convictions and the state has a duty to support this right with public funds"[The Universe] - btw Catholic parents have no duty to support Atheist education in science classes as having crept in by the open back door - twinc
Which Irish Cardinal supports this?
 
Unfortunately, regarding this subject, science has gone beyond its boundaries to define life and its development as purely mechanistic. There is no intention to hold the line and simply report what is being observed. This has come out time and time again when scientists, using their titles and positions, attach atheism to the evidence, thereby giving a false and misleading impression to too many people. This must be overcome.

Peace,
Ed
 
This has come out time and time again when scientists, using their titles and positions, attach atheism to the evidence, thereby giving a false and misleading impression to too many people. This must be overcome.Peace,Ed
Quite right!
 
Unfortunately, regarding this subject, science has gone beyond its boundaries to define life and its development as purely mechanistic. There is no intention to hold the line and simply report what is being observed. This has come out time and time again when scientists, using their titles and positions, attach atheism to the evidence, thereby giving a false and misleading impression to too many people. This must be overcome.

Peace,
Ed
Right, exactly. And, unfortunately, many in religion go beyond religion’s (or philosophy’s, or theology’s) boundaries to impose things into science that are not by definition subject to the scientific method.

There are faults in some cases on both sides of not properly understanding and respecting the recognized limits of the various disciplines.

“Creation science” and intelligent design are great examples, as are the more extreme claims of scientists like Dawkins.
 
Right, exactly. And, unfortunately, many in religion go beyond religion’s (or philosophy’s, or theology’s) boundaries to impose things into science that are not by definition subject to the scientific method.

There are faults in some cases on both sides of not properly understanding and respecting the recognized limits of the various disciplines.

“Creation science” and intelligent design are great examples, as are the more extreme claims of scientists like Dawkins.
extreme claims of scientists like Dawkins - these same scientists have elected him as spokesman and propagator of their no God delusion[ATHEISM].Both Dawkins and other real and proper atheists,it seems want nothing to do with phony/pseudo so called Catholic watered down evolutionists with one foot in each camp - twinc
 
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