Factors in salvation and who is included?

[MarshallJackson]

My dad and I were discussing who salvation includes. My dad, growing up and coming from a Baptist background, recalls the teaching that the reason missionaries exist is to spread the faith to places such as third world countries, where people would otherwise “be going to hell” no matter the lack of opportunity in the area of religious education. He also said that the same goes for people such as Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and whoever else who only know that of the religion they grew up in, or perhaps also didn’t have they education opportunity to learn about Christ.

I feel like God is going to be taking a lot more into account than we think at the time of our deaths. I don’t feel like it is cut and dry, black and white, in the sense that someone who didn’t have a chance to learn more or perhaps didn’t understand something correctly will be going to hell. If these people did good things in their lives otherwise, wouldn’t God also take this into account?

My dad, of course, seems more of a black and white person who sees John 3:16 as the ultimate determining factor in salvation as not the only, but the core factor in determining salvation. He believes that more must be done than having faith alone, but he thinks a lack of faith, no matter what the reason, is a sentence to hell.

I was wondering how the beliefs in this area differ among denominations and how they compare with the Catholic Faith. Also I was wondering what else the Bible days on this topic. Any information or personal stories and opinions would be great!

 

[Beryllos]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

(The bold emphasis is mine.)

Also this, taken from paragraph 1257:

God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

 

[ltwin]

God is sovereign. He can save anyone that he wants any way that he wants. What we know from Scripture is that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by him.

None of us knows who is saved or not. However, God has given us the hope of salvation through Christ. We can be certain of that. Everything else is speculation, and that is why fulfilling the Great Commission is so important. Romans 10:14, " How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?"

 

[WorkingFaith]

I would agree with your dad here. I attend a baptist church just like he does and tend to be more Calvinistic(<–not sure if that is right) in my views. God is sovereign and he has the power to reveal Christ to anyone no matter what their location. I find in scripture evidence towards no salvation outside of Christ and nothing that says you have a chance without Christ. This being said I know it sounds harsh but this is my interpretation of the scripture because the only reason we can be saved is because of Christ. My wife is catholic though and through conversations with the priest and her the teaching is that there still is the opportunity for those to be saved. I know Jesus says he is the only way to the Father and in Romans it says that He has made himself known through creation. I would encourage you to dig into some church teachings and into the bible and search for the answer…may find yourself growing in your faith along the way.

 

[TexanKnight]

Who is included?

Way above my pay grade. I figure God does not need my help on that decision…

 

[WorkingFaith]

Who is included?

Way above my pay grade. I figure God does not need my help on that decision…

Those that believe in Christ as the way to the Father…

 

[TexanKnight]

Those that believe in Christ as the way to the Father…

Again…Jesus was asked how to gain Salvation…assuming we believe Him, what did he say?

“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16 17).

“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

Seems pretty clear.

But, it matters not. It is not your call, nor is it mine.

 

[WorkingFaith]

Again…Jesus was asked how to gain Salvation…assuming we believe Him, what did he say?

“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16 17).

“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

Seems pretty clear.

But, it matters not. It is not your call, nor is it mine.

Right, but the person asked Jesus. They believed He could lead them to eternal life. The next two verses of Matthew 7 says that people will come saying didn’t I do all these works and he will say he did not know them. This is of course a paraphrase. Whenever I say those who believe in Jesus I’m talking about those that have saving faith. Those that are doing works because of their faith. I should have explained that I don’t believe that it is faith alone but I do believe it is faith apart from works, the difference being that faith alone is 1) not accurate with scripture. 2) when Paul says faith apart from works he is not saying there is no works. He is saying there are works and faith but your faith justifies you before God. This is why you need faith. Not saying it is my call I’m just saying what I find in scripture.

 

[WorkingFaith]

Also, I am very wordy. I don’t want their to be any misunderstanding I think that is why there is so much disagreement between catholic and protestant. If i just tell you faith alone than you see me as an idiot that takes advantage of grace. Again sorry for so many words.

 

[TexanKnight]

Also, I am very wordy. I don’t want their to be any misunderstanding I think that is why there is so much disagreement between catholic and protestant. If i just tell you faith alone than you see me as an idiot that takes advantage of grace. Again sorry for so many words.

Well, Jesus was clear. I will follow HIS words. That is just how I operate.

I look at Salvation like this:

Imagine you are given a new bike for Christmas. It is in a box. The gift of the bike is free. You did not have to do anything to get it. It is yours.

But, to enjoy the bike, you must assemble it. You must air up the tires, make sure the gears are installed correctly, etc. There are things you must do to enjoy it.

Salvation is free. It is a gift. We had to do nothing to receive it. But, in order to enjoy it, there are things we must do. We must believe. We must follow the commandments. We must follow the teachings of Christ. There are things we must do to enjoy Salvation.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

I would agree with your dad here. I attend a baptist church just like he does and tend to be more Calvinistic(<–not sure if that is right) in my views. God is sovereign and he has the power to reveal Christ to anyone no matter what their location. I find in scripture evidence towards no salvation outside of Christ and nothing that says you have a chance without Christ. This being said I know it sounds harsh but this is my interpretation of the scripture because the only reason we can be saved is because of Christ. My wife is catholic though and through conversations with the priest and her the teaching is that there still is the opportunity for those to be saved. I know Jesus says he is the only way to the Father and in Romans it says that He has made himself known through creation. I would encourage you to dig into some church teachings and into the bible and search for the answer…may find yourself growing in your faith along the way.

The Song of Bernadette, the novel about the appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Bernadette Soubirous was written by a Jewish man, Franz Werfel.

Werfel, by his own admission, was a nominal Jew at best when he and has wife had to flee the Gestapo after Austria was annexed by the Third Reich in 1938. A personal target of Adolf Hitler, Werfel and his wife managed to make it into France where the Catholics of Lourdes took him in and hid him until he could get passage from Europe to the United States.

Moved by the actions of these loving people, and their devotion to the Blessed Mother via St. Bernadette, Werfel, a secular Jew, prayed to St. Bernadette, asking for her intercession to God for a successful escape. He vowed to tell the whole world of Bernadette’s “song” if she would do this for him.

His escape to the United States was as miraculous as the events that Werfel wrote about in the novel. It became a bestseller, an award-winning major motion picture, and did more to spread the gospel than the actions of many Catholics of his time. Werfel never converted to Catholicism, though the Jewish community allowed a Catholic funeral on his behalf after his passing.

Is this man saved or not saved?

Well the story in the novel as well as the story of Werfel’s safe passage to the USA is a lesson for all who listen to this “song.”

It tells us that while we may be bound by denominational lines, God is not. God saves who he wants to, even if they do not convert to Christianity.

God can choose to speak to us through the Virgin Mary, and Mary can choose to speak to the world through a little uneducated girl at the site of a trash heap. And a saint, by God’s grace, can choose a non-Christian to spread a life-saving message to a world that desperately needs it.

Who of us will ever preach Christ in the way Werfel did, reaching as many souls with the gospel, pointing as many people to Christ and the Church as he did? Have any of us done even a fraction of such a great work?

If we hope to be saved because we believe we are a light to the world and we have Christ, then by comparison with Werfel we are lost. God gave Werfel greater light to illuminate the saving truth of Christ brighter than that given to many of the saints!–Compare a similar situation at Romans 2:17-29.

God saves through the Church only and through Christ only but not by our limited understanding of these things.

 

[WorkingFaith]

Well, Jesus was clear. I will follow HIS words. That is just how I operate.

I look at Salvation like this:

Imagine you are given a new bike for Christmas. It is in a box. The gift of the bike is free. You did not have to do anything to get it. It is yours.

But, to enjoy the bike, you must assemble it. You must air up the tires, make sure the gears are installed correctly, etc. There are things you must do to enjoy it.

Salvation is free. It is a gift. We had to do nothing to receive it. But, in order to enjoy it, there are things we must do. We must believe. We must follow the commandments. We must follow the teachings of Christ. There are things we must do to enjoy Salvation.

Jesus also said nobody gets to the Father except through Him (or seomthing like that) But don’t you have to believe there is something in the box before you open it? You wouldn’t do the work if you didn’t believe it was in their first. Would you take the time to do all the maintenance if you didn’t believe that it would work. So you “work” on the bike because you have “faith” that it is in the box initially and that it will lead you to “everlasting bike riding” hahaha. Kinda hard to compare salvation to a bike. I don’t think this really addresses the issue of can you be saved without faith in Jesus though. The bible is clear that you must have faith. This is just what I get whenever I read the Bible, but I’m not limiting God’s power to save anyone He pleases. I know you will probably disagree on this but I think that we are set aside as His elect from before He created us and if He wills us to be saved than we will be saved.

 

[TexanKnight]

Jesus also said nobody gets to the Father except through Him (or seomthing like that) But don’t you have to believe there is something in the box before you open it? You wouldn’t do the work if you didn’t believe it was in their first. Would you take the time to do all the maintenance if you didn’t believe that it would work. So you “work” on the bike because you have “faith” that it is in the box initially and that it will lead you to “everlasting bike riding” hahaha. Kinda hard to compare salvation to a bike. I don’t think this really addresses the issue of can you be saved without faith in Jesus though. The bible is clear that you must have faith. This is just what I get whenever I read the Bible, but I’m not limiting God’s power to save anyone He pleases. I know you will probably disagree on this but I think that we are set aside as His elect from before He created us and if He wills us to be saved than we will be saved.

the faith is presumed in my analogy. I would have never been the bike in the box had not the person who gave it to me loved me.

But even with the faith and love, the bike cannot be enjoyed without the action your part to assemble the bike.

Jesus was clear.

Paul was clear in Hebrews when he said to work out your salvation with faith and trembling.

Faith without works is dead (James)

Faith alone will not save you

Works alone will not save you.

both must exist.

 

[WorkingFaith]

The Song of Bernadette, the novel about the appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Bernadette Soubirous was written by a Jewish man, Franz Werfel.

Werfel, by his own admission, was a nominal Jew at best when he and has wife had to flee the Gestapo after Austria was annexed by the Third Reich in 1938. A personal target of Adolf Hitler, Werfel and his wife managed to make it into France where the Catholics of Lourdes took him in and hid him until he could get passage from Europe to the United States.

Moved by the actions of these loving people, and their devotion to the Blessed Mother via St. Bernadette, Werfel, a secular Jew, prayed to St. Bernadette, asking for her intercession to God for a successful escape. He vowed to tell the whole world of Bernadette’s “song” if she would do this for him.

His escape to the United States was as miraculous as the events that Werfel wrote about in the novel. It became a bestseller, an award-winning major motion picture, and did more to spread the gospel than the actions of many Catholics of his time. Werfel never converted to Catholicism, though the Jewish community allowed a Catholic funeral on his behalf after his passing.

Is this man saved or not saved?

Well the story in the novel as well as the story of Werfel’s safe passage to the USA is a lesson for all who listen to this “song.”

It tells us that while we may be bound by denominational lines, God is not. God saves who he wants to, even if they do not convert to Christianity.

God can choose to speak to us through the Virgin Mary, and Mary can choose to speak to the world through a little uneducated girl at the site of a trash heap. And a saint, by God’s grace, can choose a non-Christian to spread a life-saving message to a world that desperately needs it.

Who of us will ever preach Christ in the way Werfel did, reaching as many souls with the gospel, pointing as many people to Christ and the Church as he did? Have any of us done even a fraction of such a great work?

If we hope to be saved because we believe we are a light to the world and we have Christ, then by comparison with Werfel we are lost. God gave Werfel greater light to illuminate the saving truth of Christ brighter than that given to many of the saints!–Compare a similar situation at Romans 2:17-29.

God saves through the Church only and through Christ only but not by our limited understanding of these things.

I would say if He had faith in Christ than He is saved. God has used non believers to bring people to the knowledge of him before (I’m pretty sure) didn’t He do it in the OT? I didn’t know the man but he sounds like a good guy that spread the song of Bernadette. I would just question if he believed in Jesus. Again, this is just what I think compared to what the Bible says. If God wants that man saved than He will save him. Also I’ve never heard it said that God saves through the Church only, but Christ only yes. Didn’t God make a Jackass(Donkey) speak in the OT and lead someone to repentance or something like that?

 

[TexanKnight]

Didn’t God make a Jackass(Donkey) speak ?

THAT explains how Obama can talk…

been wondering about that

 

[WorkingFaith]

THAT explains how Obama can talk…

been wondering about that

HAHAHA!!! on the previous post my point was that your faith produced those works. You never would have opened the box without that faith. Yes we are to work because faith without works is dead I 100% agree, but Paul says in Romans that a man is justified by faith apart from works. That is why you have to have faith to be saved, you can’t just have good works and not have faith in Christ because your good works are for nothing. one of my favorite verses is “even your righteous deeds are like filthy rags” (not an exact quote) without faith in Christ we are hopeless. Were just going back and forth though, I agree with you that we do need works there is no doubt about that but the works should be a product of our faith. Which according to Ephesians “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” this way we can’t boast in our faith because it is a gift from God and continue reading we can’t boast in our works because he provides those also. God is good!!! but…to the kid who originally posted this, if your still reading, than find the answer for yourself because I don’t think I have helped you much (probably confused you). Maybe you should go and convert all those to Christianity so that there will be no doubt where they are going haha God Bless!!!

 

[Felasco]

My dad and I were discussing who salvation includes.

I apologize if this is off topic, but I’m interested in what exactly is saved. Not who, but what.

I suppose the answer is the soul, but what exactly does the soul include? As example, would it include memories of our life on Earth?

 

[WorkingFaith]

I apologize if this is off topic, but I’m interested in what exactly is saved. Not who, but what.

I suppose the answer is the soul, but what exactly does the soul include? As example, would it include memories of our life on Earth?

I’m not exactly sure how to answer that but someone else on the forum may be able to. I don’t know if I necessarily want to remember some of the things I did on Earth haha.

 

[WorkingFaith]

the faith is presumed in my analogy. I would have never been the bike in the box had not the person who gave it to me loved me.

But even with the faith and love, the bike cannot be enjoyed without the action your part to assemble the bike.

Jesus was clear.

Paul was clear in Hebrews when he said to work out your salvation with faith and trembling.

Faith without works is dead (James)

Faith alone will not save you

Works alone will not save you.

both must exist.

I was reading back over our conversation and I was wondering what do you consider the “gift” to be? I guess more plainly what is the gift of God to us?

 

[steve_b]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

As an aside,

It’s written that way because while people like this fall out of the formula for salvation written in scripture, God can still save anybody case by case depending on their circumstances.

It also can be said that

can be saved or may be saved, does not mean will be saved. It doesn’t mean probably saved. It might only be remote if at all.

For example, If I say it may rain tomorrow, or it can rain tomorrow, it doesn’t mean rain will show up tommorrow. If it doesn’t rain tomorrow I didn’t mispeak. “May” and “can”, aren’t real strong predictors. It just leaves open the possibility.