Factors in salvation and who is included?

[ltwin]

I apologize if this is off topic, but I’m interested in what exactly is saved. Not who, but what.

I suppose the answer is the soul, but what exactly does the soul include? As example, would it include memories of our life on Earth?

Well man is spirit, soul, body. The spirit is basically the “real us,” the life inside us. The soul is the mind, will and emotions. Our body is the material us.

Christians believe we and all creation were created perfect but through sin was corrupted. Salvation in the long-term is the redemption and renewal of the whole creation.

When it comes to people, salvation ultimately means becoming new creations, in the image of Christ. Spiritually, we are brought back into right relationship with God. Our minds, will, and emotions are renewed; we are given “the mind of Christ.” Our bodies will be resurrected just like Jesus was.

Yes, I’m pretty sure we will remember life on earth.

 

[Darryl_B]

I apologize if this is off topic, but I’m interested in what exactly is saved. Not who, but what.

I suppose the answer is the soul, but what exactly does the soul include? As example, would it include memories of our life on Earth?

Man is essentially body and soul one is physical the other is spiritual. Both are ultimately savable.

 

[markoh]

the faith is presumed in my analogy. I would have never been the bike in the box had not the person who gave it to me loved me.

But even with the faith and love, the bike cannot be enjoyed without the action your part to assemble the bike.

Jesus was clear.

Paul was clear in Hebrews when he said to work out your salvation with faith and trembling.

Faith without works is dead (James)

Faith alone will not save you

Works alone will not save you.

both must exist.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

The Apostle Paul tells the Philippians to “work out their salvation.”

Now be careful as you read these words.

He is not telling us to work FOR our salvation.

It is so important that you hear these words.

Paul was clear in Hebrews when he said to work out your salvation with faith and trembling.

We are surrounded by people who are working for their salvation.

They are trying to earn enough points to get in. They are like the student who is working hard to be accepted to a college, or to gain a scholarship.

They are like the salesman who is trying to meet a particular sales quota.

 

[markoh]

Well man is spirit, soul, body. The spirit is basically the “real us,” the life inside us. The soul is the mind, will and emotions. Our body is the material us.

Christians believe we and all creation were created perfect but through sin was corrupted. Salvation in the long-term is the redemption and renewal of the whole creation.

When it comes to people, salvation ultimately means becoming new creations, in the image of Christ. Spiritually, we are brought back into right relationship with God. Our minds, will, and emotions are renewed; we are given “the mind of Christ.” Our bodies will be resurrected just like Jesus was.

Yes, I’m pretty sure we will remember life on earth.

i do like the clarity of your understanding–

i could say more – or give a testimony-- but after a person experiences the 3 distinct, stages-- it kinda – settles it for a person

 

[TexanKnight]

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

The Apostle Paul tells the Philippians to “work out their salvation.”

Now be careful as you read these words.

He is not telling us to work FOR our salvation.

It is so important that you hear these words.

Paul was clear in Hebrews when he said to work out your salvation with faith and trembling.

We are surrounded by people who are working for their salvation.

They are trying to earn enough points to get in. They are like the student who is working hard to be accepted to a college, or to gain a scholarship.

They are like the salesman who is trying to meet a particular sales quota.

Take it up with Paul. The bottom line, faith alone is not enough

 

[stewstew03]

I was reading back over our conversation and I was wondering what do you consider the “gift” to be? I guess more plainly what is the gift of God to us?

The gift is that, through Christ’s sacrifice, we are no longer subject to the Law.

 

[WorkingFaith]

The gift is that, through Christ’s sacrifice, we are no longer subject to the Law.

As far as what we can find in scripture…for instance Ephesians 2:8. It makes direct reference what the gift of God is. Not sure if it mentions anywhere else what is a gift of God, although I do believe that is a gift from God.

 

[WorkingFaith]

Take it up with Paul. The bottom line, faith alone is not enough

Nobody every said faith alone is not enough…I actually made sure that I did not say that I actually went against that and said and actual quote from the bible (because Luther added the alone (which I am sure you already knew)). In Romans Paul says you have been justified by faith apart from works. So although we do need works to show that our faith is genuine our works are separate from our faith when it comes to being justified. Bottom line though is that we are saved by grace I think we can all agree on that. I would just encourage you to find the fine line between salvation by faith and works and salvation by faith apart from works. Although the line is thin, by saying salavation depends on our works we are adding to Christ.

Markoh can give you what he thinks, but this is how I read it. Problem on this forum is that answers are never reached. A protestant simply throws a scripture at a catholic and a catholic throws a scripture back and it goes on and on. So, if I were an atheist that came to read what all the Christians were saying I would laugh and continue to turn away from God because according to us going back and forth the Bible contradicts itself. Bottom line a true saving faith is accompanied by works, but you can’t ignore that we are justified apart from works. Thats why James says “you SEE that a man is justified by works not by faith alone”. We can’t SEE faith so we SEE works that proceed from our faith. Abraham was considered righteous because he believed God, and his faith in God was shown by His works. I’ve talked to many catholics that agree with what I say, problem is that the typical “protestant” says I can do whatever I want cause I have faith and they take advantage of grace which is just as harshly talked about in the Bible as saying that you have to do certain things in order to be saved.

Sorry for the rant and if I took what you said out of context than I apologize just think its key that both protestants and catholics understand this concept.

 

[TexanKnight]

Nobody every said faith alone is not enough…I actually made sure that I did not say that I actually went against that and said and actual quote from the bible (because Luther added the alone (which I am sure you already knew)). In Romans Paul says you have been justified by faith apart from works. So although we do need works to show that our faith is genuine our works are separate from our faith when it comes to being justified. Bottom line though is that we are saved by grace I think we can all agree on that. I would just encourage you to find the fine line between salvation by faith and works and salvation by faith apart from works. Although the line is thin, by saying salavation depends on our works we are adding to Christ.

Markoh can give you what he thinks, but this is how I read it. Problem on this forum is that answers are never reached. A protestant simply throws a scripture at a catholic and a catholic throws a scripture back and it goes on and on. So, if I were an atheist that came to read what all the Christians were saying I would laugh and continue to turn away from God because according to us going back and forth the Bible contradicts itself. Bottom line a true saving faith is accompanied by works, but you can’t ignore that we are justified apart from works. Thats why James says “you SEE that a man is justified by works not by faith alone”. We can’t SEE faith so we SEE works that proceed from our faith. Abraham was considered righteous because he believed God, and his faith in God was shown by His works. I’ve talked to many catholics that agree with what I say, problem is that the typical “protestant” says I can do whatever I want cause I have faith and they take advantage of grace which is just as harshly talked about in the Bible as saying that you have to do certain things in order to be saved.

Sorry for the rant and if I took what you said out of context than I apologize just think its key that both protestants and catholics understand this concept.

I am not sure why you are still responding if you agree with what I say…one needs faith AND works

 

[WorkingFaith]

I am not sure why you are still responding if you agree with what I say…one needs faith AND works

My point is that your not saved by faith and works. You are saved by faith apart from works, your works are simply evidence of your faith. They aren’t even yours they are all from God…I responded because your response was take it up with Paul as if you didn’t agree.

 

[TexanKnight]

My point is that your not saved by faith and works. You are saved by faith apart from works, your works are simply evidence of your faith. They aren’t even yours they are all from God…I responded because your response was take it up with Paul as if you didn’t agree.

Ah…so Jesus was wrong…the Apostles were wrong…and you are right.

I see now why you respond.

NOWHERE doies it say you are saved by faith alone evidenced by works…

but I now know where you stand

 

[WorkingFaith]

Ah…so Jesus was wrong…the Apostles were wrong…and you are right.

I see now why you respond.

NOWHERE doies it say you are saved by faith alone evidenced by works…

but I now know where you stand

So what did Jesus mean in Luke 7:50 “your faith has saved you, go in peace”. Although she washed his feet with her hair it was her faith that saved her that is what Jesus said.

Paul says in Romans 3:28 “For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.”

So they are saying that you are saved by faith and in Jesus’ situation she acted in a loving way towards him but He said that your faith has saved you.

I didn’t make that stuff up, so how does Jesus and Paul say this but yet we are saved by our faith and works. Just to be clear I am not saying you do not need works because without works you have no faith and without faith you have no salvation.

 

[clem456]

Again…Jesus was asked how to gain Salvation…assuming we believe Him, what did he say?

“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16 17).

“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

Seems pretty clear.

But, it matters not. It is not your call, nor is it mine.

Here’s the full passage from Matthew 19 16:30
Notice that our Lord starts the man off with the work of obeying the commandments, of following the law. Evidently the man is performing that work well, but the story tells us that something is still lacking.

The man is rich in more ways than one. Jesus makes it clear that the perfection of salvation will require a total gift of the man’s self in sacrificial love for God and his people. A “rich man” in this context is not referring to merely money, but to the spiritual richness of self-justification, his rejection of his total dependence on God’s grace. The man believes that if he wills to obey the commandments, he should be saved. But Jesus makes it clear that if he will make himself “last” in the eyes of the world and in the things of this world, then he will be “first” in God’s eyes. Prime example of this is the cross…

16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?

17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness.

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

20 The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?

21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.

22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that **a rich man **shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?

26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but **with God **all things are possible.

27 Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have?

28 And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.

30 And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first.

 

[TexanKnight]

So what did Jesus mean in Luke 7:50 “your faith has saved you, go in peace”. Although she washed his feet with her hair it was her faith that saved her that is what Jesus said.

Paul says in Romans 3:28 “For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.”

So they are saying that you are saved by faith and in Jesus’ situation she acted in a loving way towards him but He said that your faith has saved you.

I didn’t make that stuff up, so how does Jesus and Paul say this but yet we are saved by our faith and works. Just to be clear I am not saying you do not need works because without works you have no faith and without faith you have no salvation.

“Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21).**(Works) * "One came up to him, saying, Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16‑17).****(Works)
*
“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him” (John 14:21). (Works)
*
“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury” (Rom. 2:2‑8). (Works)
*
“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Gal. 5:4‑6).**(Works)
*
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God‑‑not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8‑10). (Works and Faith)
*
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12‑13). (Salvation not a given)
*
“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill‑clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe‑‑and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:14‑24). (Works AND Faith)
*
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Can lose your Salvation)
1 John 2:3‑4 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

 

[WorkingFaith]

“Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21).**(Works) * "One came up to him, saying, Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16‑17).****(Works)
*
“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him” (John 14:21). (Works)
*
“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury” (Rom. 2:2‑8). (Works)
*
“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Gal. 5:4‑6).**(Works)
*
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God‑‑not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8‑10). (Works and Faith)
*
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12‑13). (Salvation not a given)
*
“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill‑clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe‑‑and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:14‑24). (Works AND Faith)
*
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Can lose your Salvation)
1 John 2:3‑4 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Well your Ephesians quote says that it is not according to works. Not sure why you put stuff about losing your salvation. I don’t get what you are trying to prove. I’m not saying you can be saved without works. Faith is dead without works so in that sense we do need works, but our faith saves us. Without the bible contradicting itself how do you get around the fact that Jesus said your faith has saved you and the fact that paul says were justified by faith apart from works? You can’t just throw away what I said and throw verses at me you have to deal with other verses too.

 

[clem456]

So what did Jesus mean in Luke 7:50 “your faith has saved you, go in peace”. Although she washed his feet with her hair it was her faith that saved her that is what Jesus said.

Paul says in Romans 3:28 “For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.”

So they are saying that you are saved by faith and in Jesus’ situation she acted in a loving way towards him but He said that your faith has saved you.

I didn’t make that stuff up, so how does Jesus and Paul say this but yet we are saved by our faith and works. Just to be clear I am not saying you do not need works because without works you have no faith and without faith you have no salvation.

Hard topic to get hold of. Faith requires God’s grace. But Is it fair to say that to have faith is a human response to God, an act of free will? Is that a work?

CCC vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm

143 By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, “the obedience of faith”.3

 

[WorkingFaith]

Hard topic to get hold of. Faith requires God’s grace. But Is it fair to say that to have faith is a human response to God, an act of free will? Is that a work?

CCC vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm

Ya it is a hard thing to grasp. Where do you fall on the faith/works idea Clem? Well let me respond to your question with a question Ephesians 2:8…is it saying that faith is a gift from God or that God’s grace is a gift from God? I have heard it both ways. I interpret it as our faith is a gift from God which is very unpopular because it takes me into predestination which most people do not believe. I was going to start a new thread with this interpretation but did not know where to post it.

 

[pablope]

Ya it is a hard thing to grasp. Where do you fall on the faith/works idea Clem? Well let me respond to your question with a question Ephesians 2:8…is it saying that faith is a gift from God or that God’s grace is a gift from God? I have heard it both ways. I interpret it as our faith is a gift from God which is very unpopular because it takes me into predestination which most people do not believe. I was going to start a new thread with this interpretation but did not know where to post it.

Ephesians 2:10

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 2:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

For further reading to deepen your understanding:

chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/salvation.pdf

Justification By Faith
By Dr. William Marshner

Grace
What Catholics call “sanctifying grace” or “habitual grace” turns out to be a deeply mysterious entity: a quality of man which is a property of God. In order to cope with such an entity, one needs a sophisticated metaphysics of participation. The Church Fathers and their successors, the Scholastic Doctors, took the trouble to work out such a metaphysics because the existence of grace as a real entity in man—ontic grace—was and is the foundation, without which the whole Catholic understanding of justification makes no sense. The Protestant Reformers, however, impatient with metaphysics, preferred not to cope with such an entity and denied its existence.4 To them it seemed simpler to say that grace is something wholly in God, namely, His favor towards us. But then, if grace is not something real in man, our “justification” can no longer be conceived as a real change in us; it will have to become a sheer declaration on God’s part, e.g. a declaration that, thanks to the work of Christ, He will henceforth consider us as just, even though we remain inwardly the sinners we always were. Hence, the Protestant doctrine of “forensic” or “extrinsic” justification. Now watch what happens to our own act of faith: it ceases to be the foundational act of an interior renewal and becomes a mere requirement, devoid of any salvific power in its own right, which God arbitrarily sets as the condition on which He will He will declare us just. Whereupon, watch what happens to our good works: they cease to be the vital acts wherein an ontologically real “new life” consists and manifests itself; they become mere human responses to divine mercy—nice, but totally irrelevant to our justification—or else they become zombie-like motions produced in us by irresistible divine impulses, whereby God exhibits His glory in His elect.

The Protestant Reformers, however, impatient with metaphysics, preferred not to cope with such an entity and denied its existence.4 To them it seemed simpler to say that grace is something wholly in God, namely, His favor towards us. But then, if grace is not something real in man, our “justification” can no longer be conceived as a real change in us; it will have to become a sheer declaration on God’s part, e.g. a declaration that, thanks to the work of Christ, He will henceforth consider us as just, even though we remain inwardly the sinners we always were. Hence, the Protestant doctrine of “forensic” or “extrinsic” justification. Now watch what happens to our own act of faith: it ceases to be the foundational act of an interior renewal and becomes a mere requirement, devoid of any salvific power in its own right, which God arbitrarily sets as the condition on which He will declare us just. Whereupon, watch what happens to our good works: they cease to be the vital acts wherein an ontologically real “new life” consists and manifests itself; they become mere human responses to divine mercy—nice, but totally irrelevant to our justification—or else they become zombie-like motions produced in us by irresistible divine impulses, whereby God exhibits His glory in His elect.

 

[WorkingFaith]

Ephesians 2:10

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 2:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

For further reading to deepen your understanding:

chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/salvation.pdf

Justification By Faith
By Dr. William Marshner

Grace
What Catholics call “sanctifying grace” or “habitual grace” turns out to be a deeply mysterious entity: a quality of man which is a property of God. In order to cope with such an entity, one needs a sophisticated metaphysics of participation. The Church Fathers and their successors, the Scholastic Doctors, took the trouble to work out such a metaphysics because the existence of grace as a real entity in man—ontic grace—was and is the foundation, without which the whole Catholic understanding of justification makes no sense. The Protestant Reformers, however, impatient with metaphysics, preferred not to cope with such an entity and denied its existence.4 To them it seemed simpler to say that grace is something wholly in God, namely, His favor towards us. But then, if grace is not something real in man, our “justification” can no longer be conceived as a real change in us; it will have to become a sheer declaration on God’s part, e.g. a declaration that, thanks to the work of Christ, He will henceforth consider us as just, even though we remain inwardly the sinners we always were. Hence, the Protestant doctrine of “forensic” or “extrinsic” justification. Now watch what happens to our own act of faith: it ceases to be the foundational act of an interior renewal and becomes a mere requirement, devoid of any salvific power in its own right, which God arbitrarily sets as the condition on which He will He will declare us just. Whereupon, watch what happens to our good works: they cease to be the vital acts wherein an ontologically real “new life” consists and manifests itself; they become mere human responses to divine mercy—nice, but totally irrelevant to our justification—or else they become zombie-like motions produced in us by irresistible divine impulses, whereby God exhibits His glory in His elect.

The Protestant Reformers, however, impatient with metaphysics, preferred not to cope with such an entity and denied its existence.4 To them it seemed simpler to say that grace is something wholly in God, namely, His favor towards us. But then, if grace is not something real in man, our “justification” can no longer be conceived as a real change in us; it will have to become a sheer declaration on God’s part, e.g. a declaration that, thanks to the work of Christ, He will henceforth consider us as just, even though we remain inwardly the sinners we always were. Hence, the Protestant doctrine of “forensic” or “extrinsic” justification. Now watch what happens to our own act of faith: it ceases to be the foundational act of an interior renewal and becomes a mere requirement, devoid of any salvific power in its own right, which God arbitrarily sets as the condition on which He will declare us just. Whereupon, watch what happens to our good works: they cease to be the vital acts wherein an ontologically real “new life” consists and manifests itself; they become mere human responses to divine mercy—nice, but totally irrelevant to our justification—or else they become zombie-like motions produced in us by irresistible divine impulses, whereby God exhibits His glory in His elect.

Again your throwing verses around but I’m asking how do you deal with the verse of Jesus saying your faith has saved you and Paul saying were justified by faith apart from works? These verses are just being ignored. In all honesty I’m not trying to convert anybody here I just want to know how you deal with these verses that say our faith saves us? Not sure what the second part was about or where it came from.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

WorkingFaith;10890397] Without the bible contradicting itself how do you get around the fact that Jesus said your faith has saved you

Because these first century Christians were in Jesus physical presence who was doing the “Work” and will of the Father. With Jesus present all that is required is faith. After Jesus ascended to heaven, Jesus commissioned His Church to do the greater works and sent them to baptise and it is here during the sacramental baptism that Jesus baptizes because Jesus is present, because scripture confirms it is “baptism that saves you now”. 1 Pet 3:20-21
God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.

and the fact that paul says were justified by faith apart from works?

Paul a pharisee Jew, relates the works to the law which cannot save you. The works of the law only atoned for sins, the works of the law never removed or forgave sin in order to be saved, let alone forgiven. The blood of goats and bulls could never save anyone.

Jesus placed a condition inorder to see and or enter the kingdom of God to Nicodemus, which is baptism. John 3:4-5 (Jn 3:5 Jesus answered (Nicodemus), “Amen, amen, I say to you,** no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”**

You can’t just throw away what I said and throw verses at me you have to deal with other verses too.

St.James “works” does not contradict St.Paul’s “works”, when James writes; “Faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead” (James 2:17) The works James is referencing comes from the law given by Christ to Love God and Love of neighbor. One cannot possess such works without grace and faith, which is given freely from the works of Christ our head, who commissioned His (body) the Church to continue His Work with His presence in His body which is the Church.

One cannot do the works without faith, and one cannot have faith without the works. Thus St.James writes in verse 18 Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

In conclusion we cannot save ourselves by anymeans including works or by deeds by themselves, nor by faith alone. Christ has to be truly present in us in order for us to have faith to do the works, which we could never do by ourselves. No one can love their heighbor or their enemy unless Christ is present in the person doing the work which fulfills the law and the prophets which is to Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. This is the greater work that we are called to be demonstrated by our faith.

Peace be with you