Factory Farming

[mapleoak]

Not to mention when traveling often animals are packed beyond necessary to the point where they are practically standing on top of each other if they are cows for instance. I am sure all this is in the name of getting more animals to the slaugther house at once rather then the animals not hurting each other.

This is also false. By the time they got to their destination, they would all be dead. I am sure you knew that though, right? Or did the liberal source for this propaganda conveniently leave out that information.

 

[mapleoak]

When people start caring about the most innocent humans, the unborn and the elderly, they will start caring more about the environment, the way meat is produced, etc. The problem is, many people care more about animals than humans. Let’s balance the scale, folks. When the abortion laws were passed, the mantra was “Keep the government out of our wombs!” yet all they did was introduce more government exactly there, with Planned Parenthood, etc. The only way to keep government away from a process is to not allow them to pass laws regarding that process. I will vote no to this prop and hope that the industry will improve itself. I won’t mind paying a bit more for meat.

By the way, did you ever notice how much more ‘natural’ products cost? Or recycled?

And of course abortion and high consumer prices go hand in hand. Labor being scarce due to a multitudinous number of them being murdered off.

 

[mapleoak]

He is probably refering to people like me who are pointing out that sometimes they are packed a bit too tight. I certainly donlt think that all situations are like that and I do understand that traveling conditions must be tight to a certain degree. Also I would say that just because someone works in the business doesn;t mean they know how EVERYONE works in the business.

No, but I am sure they would be a much better authority on USDA regulations and requirements, and industry know how than someone who claims to be any authority deriving their knowledge from PBS. Most businesses in a given field, farming especially, network heavily amongst those in the agricultural industry.

 

[mapleoak]

As for me stopping eating meat. Well right now I can;t afford free range meat, and as far as I know Georgia doesn;t seem to have very many of those farms anyway and even if they did we donlt have one of those bunker freezers so we can;t do the buy half a cow thing or even a large section of it.

And if you think free range meat is expensive now (why? Because it is inefficient and impractical for feeding large numbers of people) just imagine if everyone demanded free range meat? Ultimately no one would get what they demand since the availability would be so slim hence the cost would sky rocket, forcing people back to guess what? Safe, wholesome beef and beef products produced by efficient, USDA certified farms.

 

[geezerbob]

I chuckle every time I read a thread like this. Back in the dark ages when I was a little boy, most meats were local, as were butter and milk. The milk man delivered raw milk three times a week. The butterfat in the milk varied tremendously, depending on the breed of cow it came from. The taste of the milk also varied, depending on what the cows had been eating. Back then, they were all pasture fed, and one cow eating the wrong weed would impart an off taste to hundreds of gallons of otherwise good milk. No matter. The farmer didn’t taste test it and the consumers were stuck with it.

When the cows got too old to produce milk, they made their way to the local meat market. Again, the cow’s diet affected the flavor of the meat, some being so bitter that it was inedible, and we often paid for the butcher’s thumb. There were fewer safeguards and no quality control. I was sold meat that had already spoiled on more than one occasion and all of it was so tough that it had to be slow cooked with moist heat. As for ground meat, only the butcher knew what was really in it, and it was probably better that way.

Today, we get pasteurized milk which has a consistent fat content, a predictable taste, and a much longer refrigerator life. And, you don’t have to shake the bottle to mix the cream with the milk before using. I much prefer today’s product.

I can go in Wal-Mart, Piggly-Wiggly, Kroger’s, or Publix and buy meat with a reasonable expectation that it will be fresh and tasty. The ground beef will be all beef and will have a stated fat content on the label. Many parts of animals that used to go into ground beef and sausages are no longer permitted. Again, when compared with what is available for our consumption today, the “good old days” don’t seem nearly so good.

For you idealists out there who want to go back to the way it was, be my guest. I’ll stick with today’s products, thank you.

One question: If USDA violations are swept under the rug, where did all these stories I’ve been reading about meat recalls come from?

 

[mapleoak]

I chuckle every time I read a thread like this. Back in the dark ages when I was a little boy, most meats were local, as were butter and milk. The milk man delivered raw milk three times a week. The butterfat in the milk varied tremendously, depending on the breed of cow it came from. The taste of the milk also varied, depending on what the cows had been eating. Back then, they were all pasture fed, and one cow eating the wrong weed would impart an off taste to hundreds of gallons of otherwise good milk. No matter. The farmer didn’t taste test it and the consumers were stuck with it.

When the cows got too old to produce milk, they made their way to the local meat market. Again, the cow’s diet affected the flavor of the meat, some being so bitter that it was inedible, and we often paid for the butcher’s thumb. There were fewer safeguards and no quality control. I was sold meat that had already spoiled on more than one occasion and all of it was so tough that it had to be slow cooked with moist heat. As for ground meat, only the butcher knew what was really in it, and it was probably better that way.

Today, we get pasteurized milk which has a consistent fat content, a predictable taste, and a much longer refrigerator life. And, you don’t have to shake the bottle to mix the cream with the milk before using. I much prefer today’s product.

I can go in Wal-Mart, Piggly-Wiggly, Kroger’s, or Publix and buy meat with a reasonable expectation that it will be fresh and tasty. The ground beef will be all beef and will have a stated fat content on the label. Many parts of animals that used to go into ground beef and sausages are no longer permitted. Again, when compared with what is available for our consumption today, the “good old days” don’t seem nearly so good.

For you idealists out there who want to go back to the way it was, be my guest. I’ll stick with today’s products, thank you.

One question: If USDA violations are swept under the rug, where did all these stories I’ve been reading about meat recalls come from?

Excellent post. Indeed, the farming industry in the U.S. has certainly come a long way over the years in becoming the world’s leader in terms of quality, safety, and consumer confidence for food production. The assurance of safety and quality of our milk supply for example is unsurpassed anywhere in the world.

 

[Calliso]

I agree that things have come a long way. My whole basic point though is that suffering does happen. Mistakes do happen. Regulations do get violated. I mean do you think inspectors have the time to inspect every farm all the time? Be at every slaughterhouse all the time? No they donlt. And it;s like the packing them too tight thing…actually yes the sources I have read did say that often some of them die, they also did say though that that doesn;t always happen. And I will admit maybe it happens very little at least with cattle. And also I agree that with the current demand it would be impossible for everyone to have the meat, eggs and milk they want and get it organic and free ranged. But if the demand wasn;t so high maybe… But I do except and realize and have no problem with the fact that not everyone wants to or can go vegetarian or vegan and I donlt have a problem with someone buying factory farmed meat if that is what they have to to feed themselves and their family. I just feel guilt for myself because while I couldn;t afford free ranged meat very often I could afford to go on a vegetarian diet and it;s mainly my own greed not concerns of feeding my family that drive it.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

It seems to me that if you are super concerned about this you have a few options.

1. Hunt for your meat. Kill it and butcher it yourself.
2. Move to the country and raise it, then kill it and butcher it. You’ll stave for the first five years until you figure out how it’s done.
3. Go completely vegan. Although all grain, veggies and fruits are factory farmed. They deserve a better life too. Plants are no different than animals, the have stress and are raised in conditions that are too crowded for proper growth.
4. If you are not willing to take up your responsibility to do it yourself then stop complaining about the exceptions to the rule …ie factory farming and slaughter houses that overlook unhealthy practices.

Our food is still supplied by family farms and middle class butchers at the processors just like you with very few outbreaks of disease from either in proportion to the number of people served.

Find a cause worth fighting for and changing minds like abortion.

 

[Newbie2]

Chickens are nasty. But tasty.

Oye! I think I’ve soiled myself laughing.

 

[Calliso]

It seems to me that if you are super concerned about this you have a few options.

1. Hunt for your meat. Kill it and butcher it yourself.
2. Move to the country and raise it, then kill it and butcher it. You’ll stave for the first five years until you figure out how it’s done.
3. Go completely vegan. Although all grain, veggies and fruits are factory farmed. They deserve a better life too. Plants are no different than animals, the have stress and are raised in conditions that are too crowded for proper growth.
4. If you are not willing to take up your responsibility to do it yourself then stop complaining about the exceptions to the rule …ie factory farming and slaughter houses that overlook unhealthy practices.

Our food is still supplied by family farms and middle class butchers at the processors just like you with very few outbreaks of disease from either in proportion to the number of people served.

Find a cause worth fighting for and changing minds like abortion.

Ok I am sorry but the plant option is just silly and I am sure you know that. Plants are not factory farmed in the same way as animals…and really they can;t be. Plants donlt think or feel…they have no nervous systems… Seriously you were making a decent point up until then. Really though if someone is up for it going vegan is a great way to reduce animal suffering. And you are right plants can be raised too closely together to trully grow to their full potential. But that has nothing to do with suffering, it has to do with things like space for root growth, competition for water and other nutrients and access to sunlight.

I would also add another thing to do is find a farm that treats their animals in a way you find acceptable but you will likely have to pay more. Though that apparently isn;t always the case.

I admit though I have been sorta tempted by the idea of raising chickens. I know my friend once almost did…until she found out it was illegal to keep chickens in her neighbor and I think the chicks she got from a friend of hers were actually turning out to be mostly roosters…which would have been bad…

I have also hunted before though with no success haha.

 

[MooCowSteph]

I can’t decide if I even want to continue this debate. I really don’t think anyone’s minds are going to be changed, especially mind with words like liberal and ignorant being thrown around, of which I am neither.

I’ll admit that I am not a farmer, butcher, or animal. And I’ll admit that my knowledge of the subject has come mostly from books and articles (none written by PETA however!). I got in this debate because I feel very strongly about providing my family with the most natural, healtiest foods available, and I also care about the animals I am eating.

Mapleoak - I’ll try to address some of your many points. Antibiotic use - a lot of people think it’s linked to antibiotic resistance and superbugs. “Name a pesticide that is found in food? And I don’t mean food coming farmer Jones down the road.” There have been multitudes of studies done to determine the amount of residues found in food. There are varying amounts found on produce, and those labeled “the dirty dozen” have the most. Also, pesticides tend to hang around it fatty tissues and deposits, so whole milk and butter and cheese will have many more than skim milk. We really don’t know what the long term effects of these chemicals will be, as they really have not been tested long term. However, the skyrocking cancer rates are most certainly linked, in my and many others’ opinions. I’m also not fond of arsenic in my chicken. And the pesticides commonly used all over the country have been blamed for turning our sealife into hermaphrodites. And the EU banned the hormones in 1988 that we still use in our cows.

This is totally false. Do you honestly believe the liberal spin that one person is doing all the work? Therefore the more animals being processed, the harder and faster that person has to work. Whew!, talk about a hard days work!

In 1983 the average number of cows on a slaughtering line was 175; today it’s 400. While advances in technology are certainly going to account for that, note that the figures are not cattle per plant, but per line. You can only cram so many extra people per line. They are most certainly expecting more cattle per hour, per worker, than in the past.

And no, zero tolerance doesn’t work. It doesn’t work in schools, it doesn’t work in the workplace. Zero tolerance is a stupid policy anyway; we cannot apply the same punsihment to every crime. We should allow those in authority to exercise judgement. It’s almost impossible to achieve a perfect rating in a slaughterhouse. Animals are going to get hurt. Accidents arew going to happen. It’s unfortunate. But since there is a zero tolerance approach, inspectors are urged by factory owners to fudge reports and brush violations under the rug rather than to shut down an entire plant and put people out of work. I’m not saying this happens all the time, but common sense tells us it’s probaly happening a lot.

One question: If USDA violations are swept under the rug, where did all these stories I’ve been reading about meat recalls come from?

Perhaps if the regulations worked better they would not have had such vast quantities of meat to recall in the first place.

I agree, as I mentioned in my first or second post, that sustainable doesn’t = organic and organic doesn’t = sustainable.

 

[MooCowSteph]

Newbie2 had an excellent reply to this:

$2 a pound beef from farms with 2 cows named Bettie and Bossie is a privilege, not an economic reality.
I guess I am privileged then. Seriously, though, I know I was very blessed to find this, although in just a few minutes on the internet I found another farm near me offering the same product for $2.89 a pound. They’re out there. And I don’t live in the country, but live about 15 miles from Batimore City, Maryland. Not everyone wants that, so it’s OK that it’s not an option for everyone. But the option does indeed exist.

I live where cattle and poultry are raised.

All meat cattle that I have seen are raised on pasture, then most go to stockyards for a few weeks to be “finished” with grain. That means fattened up. We Americans like fatty beef. (Those that aren’t grain finished get sold as “grass fed beef.”)

Organic cattle also are raised on pastures. They do not get the antibiotics and growth hormones, so they are smaller, which means less $$ at sale time. Those that are grain finished are fed organic grain, which is more expensive. So organic beef is more expensive.

I’ve seen cattle in pasture and cattle in stockyards. Both seem happy to me. They are not smart, like wild animals. They are bred to be dumb.

Now remember I’m getting my knowledge from PBS
but I read that a typical cow’s diet is 95% grain. The average herd size is 850, according to the USDA. Only 23% of the farms in this country have fewer than 100 cattle, and 30% have more than 1,000, with a good number of those being WAY more than 1,000. You can’t really pasture 5,000 cattle. The pasture would be gone in a day. Those monster factory farms have thousands of cattle standing around in mud and eating grains.

Organic cattle can reach the same size and conventional, just not in the same amount of time.

 

[mapleoak]

Now remember I’m getting my knowledge from PBS
but I read that a typical cow’s diet is 95% grain.

This is a good example of being misinformed (please note I don’t mean any offense, only pointing out that there is a LOT of misinformation out there due to biased agendas that are being pushed). A cow is a ruminant with very specific nutrient and forage needs. A cow cannot live on a 95% grain ration, but rather requires a significant percentage of its diet to be from forage. This is because the first stomach of a cow (they have four) or rumen is populated with microbacteria which partially break down the food that the cow eats, along with further help from a second mastication process after regurgitation. Since the cows very life is directly dependent on the PH of the rumen (differing from humans, as humans are indirectly affected by bacterial loss in the gut via starvation through diarreah) A 95% grain ration would cause the microbacteria in the cow’s rumen to be adversely affected creating a very low PH (acidic) environment. This causes a life threating condition called acidosis which, if uncorrected (usually emergency treatment would require high levels of calcium carbonate to neutralize the acidic condition of the bloodstream) can kill the cow within a matter of hours. Unlike humans who do not have bacteria in their stomachs, cows are directly dependent on the proper balance and health of the bacteria in their stomachs. In order to ensure the proper balance, the cows require large amounts of roughage in either the form of forage, hay, or pasture.

The average herd size is 850, according to the USDA. Only 23% of the farms in this country have fewer than 100 cattle, and 30% have more than 1,000, with a good number of those being WAY more than 1,000. You can’t really pasture 5,000 cattle. The pasture would be gone in a day.

To pasture a cow requires a certain amount of land. True you can’t pasture 5000 cattle on the same amount of land as one cow, and is a vital missing bit of information from the above numbers. I know of many farms that successfully pasture 500+ cows through consciencious use of land (lots of it required) and the use of rotational grazing.

 

[mapleoak]

There have been multitudes of studies done to determine the amount of residues found in food. There are varying amounts found on produce, and those labeled “the dirty dozen” have the most. Also, pesticides tend to hang around it fatty tissues and deposits, so whole milk and butter and cheese will have many more than skim milk. We really don’t know what the long term effects of these chemicals will be, as they really have not been tested long term.

What we do know however is that people live much longer and healthier lives due to a very large degree on the safety and quality of our milk and food supply whether residues of debatable significance are of any consequence or not. Taking a walk out in the park, one is exposed to much more real hazards from the air one breathes and from the environment than anything found in ones food. It is much more likely that people are getting cancer from strolling in the park than eating food.

 

[Newbie2]

And no, zero tolerance doesn’t work. It doesn’t work in schools, it doesn’t work in the workplace. Zero tolerance is a stupid policy anyway; we cannot apply the same punsihment to every crime. We should allow those in authority to exercise judgement. It’s almost impossible to achieve a perfect rating in a slaughterhouse. Animals are going to get hurt. Accidents arew going to happen. It’s unfortunate. But since there is a zero tolerance approach, inspectors are urged by factory owners to fudge reports and brush violations under the rug rather than to shut down an entire plant and put people out of work. I’m not saying this happens all the time, but common sense tells us it’s probaly happening a lot.

Perhaps if the regulations worked better they would not have had such vast quantities of meat to recall in the first place.

I agree that regulations should be enforced, but totally disagree that the “zero tolerance” policy is responsible for the lapses in following regulations…that is a non sequitur.

Lapses in following procedures happen because the rules are supposed to be strictly enforced? That’s like saying that there would be less illegal drug activity in schools if they were to drop the no-tolerance policies against drugs in schools.

If there’s corruption with strict laws, you think there will be less with more lax laws?

 

[MooCowSteph]

This is a good example of being misinformed (please note I don’t mean any offense, only pointing out that there is a LOT of misinformation out there due to biased agendas that are being pushed). A cow is a ruminant with very specific nutrient and forage needs. A cow cannot live on a 95% grain ration, but rather requires a significant percentage of its diet to be from forage. This is because the first stomach of a cow (they have four) or rumen is populated with microbacteria which partially break down the food that the cow eats, along with further help from a second mastication process after regurgitation. Since the cows very life is directly dependent on the PH of the rumen (differing from humans, as humans are indirectly affected by bacterial loss in the gut via starvation through diarreah) A 95% grain ration would cause the microbacteria in the cow’s rumen to be adversely affected creating a very low PH (acidic) environment. This causes a life threating condition called acidosis which, if uncorrected (usually emergency treatment would require high levels of calcium carbonate to neutralize the acidic condition of the bloodstream) can kill the cow within a matter of hours. Unlike humans who do not have bacteria in their stomachs, cows are directly dependent on the proper balance and health of the bacteria in their stomachs. In order to ensure the proper balance, the cows require large amounts of roughage in either the form of forage, hay, or pasture.

To pasture a cow requires a certain amount of land. True you can’t pasture 5000 cattle on the same amount of land as one cow, and is a vital missing bit of information from the above numbers. I know of many farms that successfully pasture 500+ cows through consciencious use of land (lots of it required) and the use of rotational grazing.

MooCowSteph;4234253:

And the reason e-coli is in the feces of the animals to begin with is because they’re being fed a diet contrary to their needs - primarily grains that don’t allow the Ph balance of their stomachs to kill the e-coli bacteria. So they’re not always getting to the grocery disease-free and clean.

Another example of liberal ignorance shoved upon unwitting haplings who believe whatever propoganda is thrown at them. Did you know E. coli is present in ALL warm blooded animals’ intestinal tracts?

I’ll admit that my sources have had agendas, so I went looking for less biased sources and found this. Grain Feeding and the Dissemination of Acid-Resistant Escherichia coli from Cattle

Francisco Diez-Gonzalez, Todd R. Callaway, Menas G. Kizoulis, James B. Russell *

The gastric stomach of humans is a barrier to food-borne pathogens, but Escherichia coli can survive at pH 2.0if it is grown under mildly acidic conditions. Cattle are a natural reservoir for pathogenic E.*coli, and cattle fed mostly grain had lower colonic pH and more acid-resistant E.*coli than cattle fed only hay. On the basis of numbers and survival after acid shock, cattle that were fed grain had 106-fold more acid-resistant E.*coli than cattle fed hay, but a brief period of hay feeding decreased the acid-resistant count substantially.

Division of Biological Sciences, Section of Microbiology, Cornell University and Agricultural Research Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Ithaca, NY 14853-8101, USA. *
sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/281/5383/1666

This article discusses how to introduce grains in a safe way, reaching a 90/10 ratio. So maybe 95% is high, but apparently 90% isn’t unusual. And I’m reading a lot about hay, not fresh grass, so the animals still don’t have to be pastured.

 

[Sam_Maloney]

I’m happy Steph is taking a free market approach, I wish more people would.

The majority of producers would very happily bypass the feedlot system and sell directly to the community of possible: the vast majority of bad stuff-- like sub theraputic anti-biotics-- happen there, not out on the farm.

But I hope everyone whose posted on this thread understands a couple crucial points:

First, you won’t find unbiased information anywhere in the MSM or university press. The anti-meat, anti-farm bias is so extreme it makes them look even handed on issues like abortion.

Why? Because they don’t believe the men and women who live on farms are smart enough to manage the land. I’ve heard Ted Turner [my neighbor, btw] say as much on TV without being challanged. It isn’t about the animals, its about putting a petty bureaucrat in charge of every inch of ground in the US.

Second, understand that the vast majority of people who work with livestock do so because they love to work with God’s creatures beneath his open sky. It is hard, dangerous, dirty work, sometimes freezing cold, sometimes unbearably hot, but always beautiful. You spend your life serving them: their needs come first, and they don’t care what time it is, if you’d like to make it to Mass, or if it’s 30 below.

It’s not about the money because there isn’t any. But the worst thing about it is that we are constantly treated like monsters who torture animals for fun and rape mother nature in every way we can.

I don’t expect grattitude, this is the life I’ve chosen, and it has its own rewards. But if I’d have known the kind of slander I’ve had to endure, I think I would have chosen differently.

Third, every sanctimonious regulation you pass will just drive a few more of us out of business, and more of your food will end up being imported from countries with no concern for human rights, let alone animal rights. It will be ripe with every sort of chemical, drug and bacteria you can imagine. But your meat isn’t labled, even though the family farmer has lobbied for ‘Country of Origin Labels’ [COOL] for years-- Have you even noticed?

It’s fine to be concerned about food saftey and humane treatment, but we are fighting for our livlihoods, here. For the ranches our families have owned for generations, for our futures. So be very careful when you point the finger, and understand that your words and actions have consequences for human beings, too; not just chickens.

 

[MooCowSteph]

Third, every sanctimonious regulation you pass will just drive a few more of us out of business, and more of your food will end up being imported from countries with no concern for human rights, let alone animal rights. It will be ripe with every sort of chemical, drug and bacteria you can imagine. But your meat isn’t labled, even though the family farmer has lobbied for ‘Country of Origin Labels’ [COOL] for years-- Have you even noticed?

It’s fine to be concerned about food saftey and humane treatment, but we are fighting for our livlihoods, here. For the ranches our families have owned for generations, for our futures. So be very careful when you point the finger, and understand that your words and actions have consequences for human beings, too; not just chickens.

Very true, Sam. Very true. Is meat included on the new COOL laws taking effect today?

 

[Sam_Maloney]

Yes and no: 6 years after the original mandate-- years in which the meat packers and major retailers did everything possible to prevent it-- the regs are going into effect, and include meat.

But not if the meat has been cooked in anyway, combined with other ingredients [including breading or sauces], restructured [think pressed ham] or cured.

So there’s still no way to know where your Spaghetti sauce with sausage actually came from, 50 years after your transistor radio had to be labeled.

Oh, and the regs don’t cover restaurants. For example, the lobster bisque at Red Lobster will continue to be cooked and frozen in mainland China, and shipped to your local franchise.