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Fauken
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Especially considering Dr. Peters is considered one of, if not the most, authoritative canonists in the United States.
Failure to understand Marriage Sacrament
- Thread starter farronwolf
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Phemie
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Let me give you a scenario.
Two young people get married, very much in love. She wants to be a social worker and he supports her in this. It requires her to go to school in another town for a few months. He’s working and paying for her education.
Out of the blue he gets an email saying “I’m getting a divorce and I’m not coming home.” He’s devastated, but what can he do? The divorce goes through, she becomes a social worker, sleeps with one of her clients and has a baby.
He meets a Catholic girl he wants to marry. They meet with the priest, are informed he needs to have his marriage investigated and they do all the paperwork and interviews. The tribunal finds that she was psychologically unable to consent to marriage and he’s granted a decree of nullity. Note that he wasn’t baptized so he could have gone the “dissolution in favor of the faith” route. Should he have been forced to be celibate because he married her in good faith?
Another scenario. A man transfers into the local KofC Council from one in another town. He’s living common-law and has a daughter. This new council isn’t too concerned about his cohabitation until he’s elected to an officer’s position and then the older members of the KofC kick up a stink because of his marital status.
Within a short time the couple marries but less than a year later she is gone and shacked up with a man at least 25 years her senior. Do you think they contracted a valid marriage or was he coerced to get married because of what happened with the Knights? And please don’t think I’m blaming the Knights – he could have simply left the KofC and kept living the way he was.
farronwolf
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Without getting into your specific scenarios, as we can come up with scenarios all day long for what if’s.
I can understand young people rushing into marriage and ending the marriage shortly afterwards especially marriages outside the Church, much better than decades long ones that took place in the Church.
The K of C’s should not have allowed his membership in the first place as the priest should not have signed the form 100 in for him to become a member if he was living in that relationship.
I can understand young people rushing into marriage and ending the marriage shortly afterwards especially marriages outside the Church, much better than decades long ones that took place in the Church.
The K of C’s should not have allowed his membership in the first place as the priest should not have signed the form 100 in for him to become a member if he was living in that relationship.
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Phemie
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But did they contract a valid marriage in your eyes? Remember, the Church presumed that their marriage was valid even if it was not a Catholic marriage. Should he have been forced to lead a celibate life because he meant his “vows” and she didn’t? This is not a “what if?”, this is a real case.
That’s beside the point. It happened. Do you think they contracted a valid marriage? Or did they lack consent because he felt he had no choice if he wanted to remain a Knight?
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farronwolf
New member
Annulment nation
www.catholicworldreport.com
This is a bit dated, but goes to why the process and results are hard to square.
farronwolf
New member
No it isn’t beside the point. Had he not been admitted into the KC’s there would be no issue of him being an officer. Had the priest not signed the form saying he was a practical catholic, which clearly he wasn’t, not an issue,
Why can’t people just take responsibility for what they do? Is it that hard for adults?
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Phemie
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There are many things that are not considered in this article.
How many divorces are there in other Catholic countries?
How many applications for a decree of nullity happen in other countries?
If Spain say has way fewer divorces and few people apply for a decree of nullity, of course their numbers are going to be lower.
How many divorced Catholics do you know? How many have petitioned for a decree of nullity? I know many and most couldn’t be bothered to petition for a decree, they just get remarried outside the Church. Or they don’t bother to remarry at all, they simply cohabit.
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Phemie
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You still haven’t answered my question. In each case was a valid marriage contracted?Phemie:
No it isn’t beside the point. Had he not been admitted into the KC’s there would be no issue of him being an officer. Had the priest not signed the form saying he was a practical catholic, which clearly he wasn’t, not an issue,
Why can’t people just take responsibility for what they do? Is it that hard for adults?
farronwolf
New member
Yes.
The fact that to be an officer he choose to be married was his choice. He consented.
Why is divorce something that folks are so willing to say oh but, but, but.
I guess I need to convince my wife that some young hottie seduced me and so it really wasnt a sin to have sex with her. Pretty certain the wife, nor the church, nor many members on this forum would agree with that defense.
The fact that to be an officer he choose to be married was his choice. He consented.
Why is divorce something that folks are so willing to say oh but, but, but.
I guess I need to convince my wife that some young hottie seduced me and so it really wasnt a sin to have sex with her. Pretty certain the wife, nor the church, nor many members on this forum would agree with that defense.
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farronwolf
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Actually I know quite a few. Our current priest. Several of the accolites, some who teach religious ed.
Of my 8 sisters 6 have been divorced. Two have gotten annulments 4 have not bothered with them because they no longer are practicing.
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1ke
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It also has a number of errors in it, which is disconcerting but not unexpected from a journalist who we know literally nothing about other than “J. J. Ziegler writes from North Carolina.”
The Church need not provide a process at all for the examination of marriages, she can bind or she can loose. She does so out of mercy.
That it is imperfectly run is a function of its humanness. Like every other human endeavor.
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Phemie
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Actually even the priest who married them had his doubts. But he still married them. Or rather, he received their consent.
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TheLittleLady
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What makes a marriage valid is consent. What makes it sacramental is matter and form
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Anesti33
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farronwolf
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Is this the same priest who signed the form 100? If a priest has doubts why in the world would he have married them?
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Vico
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The matrimonial covenant is not established with God but between the couple.Vico:
I don’t necessarily think this is what it says. While marriage is based on contract, one can not say that vows aren’t present. One might argue they aren’t absolutely necessary but in reality, this particular contract is formed before God (much like vow) … or so I remember. Haven’t been to many marriages that I remember honestly.
farronwolf
New member
So are you suggesting that when they were redoing the canon last time there was no discussion of whether or not to leave the text regarding Church approval in the canon or not?farronwolf:
I have no idea where you’re getting this from, and if your position is, “Well, I can always find some canon lawyer out there who agrees with my own views”, then it’s pointless to discuss the matter, as you’re only interested in getting affirmation of your own view, not in what the actual correct answer might be.
I would have to look again, but was reading an article by a priest who is also a canon lawyer who disagrees with Peters. I believe there is disagreement related to the sacrament and the process between the two camps. If I am not mistaken, and I might be, there is also differences as to whether or not this applies to non condordat nations due to it be sacramental and not necessarily just the legal aspect of it.
But the point is that there are differences of opinions, and there has been discussion over the past 50 years as to what role the Church should play in the process for its members.
One as I understand it is that it would be too burdensome on the diocese if they actually followed canon law and required it of all seeking separation or divorce.
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1ke
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No.
Divorce often accompanies separation, but it need not.
One can be legally separated, which is not a divorce. One can also cease common living while remaining married and taking no legal steps to end it at all.
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