Faith Alone and Matthew 7

[JonNC]

And what differentiates a living faith with a dead faith?

I like the way PJM answered.

Jon

 

[zz912]

I like the way PJM answered.

Jon

So faith alone is not sufficient. Thanks.

 

[catholictiger]

just to add to this real quick but I think the pope in one of his gernal aduinces said it the best

but

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 5:6[/BIBLEDRB]

also this translation doesn’t show it but NAB shows faith working through love.

so I think that settles it we can stop talking now

 

[wmscott]

JonNC- Christ is defining what kind of faith saves - a faith that works through love, as we are to love God with all our heart, and our neighbors as ourselves.
ME- Exactly as James points out, correct? that we must not only have faith in Christ, but also practice the Law of Love, if we are to endure till the end and be saved. Otherwise, that faith is useless. Hence, Faith without Works is Dead. I like the way you put your statement Jon. Peace

So we could also add in here 1 Corinthians 13:13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Notice Love is cited as greater than faith.

 

[JonNC]

So faith alone is not sufficient. Thanks.

Of course it is, but as Galatians says, it must be a faith that works through love.

Jon

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by zz912
So faith alone is not sufficient. Thanks.

Of course it is, but as Galatians says, it must be a faith that works through love.

Jon

Hi again Jon;

Are you aware my friend that your position is not “biblical,” in fact it opposses what the ENTIRE bible actually teaches. Kind of an iffy statement for me to make, in that you do correctly point out that Faith “must be lived.” But I’m concerened that some reading your post, will miss this key point, and asume that “Faith Alone,” in an “absolute sense” is sufficient for salvation, while Works are just a nice OPTION. IT"S NOT! Please don’t think I’m picking on you.

Jesus Himself tells us FIVE times in the NT that salvation hinges on mutiple factors, amongst them; Faith CERTAINLY being One of THINGSwe MUSt have 'Do.We MUST :take up our crosses daily and follow the example of Jesus. If, If we are to attain Salvation.

**Luke.14: 7 **"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

Another MUST DO: Matt.19: 17 “"And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. **If you would **enter life, keep the commandments.”

And **John 3:5 **adds another MUST: Christian Baptism [Which I think you’ll agree is necessary?]

AGAPE Bible Study of Genesis

Question: How did St. James define Noah’s kind of faith? See James 2:14-26.

Answer: St. James expressed this kind of faith as living, active faith. He wrote that this is the kind of faith that brings salvation: You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified. …]. As a body without a spirit is dead, so is faith without deeds (Jm 2:24, 26). If Noah had only believed the flood was coming but had failed to be obedient to God’s commands to build and make provisions for the Ark, he and his family would have been lost: In the same way faith: if good deeds do not go with it, it is quite dead (Jm 2:17).

Romans 2: 13 -16 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, **but the doers of the law who will be justified." **

**Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

**Rom.2: 13 **“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

James 2:14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,*** For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.***

Jon, the issue here is that Faith alone would serve ONLY the person in posseson of it. That my friend is not what Christ has in mind.John.13: 34" A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." And this is precisely what james picks up on.

**Paul tells is in Cor. ** **1 Cor. 12 5: 11 ** “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. **To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” **

If we are to be Faithful, not just ***“faith-filled”; ***Good actions, [works], Charity, love of everyone as we love ourselves, is in an absolute sense; a MANDATE from Jesus. Faith is just the starting point: what we do with our faith, is what we will be judged on. WHY?

Faith is a Spiritual “Thing” and can and does come ONLY from God. We can’t take ANY credit for having it; BUT we do get “credit /merit” from God for LIVING IT. That my friend is why the CC is a Sacramental Church, with Our-Faith based on Good Works. That is where and how we find the courage to perform, as God both Expects and Demands, our Works of charity. The Graces granted to us By Christ who Himself Instituted the 7 Sacraments for this very purpose, are what has permitted the CC to lead the Faith communities for some 2,000 years.

Faith is an ESSENTIAL part of what is needed for one’s Personal salvation; but Faith alone will simply NOT get anyone to heaven. Because God has so Mandated; that Just as he Proved His love fo us; we too MUST prove our Love for Him; which IS T BE ACCOMPLISHED by love of neighbor.

God Bless my friend, hope you found this helpful?

Pat

 

[Being_Brave]

Catholics literally say “works”, but when you think about it, the things that are truely considered good works are just ways of living a Christian lifestyle. Doing good for others without expecting anything in return. Donating your time or finances to someone or some cause that truely needs it, and not expecting to be praised for it. My Baptist friends have a hard time accepting that they actually do “good works” too.

 

[jericho777]

How does Faith Alone square with Matthew 7:21-27? It is clear from the Gospel that works (specifically DOING the will of God) are necessary for salvation. The believers who had faith, but only works in their capacity of their offices but no works of mercy, were tossed aside by Jesus.

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who **does the will **of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’
24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and **acts on them **will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”

You are picking up Jesus thought mid stream. Start back at verse15 to see what He was referring to.

15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

He was referring to false prophets that are really wolves in sheep’s clothing having evil intentions. They were never saved in the first place. Notice the fruit they bear is after their own kind. They cannot bear good fruit because those who are planted in Christ will bear good fruit.

Then the rest of the thought proceeds from there. Obviously they are trying to be religious in their own will not relying on Christ as the true source of salvation. They were falsely prophesying in Jesus name. It’s that not they did not bear fruit or have works they were in capable of bearing good fruit because they were really wolves.

So in reality these verses are not speaking about faith alone but discerning false prophets and false believers.

 

[Dokimas]

How does Faith Alone square with Matthew 7:21-27? It is clear from the Gospel that works (specifically DOING the will of God) are necessary for salvation. The believers who had faith, but only works in their capacity of their offices but no works of mercy, were tossed aside by Jesus.

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who **does the will **of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’
24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and **acts on them **will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”

It helps to understand faith does not equal belief.

As James said, faith implies a response (a work) as Paul said in Eph 2 8-10.

 

[JonNC]

=PJM;7641210]Hi again Jon;

Are you aware my friend that your position is not “biblical,” in fact it opposses what the ENTIRE bible actually teaches. Kind of an iffy statement for me to make, in that you do correctly point out that Faith “must be lived.” But I’m concerened that some reading your post, will miss this key point, and asume that “Faith Alone,” in an “absolute sense” is sufficient for salvation, while Works are just a nice OPTION. IT"S NOT! Please don’t think I’m picking on you.

Of course, Pat, I don’t think you’re picking on me. I do think, however, that even with the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, we still have different ways of expressing Justification, and the roles of faith and works.
But I think you are misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m not saying that works are just a nice option; quite the opposite. Just a couple of references of the Lutheran position;

1. from the Formula of Concord:

Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

This is clearly saying that good works are not an option for the regenereate. We cannot, by free choice, choose not to do good works. It overtly says that to do so is intentional sin!!

1. Luther’s Preface to Galatians 5:6;

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Luther here is saying that those who think that works are a “nice option”, in effect, despise the Grace of God!! I can’t think of a Catholic who phrases the importance of good works more strongly. In the last two sentences, Luther then clarifies the life of the regenerate: inwardly faith towards God, and outwardly love (charity) towards our fellow man. This, in my reading, mirrors the words: We must love the Lord our God with all our heart…, and our neighbors as ourselves.

Jesus Himself tells us FIVE times in the NT that salvation hinges on mutiple factors, amongst them; Faith CERTAINLY being One of THINGSwe MUSt have 'Do.We MUST :take up our crosses daily and follow the example of Jesus. If, If we are to attain Salvation

**Luke.14: 7 **

"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

Another MUST DO: Matt.19: 17 “"And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. **If you would **enter life, keep the commandments.”

Lutheranism does not deny any of this.

And **John 3:5 **

adds another MUST: Christian Baptism [Which I think you’ll agree is necessary?]
Of course, and this includes infants.

continued

 

[JonNC]

AGAPE Bible Study of Genesis

Question: How did St. James define Noah’s kind of faith? See James 2:14-26.

Answer: St. James expressed this kind of faith as living, active faith. He wrote that this is the kind of faith that brings salvation: You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified. …]. As a body without a spirit is dead, so is faith without deeds (Jm 2:24, 26). If Noah had only believed the flood was coming but had failed to be obedient to God’s commands to build and make provisions for the Ark, he and his family would have been lost: In the same way faith: if good deeds do not go with it, it is quite dead (Jm 2:17).

No argument.

Romans 2: 13 -16 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, **but the doers of the law who will be justified." **

**Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

**Rom.2: 13 **“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

James 2:14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,*** For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.***

Lutherans do not object to any of this, and in fact, we believe our understanding of justification and sanctification reflect it.

Jon, the issue here is that Faith alone would serve ONLY the person in posseson of it. That my friend is not what Christ has in mind.John.13: 34" A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." And this is precisely what james picks up on.

Do you see how Luther’s commentary clearly addresses this?

**Paul tells is in Cor. ** **1 Cor. 12 5: 11 ** “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. **To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” **

Agreed.

If we are to be Faithful, not just ***“faith-filled”; ***Good actions, [works], Charity, love of everyone as we love ourselves, is in an absolute sense; a MANDATE from Jesus. Faith is just the starting point: what we do with our faith, is what we will be judged on. WHY?

So, we agree on the importance of sanctification, and on what the importance of works is: to help the least of God’s children, as He has called us to do.

Faith is a Spiritual “Thing” and can and does come ONLY from God. We can’t take ANY credit for having it; BUT we do get “credit /merit” from God for LIVING IT. That my friend is why the CC is a Sacramental Church, with Our-Faith based on Good Works. That is where and how we find the courage to perform, as God both Expects and Demands, our Works of charity. The Graces granted to us By Christ who Himself Instituted the 7 Sacraments for this very purpose, are what has permitted the CC to lead the Faith communities for some 2,000 years.

And we agree, though we credit the Holy Spirit. IOW, the good works that I do are His good works. Do I cooperate? Yes, this is my free will. Could I cooperate without the strength we receive through the means of Grace? Not hardly.

Faith is an ESSENTIAL part of what is needed for one’s Personal salvation; but Faith alone will simply NOT get anyone to heaven. Because God has so Mandated; that Just as he Proved His love fo us; we too MUST prove our Love for Him; which IS T BE ACCOMPLISHED by love of neighbor.

He certainly did.

God Bless my friend, hope you found this helpful?

God bless you, as well, Pat, and I did find it helpful. I hope you found my responses enlightening.

Jon

 

[catholictiger]

Catholics literally say “works”, but when you think about it, the things that are truely considered good works are just ways of living a Christian lifestyle. Doing good for others without expecting anything in return. Donating your time or finances to someone or some cause that truely needs it, and not expecting to be praised for it. My Baptist friends have a hard time accepting that they actually do “good works” too.

yeah just as the pope says well what Paul really says faith works through LOVE. Also love is top priority with Paul.

but when you read paul i don’t think Paul is out to condemn works I may be misreading Christians but I think some people thing that. I know a stereotype of Catholics is that we believe we are justified by our works so we have it all wrong or something. I think they are completely off.

I think Paul was writing to people who took the law more seriously then love of Christ and their Faith. They were so satisfied by just doing works of the law. So Paul wanted to show people the difference between faith and works and I think when he said you are not justified by works I think he meant you aren’t justified by works that have no faith, but not that works are bad and people who put a high importance on works is necessarily bad. Paul wanted people to remember that there is faith ontop of works or the other way around.

I think the truest sign of someones faith is the works of charity they do the works of prayer they do and so on and so forth. Because really God calls us all to be constantly doing work for the poor and helping the poor, he just doesn’t want us to get to rapped up in it that we forget about him. But someone who is doing good works and doing them without question and not for fame not for glory but for the sake of the other person is someone who has true faith, and even though it may look like they think they are justified through their works they are not they are justified through their faith that works through love.

The two words of Faith and Love are really so difference in their complexity. Love has so many things that go with it. Everything we should do in our life should be out of Love, all that Christ did for us on the cross and leading up to that was out of Love. Faith even though a powerful word really doesn’t have many applications like love does, it just simply means you have a believe in something that you can’t see. So to say we are just justified by Faith and nothing else is kinda a crazy claim for know how little of applications you can have for it. I think we will be measured on how we loved God, and his people on our judgement day not how much we believed in him or how strong our faith is, but how strong our love is for him. Just look at Mother Teresa I don’t think she had much faith in her life at the end of her life, it was enough to keep her going. But the fact that she loved God and God’s people of Kulcuta was what is inspiring about her the most.

so we are saved through Love of God, yes that involves faith, but If you don’t love the Lord your God will all your heart and all your strength and all your might I don’t think you will get saved.

Love is the greatest of all things. Paul said this himself well greatest of faith hope and love.

 

[guanophore]

It helps to understand faith does not equal belief.

As James said, faith implies a response (a work) as Paul said in Eph 2 8-10.

This is an excellent and most important point, Doki. Even the demons believe, and shudder.

Saving faith is faith that works - responds to the belief.