Faith alone and the rich man

[Seamus_Sully]

There are at least three things involved in being saved:
Love and faith and hope.

 

[Atemi]

Because the he was unable to remove the idol of riches and be willing to give up everthing to put Jesus first.

Then he said to them all: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.”

This is exactly right, kaycee.

Christ led him through the Law only to find out that the rich man never even kept the first commandment, nevermind all of them as he said.

Anyone who uses this exchange in the Gospels as proof that works and Law-following are salvic, then they missed our Lord’s entire point.

The lesson that rich man was to learn is the same lesson we are all to learn.

As Scripture is clear, to break just one Law is to break ALL of them. That is God’s POV. Christ’s point was to show this man that he was a Law-breaker, just like everyone else.

The rich ruler could not accept that what he was doing already was not salvic and could not accept that anything but DOING good works would save him.

…

 

[Atemi]

So it is not enough to believe.

This is disconcerting, Mike, because it almost does not sound like you know what FAITH is. It’s like you equate it so some sort of shallow mental consent.

Believe what?

That is the question.

The rich young ruler did NOT believe. That is the whole point and Christ showed it to us.

…

 

[elvisman]

This is exactly right, kaycee.

Christ led him through the Law only to find out that the rich man never even kept the first commandment, nevermind all of them as he said.

Anyone who uses this exchange in the Gospels as proof that works and Law-following are salvic, then they missed our Lord’s entire point.

The lesson that rich man was to learn is the same lesson we are all to learn.

As Scripture is clear, to break just one Law is to break ALL of them. That is God’s POV. Christ’s point was to show this man that he was a Law-breaker, just like everyone else.

The rich ruler could not accept that what he was doing already was not salvic and could not accept that anything but DOING good works would save him.

…

WRONG!
What does Paul say in 1 Cor. 13:1-3??

**"If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. **And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing."

He then goes on to explain what love IS and is NOT. Love is a WORK - NOT just an emotion
Faith and OBEDIENCE to that faith ARE necessary - (Rom. 1:5, 16:14, 16:22).

---

 

[promethius95945]

Sorry - but kaycee is right. The CC does mix justification and sanctification which is taught nowhere in scripture. THIS IS WHAT IS TAUGHT AND DOCUMENTED AND IT IS YOU WHO ARE WOEFULLY MISINFORMED. We are condemned by the CC for making them separate…sanctification flows out and from justification.

Does your faith change the way you behave?? Does it cause different decisions to take place in your life?? If you BELEIVED that you were going to die today, would you act differently? THAT is the message of James 2. Is your faith living or dead? FAITH PRODUCES WORKS…WE ARE JUSTIFIED ON THE BASIS OF FAITH THAT WORKS NOT FAITH AND WORKS. And that is the clear message of James 2. Stop twisting it!

you obviously didn’t read my first post, and I’ll thank you to stop instructing me in catholic beliefs. The condemnation of the Church towards sola fida is based on the misconception that the end of the line is faith… it is not. Your second paragraph details quite accurately the Catholic understanding of how Christian works relate to faith. So YOU stop twisting the teachings of the church towards your slanders against her.

 

[Randy_Carson]

John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

So, believing is a work?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Because the he was unable to remove the idol of riches and be willing to give up everthing to put Jesus first.

Then he said to them all: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.”

Sounds like selling one’s possessions and losing one’s life are works that one must DO.

 

[VociMike]

By putting Jesus first to the exclusion of all else. Jesus is both Lord and Savior. We become His Child when we fully believe in Him as Savior. We also believe He is Lord! All actions result from belief or Faith.

“Putting Jesus first” - that’s an action. That’s a work. That’s a condition added to faith. If that’s faith alone then faith alone is not alone. Why call it faith alone when it requires actions? Why call a thing what it is not? Why deceive yourselves and others?

 

[VociMike]

There must be a proper response to the hearing of the law to get the seed of the word of the gospel to penetrate for salvation. And it is all the working of God in the heart.

So faith alone requires a proper response on the part of the believer. Faith alone is actually faith plus response. Fine, so why not just say so? Why call a thing that which it is not?

 

[VociMike]

This is disconcerting, Mike, because it almost does not sound like you know what FAITH is. It’s like you equate it so some sort of shallow mental consent.

Believe what?

That is the question.

The rich young ruler did NOT believe. That is the whole point and Christ showed it to us.

…

What I don’t know is what Protestant faith alone that isn’t alone is, or why you persist in calling a thing that which it is not.

Christ said in general that it is extremely difficult for the rich to enter heaven. Not just the man in the story, but in general. Why is it so difficult for the rich in general to have faith alone and thus gain the kingdom of God? Nobody in this thread has yet answered that question.

 

[OneForTruth]

you obviously didn’t read my first post, and I’ll thank you to stop instructing me in catholic beliefs. The condemnation of the Church towards sola fida is based on the misconception that the end of the line is faith… it is not. Your second paragraph details quite accurately the Catholic understanding of how Christian works relate to faith. So YOU stop twisting the teachings of the church towards your slanders against her.

Thanks.

 

[Atemi]

What I don’t know is what Protestant faith alone that isn’t alone is, or why you persist in calling a thing that which it is not.

Christ said in general that it is extremely difficult for the rich to enter heaven. Not just the man in the story, but in general. Why is it so difficult for the rich in general to have faith alone and thus gain the kingdom of God? Nobody in this thread has yet answered that question.

Yes they have, Mike.

Maybe you just don’t like it, I don’t know.

Christ pointed us to why.

The first commandment: you shall have no other gods before Me.

Christ brought the rich man back to that command, and yet we find he did not even keep that one.

He did not believe. If he had believed, he would have obeyed God (Jesus).

The rich have the propensity to think themselves self-sufficient and self-made. They tend to think themselves secure with their riches.

Christ brought the young ruler back to Deuteronomy 8:

"Observe the commands of the Lord your God, walking in his ways and revering him. For the Lord your God is bringing you into a good land—a land with streams and pools of water, with springs flowing in the valleys and hills; a land with wheat and barley, vines and fig trees, pomegranates, olive oil and honey; a land where bread will not be scarce and you will lack nothing; a land where the rocks are iron and you can dig copper out of the hills.

When you have eaten and are satisfied, praise the Lord your God for the good land he has given you. Be careful that you do not forget the Lord your God, failing to observe his commands, his laws and his decrees that I am giving you this day. Otherwise, when you eat and are satisfied, when you build fine houses and settle down, and when your herds and flocks grow large and your silver and gold increase and all you have is multiplied, then your heart will become proud and you will forget the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. He led you through the vast and dreadful desert, that thirsty and waterless land, with its venomous snakes and scorpions. He brought you water out of hard rock. He gave you manna to eat in the desert, something your fathers had never known, to humble and to test you so that in the end it might go well with you. You may say to yourself, “My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me.” But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

If you ever forget the Lord your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed."

As we know, idolatry goes way beyond bowing before carved statues.

It is the Law that is to lead us to Christ, not by keeping it to be saved.

By the way, it is impossible for any people, whether rich or poor, to be saved of themselves…but with God it is possible.

Christ was not pointing out something that only pertains to the rich.

…

 

[Pax]

Atemi,

Your post is well taken, but it in no way establishes salvation by faith alone. Clearly, a person (rich or poor) could believe in the one true God. They could understand that Jesus is the son of God and died for our salvation. They could accept the Trinity. Such a person could have all of the elements of faith and have no idolatry. They could simply fail to love God. Anyone that knows the truth and believes, but has no that no love the Lord can be saved. This is clearly established in scripture by the following:

We are told in 1Cor 8:3 that “…anyone that loves God is known by him.” If you are not known by God then you are not saved. This is given even greater emphasis in 1 Cor 16:22 where Paul tells us, “Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord.” In James 1:12 we are told that “…the crown of life is promised to those who love him [the Lord].” This same statement is repeated in James 2:5.

And the apostle, John, defines for us what love of God is when he says in 1Jn 5:3 “For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.” And Jesus, Himself, says in John 15:10 that “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” Obviously, if we do not abide in God’s love we are not saved.

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, "I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." Likewise, Paul tells us the importance of love when he says, “So faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love”(1 Corinthians 13:13). Paul also says in Corinthians 13:1-13 that “IF I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing….Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. …So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

 

[Atemi]

Atemi,

Your post is well taken, but it in no way establishes salvation by faith alone.

Nor was it meant to.

 

[promethius95945]

Thanks.

You’re welcome.