Faith Alone disrupted in 3 easy steps!

[Catholic_Dude]

Scroll back and read #13, It deals directly with your first point. The Text of Romans 4:3 in context.

No it doesnt, your still dancing around directly addressing the 3 verses I put forward at the very start.

You concluded #13 with the understanding that grace is required to do any good work, Catholics agree with that so your “details” are undisputed.

 

[Linkowski]

I would first like to point out, that just because there are different points of time in the life of Abraham that we see his faith being illustrated does not mean that he was justified at each of those points in his lifetime (Romans 4, Galatians 3, and James 2). We are simply being taught over and over that Abraham’s faith was the means of his justification…it was also the root of his works…he believed God…therefore, he acted.

I would also like to point out that justification, as important as a doctrine this is, was not shown as a process in the Old Testament with respect to Abraham…the only mention is in Genesis 15:6…when it says - Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness…it makes this statement nowhere else in the life of Abraham.

In the book of Romans, justification is clearly a declaration of one to be legally righteous…it is contrasted and used together with condemnation which is not a process. These are one-time declarations. Hence we have “justified” in the past tense…

Romans 5:1 NAS95 1 Therefore, **having been **justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9 NAS95 9 Much more then, **having now been justified **by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Romans 6:7 NAS95 7 for he who **has died **is freed from sin.

1 Corinthians 6:11 NAS95 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you **were justified **in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

We are dead to the law…it no longer has jurisdiction over us…

Romans 7:1-6 NAS95 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The law has no more jurisdiction over the elect because they are in Christ…sin is not imputed to us…we are no longer “in our sins” (ref.1Cor 15:17). We have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous (1John 2:1). We have eternal life (James 5:24)

Romans 8:1 NAS95 1 Therefore there is now **no condemnation **for those who are in Christ Jesus.

WHY - because we are justified!

Please notice also the terms used in Romans to show that this is speaking of a legal declaration…

Charge - (Rom 8:33), condemned (Rom 8:34), jurisdiction (Rom 7:1), Guilty (Rom 3:19), justified (many places), law (many places), imputation…etc.

This is the context of Romans…

Once justified by faith and now haveing the Holy Spirit among many other claims that blood-washed, born again believers may propound…Now we are changed - God changes us just like he brought the dead to life…gave sight to the blind, gave hearing to the deaf…etc…only from a spirtual standpoint.

2 Corinthians 5:17 NAS95 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

(cont’d)

 

[Linkowski]

(cont’d)

The process of Sanctification where one is made holy and conformed to the image of Christ then begins by the Word and by the Spirit of God.

I believe that the Catholic Church seeks to make justification a process because they believe that you can become unsaved. Well…the elect WILL be saved…they will be glorified…

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

And it is only the elect that will have salvation. There are no justified non-elect. These three groups are not apparent in scripture…only two - the ones on whom He has mercy and the ones whom He passes over and are subsequently hardened. Once the elect are justified - they will be glorified - they will be saved. And the elect cannot and will not fall away.

You are using a very small portion of James 2 to defend your point whereas I have a very large portion to defend my point in this case…

James 2:14-24 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone **says he has faith **but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Can this **KIND of faith **save him???

15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Again…we are saved by living faith - faith that works…NOT FAITH AND WORKS

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; ***show me your faith ***without the works, and I will ***show you my faith ***by my works.”

We are speaking here only of the exhibition of faith - the characteristics of the faith…and so it continues…

***19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. ***

What ***KIND ***of faith is this - about as good as demonic faith!

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

It produces the godly fruit for which it was designed (Eph. 2:10). Just as a fruit tree has not fulfilled its goal until it bears fruit, so also faith has not reached its end until it demonstrates itself in a righteous life. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works.

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Of course…in this sense…you are not justified by faith alone. Faith that is alone is DEAD faith…this is the sense in which he is driving at.The whole passage is about the nature of the faith and this is quite apparent. This word justified is also not being used in the same sense as is in Romans…and clearly is being shown in the sense that is indicated in the bold print below…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

What do we see over and over - show me…a man may say…James was against those empty tares in the Church who evidenced that they were not of the fold.

 

[Linkowski]

Unfortunately, you who seek to be justified by the law make faith of no effect. They are at opposite sides of the spectrum…

Galatians 5:3 NAS95 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

If you make any part of the law a means of salvation, you are a debtor to do the whole law.

By the way…Paul’s preaching of justification by faith alone is supported by the following scriptures…

Romans 6:1 NAS95 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Romans 6:15 NAS95 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Is not this the same question that rings from you? You ask it because you see the point that I am trying to make; that we are under grace and cannot be charged with sin. You say, no way!!! That cannot possibly be…well, Paul qualifies this truth that we cannot be charged with sin by the very statements in Romans 6 that I have just showed you.

1 John 2:1 NAS95 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

 

[mikeledes]

So, Linkowski, if Abraham was only justified in Genesis 15, than why is he described as having saving faith in Genesis 12 (Hebrews 11)? If we are justified by grace through faith, why wasn’t he justified in Genesis 12?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[cleargospel99]

No it doesnt, your still dancing around directly addressing the 3 verses I put forward at the very start.

You concluded #13 with the understanding that grace is required to do any good work, Catholics agree with that so your “details” are undisputed.

Maybe I misunderstand your point.

As I read Romans 4 (post #13), it seems clear (v. 9-11) that **Abraham was justified prior to any act of obedience on his part. **The works that he performed, circumcision and the sacrafice of Issacc were subsequent to his election. As such his election by grace resulted in justification by the gift of faith, and was not conditional on any works performed prior to his justification or upon any subsequent works performed afterward.

What did Paul mean in Romans 4:5 “However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”

 

[Linkowski]

So, Linkowski, if Abraham was only justified in Genesis 15, than why is he described as having saving faith in Genesis 12 (Hebrews 11)? If we are justified by grace through faith, why wasn’t he justified in Genesis 12?

God Bless,
Michael

I said that there is only one location in Genesis where it made the statement that he received righteousness.

You must also look at the other evidence for justification being an event in the past of the life of a believer. You are focusing only on this speculation being made from different testimonials in the NT which say that he had faith which was the basis for his righteousness…the work that he did was based on his believe in God and His promises.

 

[HailMary]

Psalm 62:12

For you render to each one according to his works.

Jeremiah 17:10

I the Lord … give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ezekiel 18:27

When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness … and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.

Matthew 5:20

Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 12:37

By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.

Matthew 16:27

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 19:17

If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 25:41-46

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luke 10:26-28

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

John 5:29

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6, 13

Who will render to each one according to his deeds. … For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 11:15

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

James 2:14

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Link, come’on you’re Protestant, you def. use the KJV right?
KJV:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Same deal, at least acknowledge that the bible you use is not the only one out there.

James 2:17

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:21-25

Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Peter 1:17

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work.

Revelation 2:23

I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Romans 13:11:

And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to awake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed

Wait, this is curious Link, this is St. Paul talking and he’s saying that his salvation is CLOSER than when he FIRST believed…isn’t that curious? …“the ongoing conversion” is how we put it.

 

[Linkowski]

Why do you insist on separating works from faith?? I spoke only of justification…what you are speaking of is sanctification which is a process where one is made holy. Works are a fruit of faith and will be the evidence of the faith of the believer. You are misunderstanding. Please read my posting more thoroughly and respond carefully. They are on the previous page.

 

[HailMary]

Why do you insist on separating works from faith??

It may appear that way since all the quotes had to do with works, but as others have pointed out, faith and works are not mutually exclusive: I only quoted those to stress the important of works also. They are organically related.

Although I can see how of these have have to do with Sanctification, the majority of these have to do with the relationship between Salvation (Justification) and works.

If you pin your Salvation to one point in time (I was saved 3:30 am Jan. 15, 1980 when I accepted Jesus as my personal savior), I can see why someone would delineate between Salvation and Justification. But I fail to see a difference since that isn’t how Salvation is achieved.

 

[cleargospel99]

If you pin your Salvation to one point in time (I was saved 3:30 am Jan. 15, 1980 when I accepted Jesus as my personal savior), I can see why someone would delineate between Salvation and Justification. But I fail to see a difference since that isn’t how Salvation is achieved.

Would you be so kind as to explain in your view how salvation is “achieved”?

your servant,
cg99

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I would first like to point out, that just because there are different points of time in the life of Abraham that we see his faith being illustrated does not mean that he was justified at each of those points in his lifetime (Romans 4, Galatians 3, and James 2). We are simply being taught over and over that Abraham’s faith was the means of his justification…it was also the root of his works…he believed God…therefore, he acted.

HERE is the catch though…The Protestant believes the FIRST act of faith is the one and only moment of Justification. THUS if you point to a place like Rom 4 to claim THAT was when Abraham was justified means you cant explain what was going on all those years earlier when he obeyed God (Gen 12).

I would also like to point out that justification, as important as a doctrine this is, was not shown as a process in the Old Testament with respect to Abraham…the only mention is in Genesis 15:6…when it says - Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness…it makes this statement nowhere else in the life of Abraham.

That is because it was an important act of faith. That doesn mean it was the only or even first. The Bible is clear being considered righteous for a righteous act is a very real thing and not through faith only (eg Psalm 106:30-31).

In the book of Romans, justification is clearly a declaration of one to be legally righteous…it is contrasted and used together with condemnation which is not a process. These are one-time declarations. Hence we have “justified” in the past tense…

No, thats your assumption and is infact wrong. That is why you cant explain passages like Heb 11:8.
If your brave enough go ahead and read this article:
personal.psu.edu/bmd175/logizomai.htm
I guarantee it will change your life if you just read it.

1 Corinthians 6:11 NAS95 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Its interesting you quote this verse considering it says that justification is a result of “washing” (ie Baptism) which, as the verse says clearly causes you to be sanctified, and as a result justified. Protestantism cant answer this verse because it says “sanctified” after “washed” yet before “justified”

… …
… …

WHY - because we are justified!

You can list off all the verses you want but you cant answer what I made clear in the OP.

As for the rest of your posts, you still havnt addressed Heb 11:8.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

So, Linkowski, if Abraham was only justified in Genesis 15, than why is he described as having saving faith in Genesis 12 (Hebrews 11)? If we are justified by grace through faith, why wasn’t he justified in Genesis 12?

God Bless,
Michael

Bingo!

Maybe I misunderstand your point.

As I read Romans 4 (post #13), it seems clear (v. 9-11) that **Abraham was justified prior to any act of obedience on his part. **The works that he performed, circumcision and the sacrafice of Issacc were subsequent to his election. As such his election by grace resulted in justification by the gift of faith, and was not conditional on any works performed prior to his justification or upon any subsequent works performed afterward.

What did Paul mean in Romans 4:5 “However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”

You still cant explain Heb 11:8 which shows Abraham had FAITH long before Gen 15…yet you insist it was at Rom 4 when the one and only justification took place.

I said that there is only one location in Genesis where it made the statement that he received righteousness.

You must also look at the other evidence for justification being an event in the past of the life of a believer. You are focusing only on this speculation being made from different testimonials in the NT which say that he had faith which was the basis for his righteousness…the work that he did was based on his believe in God and His promises.

The trap you just fell into now is that nobody except Abraham and Phineas (Psalm 106:30-31) were ever mentioned about being righteous and thus nobody else could have been justified. In other words, your arguing if the exact words dont appear then the person was surely not justified, yet nobody would agree with that.

 

[Fred_4]

Wow! Interesting discussion by all involved. I think that perhaps the title given this thread may be a bit misleading, as I’m not sure there are really three easy steps, although I understand what the author was saying. But it’s not “easy” as both the Protestant and the Catholic position are correct… according to the Bible alone.

What I mean is, the Church’s position on salvation and faith alone is not based solely from the sacred scriptures (should that be capitalized?.. sorry) but also from the sacred apostolic teachings we call tradition. And I think that’s a key difference.

This thread illustrates that very compelling arguments can be made for, just about, any position using only the text of what we call the Bible. I thank God for the gift of the magisterial teaching of the Church which properly interprets the written scriptures.

I apologize ahead of time if this post is too sophomoric for this discussion.

 

[sydney211]

Would you be so kind as to explain in your view how salvation is “achieved”?

I would like to “second” that question. I am a new member and joined this forum so I could discuss some questions I have about my Catholic faith. I am a Catholic by birth and had pretty much been “going through all the motions” all along to please my parents, even as an adult. A few years ago I began to really look at my faith. Growing up I was taught that we were separated from God my the sin of Adam and Eve, which “closed the doors to heaven”. When Jesus came, he suffered and died to “open the doors to heaven”, so that those of us who were baptized would then have the opportunity to go to heaven, so long as we did not die with unconfessed mortal sin on our souls. The problem is, my motivation for doing all the “good Catholic” things had always been fear of going to hell rather than love for God. In fact, God had always felt more like a “gatekeeper” or even a “scorekeeper” to me than a loving Father. And yet as I read the bible I kept finding passages reminding us to love God with all our hearts. I noticed that like me, the Pharisees and the church at Ephesus (in Revelation) were DOING the right things, but Jesus was not happy with them because their MOTIVATION was wrong. I prayed and asked God to help me “find the love”. I began listening to a Christian radio station and heard about salvation being a GIFT–that is, something that is UNMERITED. Jesus was willing to stand in the gap for me–why?? Not because of anything I’d done. It was out of shear love for me. All I had to do was acknowledge the gift and it was mine. Suddenly, I WANTED to pray, and go to church, and conform my life to his, because I was so thankful for this gift!
And yet you will tell me that this is incorrect. What am I missing?
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut,
Sydney

 

[cleargospel99]

Bingo!

You still cant explain Heb 11:8 which shows Abraham had FAITH long before Gen 15…yet you insist it was at Rom 4 when the one and only justification took place.

Well I haven’t got to Heb 11:8 yet. Lets take these three easy steps one step at a time.

Starting with step one, what exactly is your point? I don’t see how Romans 4:3 taken out of context invalidates the rest of the chapter 4 which seems to clearly teach the justification is by faith, not of works.

Please excuse my ignorance but I am really trying to understand what you mean, when you say “yet you insist it was at Rom 4 when the one and only justification took place.”

So far as I understand it Abraham, was justified by Christ’s atoning death at the cross, like all believers predestined as part of God’s plan of salvation.

 

[Bishopite]

I said that there is only one location in Genesis where it made the statement that he received righteousness.

You must also look at the other evidence for justification being an event in the past of the life of a believer. You are focusing only on this speculation being made from different testimonials in the NT which say that he had faith which was the basis for his righteousness…the work that he did was based on his believe in God and His promises.

And you are falsely making the assumption that justification is a past event only, yet Abraham is a clear Scriptural example of justification being a process of the past, present and future if we are obedience to God till death.
If Abraham wasn’t justified until Genesis 15:6 then what kind of faith did he have in Genesis 12:1-4??

CatholicDude summed it up in the first post:

If your a Catholic who gets bogged down when Protestants bring up Romans 4 to “prove” that Abraham was saved by faith alone, dont be worried…simply remember these three verses:

Hebrews 11:8 (quoting Genesis 12)
Romans 4:3 (quoting Genesis 15)
James 2:21-24 (quoting Gen 22)

These verses show that Abraham had saving faith long before the event in Romans 4, from this we see Protestantism cannot be right in claiming Abraham was justified once and for all by a single act of faith in Romans 4 (Gen 15:6). On top of that we see Abraham being justified later in his life as James 2:22 teaches. The reason this can happen is because you can increase in justification/righteousness as you continue to obey God, which proves the Catholic understanding of salvation. This is summarized in Galatians 5:6 as “faith working through love,”

 

[HailMary]

Would you be so kind as to explain in your view how salvation is “achieved”?

your servant,
cg99

This is the most common question and there are LOTS of literature that go over this.

newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm

catholic.com/library/salvation.asp

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

To sum it up quickly, you need to love God with all your heart, follow his commandments and obey his Church, for it is the Pillar and the Foundation of Truth. (1 Timothy 3:15).

Here is something I wrote:
members.cox.net/humurabi/AreYouSaved.pdf

also the “Case for Catholicism” paper touches on this subject.

Its never achieved, fully, since it is three-dimensional, until Christ himself, at your personal judgment, grants you entrance into His Kingdom.

 

[cleargospel99]

And you are falsely making the assumption that justification is a past event only, yet Abraham is a clear Scriptural example of justification being a process of the past, present and future if we are obedience to God till death.
If Abraham wasn’t justified until Genesis 15:6 then what kind of faith did he have in Genesis 12:1-4??

CatholicDude summed it up in the first post:

Are you saying that Abraham was justified and then he wasn’t and then he was, and then he wasn’t and then he was…etc?

According to the scripture, justification happened one time, at the Cross, once and for all time for all of the elect of God.

 

[cleargospel99]

This is the most common question and there are LOTS of literature that go over this.

…

To sum it up quickly, you need to love God with all your heart, follow his commandments and obey his Church, for it is the Pillar and the Foundation of Truth. (1 Timothy 3:15).

…

Its never achieved, fully, since it is three-dimensional, until Christ himself, at your personal judgment, grants you entrance into His Kingdom.

Not to oversimplify, but based on reading your article are you saved and the other links would this summary description work for you?

"It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will."

I just want to be sure this a fair description of what you are trying to say? It is God’s work, but it is ultimately man who determines his own ultimate destiny. Is that consistent with what you are saying?