Faith Alone disrupted in 3 easy steps!

[guanophore]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

I find these kinds of arguments generate more division in the body than the answer could possibly be worth. Let’s look at this argument where the rubber meets the road.

We are all saying you have to have faith. And no one is arguing that a Christian should avoid good works. We are only arguing about whether the word “salvation” can be applied to what we do. It seems to me that another message from the Bible could be applied here.

2 Timothy 2:14 - Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

We are all basically saying “have faith in God through Jesus Christ and conform yourself to His image through communicating with Him and obeying His commandments.”

Why does it matter what we call it?

I agree with you, and I don’ t think it matters what it may be called. But, that is not what the OP was positing. The issue here is; what is the nature of the event(s) process by which someone becomes reconciled to God, and enters eternal life?

The faith alone approach separates justification as an event from the process of sanctification, which the faith through love approach does not. Faith alone is a protestant invention, and makes it easy for people to be led astray from the teachings of Jesus. For example:

The doctrines of salvation are not found in, or built upon, parables - not even Christ’s. They’re found in the post-cross teachings of the Epistles. The parables Christ presented to the Jews, prior to His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection, did not necessarily take His atoning work on the cross into consideration. His parables taught, in a limited way, a specific lesson by example, but they are not salvation doctrines based on and rooted in His atoning work on the cross. For these you must go to the Epistles.

Here one can see that using the “faith alone” approach, the entire gospels and teachings of Christ about salvation have been classified as limited, and insufficient to teach one how to be saved.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Here one can see that using the “faith alone” approach, the entire gospels and teachings of Christ about salvation have been classified as limited, and insufficient to teach one how to be saved.

If I were to be so bold to paraphrase this?

What **apophasis **was saying in layman’s terms between the lines?

Jesus did an imperfect(pee pee poor) job of teaching about salvation?

Paul succeeded where Jesus failed?

Yep Paul is more important then Jesus?

etc, etc, etc.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where does scripture state that Abraham was justified?

“By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.” (Hebrews 11:8-9)

How are we justified? By faith alone?

Well then, according to your soteriology, Abe was justified in Gen 12.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Exegesis of Gen 12, please.

From the Protestant New International Version Bible, here is Genesis 12: 1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 “I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”
4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.
6 Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7 **The LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring **[NIV footnote “offspring” = “seed”] I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.
8 From there he went on toward the hills east of Bethel and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he built an altar to the LORD and called on the name of the LORD.
By the same faith as people like Noah (By his faith Noah condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. - Heb 11:7), Abraham “[by faith] when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went…he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. [ie Heaven]-Heb 11:8,10” This is what occurred in Gen 12:1-4. The Lord was clearly pleased (eg v7). Abraham in these years also built TWO altars and called upon God (v7-8). Paul makes reference to this event in Gal 3:8 “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”” Paul sees this as a justification moment where God “announced the Gospel in advance to Abraham” and it quotes the promise of Genesis 12:3. Further in Gal 3:16 Paul says “The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but "and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.” This passage is quoting Genesis 12:7 where God first made the promise of Abraham’s “seed” which was a “Gospel in advance” reference to Christ (and Abraham responded with an altar).

This is a clear and unbiased exegesis of Genesis 12. Your turn now.

It is clear Abraham had solid faith in God, pleased God, was given many promises and was logically justified at this point.

Catholic Dude:

You should review Post 105

. … you never responded to itNow what a waste of time that would be! I can’t believe what I am seeing in this thread.To him-haw all around fuzzy speculations over some illustrations of Abraham’s faith when the teaching of justification is crystal clear in black and white in the book of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and peppered elsewhere through the scriptures. After all of the scripture that has been brought to the table to give clear evidence of the fact that justification is a past event in the life of a Christian, you continue down this path that you cannot let go of…because it is all the speculation that you have to hold onto.

Jimmy Akin …fluff…]

So, I leave you to strive about in distpute over fuzzy, foggy speculation …fluff…]

…fluff…]

I could give you answer after answer after answer and you will not…and I repeat…will not care. It is a shame but it is the truth.

Oh Please, you didnt address a single thing I posted in direct response to you in Post 105, you openly brushed it off right here. For some reason, protestants think if they brush off Catholic work the Catholic will let it be and either retreat to give up. You made an ASTOUNDING claim in post 105, for those who forgot here is what you said:**Abraham ****had no object of his faith or promise at all until Genesis 15:6
**Is THAT so?..Post 105 shows that to be totally false (Gen 12:1-4, Gen 13:14-18, etc.).

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

Psalm 106:30-31 (KJV)

30Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
31And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

Psalm 106:30-31(NASB)

30Then Phinehas stood up and interposed,
And so the plague was stayed.
31And it was reckoned to him for righteousness,
To all generations forever.

Deuteronomy 24:13
13In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the LORD thy God.

None of those verses answers the question, “how does a man get right with God.” Neither are they used by any writer in scripture as an example of that, nor to explain that.

The acts in those verses occur after the giving of circumcision as a covenant sign, and after the giving of the law, by which law, Paul tells us, no flesh will be justified in God’s sight.

That is the reason Paul uses the declaration of righteousness made of Abraham, in Gen 15: to explain how a man gets right with God—by faith, alone—as Abraham was declared righteous before circumcision (Rom 4:9ff), and before the law—both ceremonial, and moral
(cf Rom 4:13-16).

Looking at the title of the thread, I believe its been shown that Abraham was justified by faith alone, and that you have not, in fact, you cannot disrupt that; as Moses says, “he believed in the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” That’s clearly stated for all to see, and he did this while uncircumcised, and before the giving of the law.

Faith alone (cf Rom 1:17 with Hab 2:4). :tiphat:

 

[sandusky]

JoeyWarren:

If I tend to show malice toward protestants, the malice is not without it’s merit. I’ve been told by numerous protestants including my own dad, that I will go to hell because I am Catholic.

That’s as good an excuse as any.

JoeyWarren:

Pay attention to my signature. I don’t have not one iota of doubt that when Ghandi spoke these words, he was referring to Protestants.

Must have been.

JoeyWarren:

Any maliciousness is a product of my environment. I grew up with and within redneck trailer park trash. One would have to walk my in my shoe to even come close to understanding.

I see; you’re a victim.

JoeyWarren:

So don’t take it too personal.

After what you’ve told me, how could I?

JoeyWarren:

Engineering Laboratory Technician(ELT) on USS Ohio SSBN 726 and USS Florida SSBN 728. 1980 to 1985

A very prestigious branch of Naval service.

 

[sandusky]

From the Protestant New International Version Bible, here is Genesis 12: 1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 “I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”
4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.
6 Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7 **The LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring **[NIV footnote “offspring” = “seed”] I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.
8 From there he went on toward the hills east of Bethel and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he built an altar to the LORD and called on the name of the LORD.
By the same faith as people like Noah (By his faith Noah condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. - Heb 11:7), Abraham “[by faith] when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went…he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. [ie Heaven]-Heb 11:8,10” This is what occurred in Gen 12:1-4. The Lord was clearly pleased (eg v7). Abraham in these years also built TWO altars and called upon God (v7-8). Paul makes reference to this event in Gal 3:8 “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”” Paul sees this as a justification moment where God “announced the Gospel in advance to Abraham” and it quotes the promise of Genesis 12:3. Further in Gal 3:16 Paul says “The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but "and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.” This passage is quoting Genesis 12:7 where God first made the promise of Abraham’s “seed” which was a “Gospel in advance” reference to Christ (and Abraham responded with an altar).

This is a clear and unbiased exegesis of Genesis 12. Your turn now.

It is clear Abraham had solid faith in God, pleased God, was given many promises and was logically justified at this point.

Oh Please, you didnt address a single thing I posted in direct response to you in Post 105, you openly brushed it off right here. For some reason, protestants think if they brush off Catholic work the Catholic will let it be and either retreat to give up. You made an ASTOUNDING claim in post 105, for those who forgot here is what you said:**Abraham ****had no object of his faith or promise at all until Genesis 15:6
**Is THAT so?..Post 105 shows that to be totally false (Gen 12:1-4, Gen 13:14-18, etc.).

You’re telling me what you suppose Heb 11 says about Gen 12.

I’ll make it simpler; tell me where, in Gen 12, is it said that Abraham was justified?

I’ll check back after the weekend, if you care to answer; but I won’t be posting any further;
at least, not on this thread.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You’re telling me what you suppose Heb 11 says about Gen 12.

I’ll make it simpler; tell me where, in Gen 12, is it said that Abraham was justified?

I’ll check back after the weekend, if you care to answer; but I won’t be posting any further;
at least, not on this thread.

Its official in my book, I guess Im a slow learner…but I have finally learned…nothing I say has any effect on people like you because you cant handle the truth and, even if you dont mean it, your theological “fail safe” defense mechanism (eg if all else fails toss out gen 15:6) wont allow you to see clearly on this issue.

Unlike Protestants, I and other Catholics cannot in good conscience brush off such evidence, then again I realize this evidence is so damming to faith alone theology that your probably in shock.

Funny you want me to point out where Gen 12 talks about justification…AS IF other Genesis chapters talked about justification…:whacky:…does Gen 15 mention justification?..didnt think so…(this is what Catholics have to deal with)…

As this point the evidence is clear your just screwing with our heads and taking us for a joy ride.

I dont mean to be mean but Faith Alone is founded upon doublethink, the evidence, for those who can see it, is very clear. This thread alone shows how hard it is to get a yes or no question answered, yet they demand answers themselves…and whats worse nothing satisfies them…

…I learned though…thats what matters, no sense in getting worked up.

 

[mikeledes]

The acts in those verses occur after the giving of circumcision as a covenant sign, and after the giving of the law, by which law, Paul tells us, no flesh will be justified in God’s sight.

Sandunsky, these acts were credited as righteousness before God, the same language used regarding the faith of Abraham and his justification. In other words, these verses use the language of justification. Your explanation did not address this.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

You’re telling me what you suppose Heb 11 says about Gen 12.

I’ll make it simpler; tell me where, in Gen 12, is it said that Abraham was justified?

I’ll check back after the weekend, if you care to answer; but I won’t be posting any further;
at least, not on this thread.

Hebrews 11 also says that Abel was justified by faith. Where does it say that by faith Abel was justified by faith in Genesis? Now can you answer this question. Faith justifies, right? Faith is a gift of God, right? Can a person receive the gift of faith and not be justified? Why won’t you answer this question?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Randy_Carson]

You’re telling me what you suppose Heb 11 says about Gen 12.

I’ll make it simpler; tell me where, in Gen 12, is it said that Abraham was justified?

I’ll check back after the weekend, if you care to answer; but I won’t be posting any further;
at least, not on this thread.

Sandy,

I already answered this exact issue in post #262.

We can deal with “faith alone” momentarily, but for the present, I think it was been conclusively illustrated that justification is a process and not an event.

Let’s take this one step at a time…

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[mikeledes]

Here are an interesting article and a debate on justification:

geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1649/Justification_by_Grace.html

mindspring.com/~jdarcy/files/justify.htm

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Bishopite]

I see; however, I am not able to find reference to Abraham’s justification in any of those verses; which one of those four, specifically, are you assuming states that?

I was just qualifying “Catholic” terms initial justification and progressive justification. I know you don’t agree with them no matter how they are phrased. According to scripture, Abraham was justified in Genesis 12:1-4 which Hebrews 11:8 clarifies for us in making refference. That was Abraham’s initial justification. His progressive justification (the process) is Genesis 15 and 22 where when tested, he obeyed God (by his works of obedience) continuing in his justification. Hebrews 11 obviously written many many years after Genesis affirms Abraham endured to the end of his life in faith and obedience even through trials and tribulations. This is not something Catholics are “assuming” but clear and scriptural truth.

 

[mikeledes]

You’re telling me what you suppose Heb 11 says about Gen 12.

I’ll make it simpler; tell me where, in Gen 12, is it said that Abraham was justified?

I’ll check back after the weekend, if you care to answer; but I won’t be posting any further;
at least, not on this thread.

Does not surprise me. When it becomes too challenging, you leave. You never answered whether a person can have the gift of faith and not be justified. I wonder why?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[elation37]

In looking at the original post, it would seem that another good response would be –

Yes, my friend - Faith Alone is enough - if the Faith is in Jesus Christ Alone. For you see, there are 3 types of Faith.

First, there is “Intellectual faith” which may or may not include having a lot of knowledge about Bible – this is important but it is NOT true Saving Faith.

Second, there is “temporal faith” which is calling out to God during times of trouble and times of joy – this is also important to do but it is NOT true Saving Faith.

So, what is true Saving Faith – it is turning from any religious deeds and trusting your whole being on the person of and finished work of Jesus Christ.

As to any concern about “religious deeds” – a person who has Saving Faith will do good works and these works will be done out of Thanksgiving for what God has done for you in and through Jesus Christ. The good works are NOT done to earn Salvation but rather an outward expression of a “changed heart” that will continue to grow in love for Jesus Christ and others.

So, my friend – tell me your testimony to your relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[kaycee]

In looking at the original post, it would seem that another good response would be –

Yes, my friend - Faith Alone is enough - if the Faith is in Jesus Christ Alone. For you see, there are 3 types of Faith.

First, there is “Intellectual faith” which may or may not include having a lot of knowledge about Bible – this is important but it is NOT true Saving Faith.

Second, there is “temporal faith” which is calling out to God during times of trouble and times of joy – this is also important to do but it is NOT true Saving Faith.

So, what is true Saving Faith – it is turning from any religious deeds and trusting your whole being on the person of and finished work of Jesus Christ.

As to any concern about “religious deeds” – a person who has Saving Faith will do good works and these works will be done out of Thanksgiving for what God has done for you in and through Jesus Christ. The good works are NOT done to earn Salvation but rather an outward expression of a “changed heart” that will continue to grow in love for Jesus Christ and others.

So, my friend – tell me your testimony to your relationship with Jesus Christ.

Soli De Gloria

 

[elation37]

Soli De Gloria = glory to God alone

 

[Randy_Carson]

So, what is true Saving Faith – it is turning from any religious deeds and trusting your whole being on the person of and finished work of Jesus Christ.

Here is the error…You have added trust to faith, so faith is no longer alone.

Catholic Definitions

Faith = intellectual assent to the revealed truths of God
Hope = trust in God
Charity = love for God and one another

Protestant Faith = Catholic Faith + Catholic Hope + Catholic Love

Catholics rightly object to the phrase “faith alone” because it is not biblical (cf. James 2:24) and is misleading.

I posted more extensively on this in a thread entitled “Bridging the Faith Alone Divide”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=144849

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[elation37]

Brief definition of faith – it means trust, commitment
Synonym of faith – belief

Does this explain?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Brief definition of faith – it means trust, commitment
Synonym of faith – belief

Does this explain?

When dialoguing with people of different faiths (belief systems - not “trust” systems), it is important to be very precise about the definitions of theological terms. Here are ours:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Faith: Both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God who invites his response, and freely assents to the whole truth that God has revealed. It is this revelation of God which the Church proposes for our belief, and which we profess in the Creed, celebrate in the sacraments, live by right conduct that fulfills the twofold commandment of charity (as specified in the commandments), and respond to in our prayer of faith. Faith is both a theological virtue given by God as grace, and an obligation which flows from the first commandment of God. (CCC Glossary)

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us…because he is truth itself. (CCC 1814)

Hope: The theological virtue by which we desire and expect from God both eternal life and the grace we need to attain it. (CCC Glossary)

Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1817)

Charity: The theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbors as ourselves for the love of God. (CCC 1822)

Justification: The gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22). Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. (CCC Glossary)

Hope this helps. :tiphat: