Faith Alone disrupted in 3 easy steps!

[elation37]

Semantics can be used to divide peoples of faith. Thus, definitions that are simply put in your own words are most expressive of a person’s state of mind and belief.

Agree?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Semantics can be used to divide peoples of faith. Thus, definitions that are simply put in your own words are most expressive of a person’s state of mind and belief.

Agree?

Not at all.

Words have meanings. Precise usage is critical to understanding.

James says that we are not saved by faith alone. You say we are.

I would say we need to check the definitions of “faith” as used by each person carefully before we draw swords, don’t you think?

 

[elation37]

So, you have studied IN DEPTH – the Greek language of James?
If so, great. If not, then take the time and you should be able to see that James is talking about.

Is James speaking of works that lead to Salvation or works of Righteousness that are an outpouring of Thanksgiving to God.

Just a simple answer is sufficient.
Thanks

 

[Randy_Carson]

So, you have studied IN DEPTH – the Greek language of James?

I wouldn’t go that far, but as a former Prostestant, I have been known to chase down a Greek word or two.

I have my Strong’s, my Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, my Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible, and my Dictionary of New Testament Theology Vols. 1-3 right here at my side. Plus a host of online resources. I think I am reasonably equiped - unless you feel there is a reference work I should add to the collection.

If so, great. If not, then take the time and you should be able to see that James is talking about.

Is James speaking of works that lead to Salvation or works of Righteousness that are an outpouring of Thanksgiving to God.

Just a simple answer is sufficient.
Thanks

In the context of this thread, I believe James is reacting to some misunderstandings of Paul’s writings that he was witnessing within the early Church. In James 2, he addresses this problem.

However, I’m not sure I understand the question. What do you mean by the phrase “works that lead to Salvation”?

I think you want to move in the direction of “faith that works” as opposed to “faith and works”, am I correct?

 

[elation37]

When I was a Store Manager with Family Christian Stores, I received a free copy of PC Study Bible version 4. I have found that for the $$ it is a great reference program.It has great Greek and Hebrew tools as well as many Bible versions, commentaries, topical and word search tools, interlinear Bible, media, bookmark features, and many books that can be downloaded for free from the main site. It would be a great research for you to have. With my laptop, I can open up to 12 resources at a time (only 256MB RAM) — with each resource tabbed for easy access.

You wrote:
I. In the context of this thread, I believe James is reacting to some misunderstandings of Paul’s writings that he was witnessing within the early Church. In James 2, he addresses this problem.

II. However, I’m not sure I understand the question. What do you mean by the phrase “works that lead to Salvation”?

III. I think you want to move in the direction of “faith that works” as opposed to “faith and works”, am I correct?

My response:
I. Yes
II. There are some in the “Christian” community that believe that a person’s “works” add to or complete their salvation. I believe that such teaching is nothing more than a doctrine of demons – all “religious” teaching apart from Christianity presents a works salvation.

Since Salvation is of God, and He is perfect – then nothing can "entice " Him to change His mind since those that are “In Christ” were chosen before the foundation of the earth. Thus, in everything God alone is to receive glory and honor and thanksgiving.

III. Faith that works = a life of faith that represents a viable witness for Jesus Christ which includes obedience to His teachings and the teachings of the Apostles.

 

[Randy_Carson]

When I was a Store Manager with Family Christian Stores, I received a free copy of PC Study Bible version 4. I have found that for the $$ it is a great reference program.It has great Greek and Hebrew tools as well as many Bible versions, commentaries, topical and word search tools, interlinear Bible, media, bookmark features, and many books that can be downloaded for free from the main site. It would be a great research for you to have. With my laptop, I can open up to 12 resources at a time (only 256MB RAM) — with each resource tabbed for easy access.

Interesting. I’ll check it out.

My response:
I. Yes

Woohoo! I got one right!

II. There are some in the “Christian” community that believe that a person’s “works” add to or complete their salvation. I believe that such teaching is nothing more than a doctrine of demons – all “religious” teaching apart from Christianity presents a works salvation.

As long as we define this properly, I would have no problem saying that we cannot earn our way into heaven by our works. Of course, we cannot forget:

10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Since Salvation is of God, and He is perfect – then nothing can "entice " Him to change His mind since those that are “In Christ” were chosen before the foundation of the earth. Thus, in everything God alone is to receive glory and honor and thanksgiving.

Amen! Catholics agree with this.

III. Faith that works = a life of faith that represents a viable witness for Jesus Christ which includes obedience to His teachings and the teachings of the Apostles.

I would encourage you to read the thread I started entitled “Bridging the Faith Alone Divide” to see if we might be able to come to a common understanding on this issue.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

In looking at the original post, it would seem that another good response would be –

Yes, my friend - Faith Alone is enough - if the Faith is in Jesus Christ Alone. For you see, there are 3 types of Faith.

First, there is “Intellectual faith” which may or may not include having a lot of knowledge about Bible – this is important but it is NOT true Saving Faith.

Second, there is “temporal faith” which is calling out to God during times of trouble and times of joy – this is also important to do but it is NOT true Saving Faith.

So, what is true Saving Faith – it is turning from any religious deeds and trusting your whole being on the person of and finished work of Jesus Christ.

As to any concern about “religious deeds” – a person who has Saving Faith will do good works and these works will be done out of Thanksgiving for what God has done for you in and through Jesus Christ. The good works are NOT done to earn Salvation but rather an outward expression of a “changed heart” that will continue to grow in love for Jesus Christ and others.

So, my friend – tell me your testimony to your relationship with Jesus Christ.

Clearly Abraham had what you call “Saving Faith” in Gen 12 (Heb 11:8). So you must conclude he was justified at that point in his life.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

We don’t do works of the law. The works we do by faith are under Gods grace an are part of the initial GIFT OF GOD Eph 2:10…works God prepared beforehand, created in Christ for good works.

James 2:21-24 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

That does not mean that we aren’t confusing salvation by grace with salvation by “Galatianism”: that is is, that we are not confusing​

• reliance on grace
  with
• reliance on grace which is in effect (not in theory, but in effect) grace only in name, but is is fact salvation by works. Salvation is not by grace, & by works of the law, as though by two co-ordinated principles - it’s entirely by grace, in every respect, alone; so that the obedience of the disciple is within grace & by grace & brings forth good works by grace.
  So good works aren’t the basis of salvation, but its proper & expected fruit. They ought to be done - for them not to be done, would make as much sense as for a flower to have no scent. Especially as Christians are the body-parts of Christ - if we are, then His acts through us cannot be without fruit: unless we thing He is Christ the Couch-Potato, snoring away in Heaven, otherwise totally inactive.

As for works and merit - His works are good (surely ?), & some are done through His Body on Earth. It is the whole Christ Who does good on Earth, Soul and Body. And in so far as there is true union between Christ & each of His body-parts, what He does, the body-parts do. They can do nothing of themselves, let alone do any good at all; but only in so far as they are His, enlivened by His Spirit. (Since the only life is that of Christ, no others that are called “life” matter - not to be “in Christ”, is in effect to be dead; which may be why those not “in Christ”, are called “dead in trespasses & sins” by St. Paul. In so far as our good works are tainted by sin, they remain the good works of Christ, but despite or without us; not through us.

Merit is relativised, because it has no source by Christ; it is not to be had, except through grace, His grace; so it is impossible to plead human merit as a basis for, or title to, salvation. We can bring nothing to Him that would recommend us to His mercy - the movement has always to be from Him, to us. IOW, He must do for us what merit is often thought needed to do - saving grace must be a gift to us, or not be given us at all. Either merit is in us through grace, or is not in us.

We merit as living members of His Body, or not at all - so grace is, as always, the only basis for salvation

To emphasise the importance of grace and of works in words (as, by quoting a passage or there) is not sufficient to show that we are giving adequate attention to both in accord with the NT teaching - how we envisage the relation between them, also deserves attention.

Nothing has so far been said that disrupts - let alone disproves - “salvation by faith alone through grace alone”. Things have been said that disrupt certain interpretations of “salvation by faith alone through grace alone” - but the doctrine itself is unscathed. If people treat grace as cheap grace by behaving as though grace were an opportunity to sin on more, that does nothing against “salvation by faith alone through grace alone”: which is no more “disrupted”, than using the sacrament of penance is “disrupted” by being abused. Abuses of a doctrine don’t show it is false.

As to Eph. 2.10 - “Faith alone” does not for one second ignore that: it looks at a different aspect of Christian experience, that’s all. To seek to refute the one by the other is equivalent to arguing that because we are commanded to love our neighbour, we are therefore not to love God.

 

[sandusky]

Catholic Dude:

Clearly Abraham had what you call “Saving Faith” in Gen 12 (Heb 11:8). So you must conclude he was justified at that point in his life.

That is not stated in either passage; it is an assumption on your part.

Gen 12 merely says that “Abram went forth as the Lord had spoken to him.” The word “faith” firsts appears in the NASB95 in Gen 32:10; and in the KJV in Num 12:7, both in the form of “faithful.”

Heb 11, says that what Abe did, he did by faith; but the passage is silent as to the time of Abe’s reckoned righteousness; first it is concerned with Abe’s faith, and not with his righteousness; second, it is written to “Hebrews,” who knew the story of Abe, and who knew that the scriptures explicitly state that Abe was reckoned righteous in Gen 15:6, and not before.

It is clear as well, that Paul, along with the rest of the Hebrews, was aware of that explicit statement; for it is that reckoning of righteousness in Gen 15:6, to which he appeals in Rom 4, to explain how one gets right with God; his explanation begins in chapter one of that epistle with the thesis, “…but the righteous shall live by FAITH.”

Paul knew Gen 12, but he does not appeal to it. James never appeals to Gen 12, with respect to Abe’s justification, but to Gen 15:6; James says that Abe was already righteous when he offered Isaac (2:21), and that God’s assessment of Abe in Gen 15:6 was shown to be correct by Abe’s action in Gen 22 (2:23).

Your hermeneutic is very free, and very creative, and very imaginative, and very assumptive, and it always bring you to a magisterial conclusion; but for me, it lacks discipline, and I am not constrained by magisterial teaching.

Again, for me, you’ve disrupted nothing.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

So good works aren’t the basis of salvation, but its proper & expected fruit. They ought to be done - for them not to be done, would make as much sense as for a flower to have no scent.

They are expected BUT NOT guaranteed fruit. Because they are not guaranteed means for a Christian to fail to do them means they cant be saved. The idea that good works are guaranteed is a dangerous heresy of Protestantism.

Merit is relativised, because it has no source by Christ; it is not to be had, except through grace, His grace; so it is impossible to plead human merit as a basis for, or title to, salvation. We can bring nothing to Him that would recommend us to His mercy - the movement has always to be from Him, to us. IOW, He must do for us what merit is often thought needed to do - saving grace must be a gift to us, or not be given us at all. Either merit is in us through grace, or is not in us.

Just like the parable of the talents, Jesus gives us a gift and expects us to make full use of it, not abuse it.

Nothing has so far been said that disrupts - let alone disproves - “salvation by faith alone through grace alone”. Things have been said that disrupt certain interpretations of “salvation by faith alone through grace alone” - but the doctrine itself is unscathed. If people treat grace as cheap grace by behaving as though grace were an opportunity to sin on more, that does nothing against “salvation by faith alone through grace alone”: which is no more “disrupted”, than using the sacrament of penance is “disrupted” by being abused. Abuses of a doctrine don’t show it is false.

The term “faith alone” by common/popular usage is referring to the the Protestant understanding of soteriology, especially the aspect of forensic style justification.

The “certain interpretations” you mention is none other than Protestantism (with all its variation).

The “cheap grace” accusation only works against protestants because it is not only the logical conclusion but plainly taught by various denominations. There is a huge unmeasurable ravine between OSAS type theology and abusing the Sacrament of Penance.

 

[guanophore]

It needs to be made clear that justification is NOT a legal/forensic decree where the Father’s focus is shifted from the sinner onto Christ, that is where Protestants are getting hung up. Catholics teach justification corresponds to the purity of your soul and God considers that.

I think you are wrong on this point Dude. I believe that Paul is most definitely using legal language to describe justification. He clearly explains that we have a 'bond" (warrant) due to our sins, and that it was nailed to the cross (paid in full). Where Protestants get hung up is that Catholics believe that, even though one has been justified, one can go out and commit another crime (sin) thereby causing another warrant to be issued. the OSAS (once saved always saved) believe that justification happens once, for all time, and the effects of it can never be lost. Justification does purify the soul, but it is purified by the blood of Christ, and nothing else.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I think you are wrong on this point Dude. I believe that Paul is most definitely using legal language to describe justification. He clearly explains that we have a 'bond" (warrant) due to our sins, and that it was nailed to the cross (paid in full). Where Protestants get hung up is that Catholics believe that, even though one has been justified, one can go out and commit another crime (sin) thereby causing another warrant to be issued. the OSAS (once saved always saved) believe that justification happens once, for all time, and the effects of it can never be lost. Justification does purify the soul, but it is purified by the blood of Christ, and nothing else.

Protestants dont believe that upon being being justified the condition or your soul has changed. They make it clear God is “declaring” them righteous though they are not actually made righteous. In effect when God “looks” at the sinner all He “sees” is the righteousness of Christ despite the fact the sinner’s condition has not changed.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Protestants dont believe that upon being being justified the condition or your soul has changed. They make it clear God is “declaring” them righteous though they are not actually made righteous. In effect when God “looks” at the sinner all He “sees” is the righteousness of Christ despite the fact the sinner’s condition has not changed.

Correct.

For them, righteousness is imputed not infused. God merely covers over their sins as opposed taking them away completely. Exekiel 36:24-26 says otherwise.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Correct.

For them, righteousness is imputed not infused. God merely covers over their sins as opposed taking them away completely. Exekiel 36:24-26 says otherwise.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Common sense in regards to the moral integrity of our God says otherwise as well.
Some good news as well is that Catholic Apologists are showing that the greek words for “credited” and “declare righteous” are not signifying an alien/imputed righteousness that Protestants theologians have claimed all this time but instead signify reality.

 

[mikeledes]

Here are some interesting links on the topic of justification. the first one I’ve posted in other threads. The others are new.

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2209

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2134

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2125

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=1966

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=1913

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=1934

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Bishopite]

So good works aren’t the basis of salvation, but its proper & expected fruit. They ought to be done - for them not to be done, would make as much sense as for a flower to have no scent. Especially as Christians are the body-parts of Christ - if we are, then His acts through us cannot be without fruit: unless we thing He is Christ the Couch-Potato, snoring away in Heaven, otherwise totally inactive.

What you are saying is that the works we do after we receive God’s grace “ought to be done” I agree that they ought to be done but would add that they have to be done in order to show one’s true faith, which is what James is getting at. And as I said prior, the works we do after receiving grace are works which God prepared before hand that we should walk in them, Eph 2:10. As Augustine says these types of works are God simply blessing His own works in us. And even though we have to do them we can’t take credit for them since they are God’s works of grace in us.

Merit is relativised, because it has no source by Christ; it is not to be had, except through grace, His grace; so it is impossible to plead human merit as a basis for, or title to, salvation. We can bring nothing to Him that would recommend us to His mercy - the movement has always to be from Him, to us. IOW, He must do for us what merit is often thought needed to do - saving grace must be a gift to us, or not be given us at all. Either merit is in us through grace, or is not in us.

Catholicism distiguishes between strict merit, which only Christ can have since He is the only perfect divine person. And the word “merit” comes from the Latin word “meritum” meaning reward, so that when we come to Christ and trust in Him and by faith cooperate with His grace, He merits [rewards] us for our faithfulness, just as He did with Abraham. We can NEVER earn our way to heaven, but we must do works of love [charity] in order to show our true faith and we must cooperate with God’s grace. If we do, He rewards us with more grace so that we grow in grace as Gal 3:18 says…to grow in grace.

To emphasise the importance of grace and of works in words (as, by quoting a passage or there) is not sufficient to show that we are giving adequate attention to both in accord with the NT teaching - how we envisage the relation between them, also deserves attention.

I agree.

Nothing has so far been said that disrupts - let alone disproves - “salvation by faith alone through grace alone”.

Well, there I’d again disagree…James 2:24 proves otherwise.

Things have been said that disrupt certain interpretations of “salvation by faith alone through grace alone” - but the doctrine itself is unscathed. If people treat grace as cheap grace by behaving as though grace were an opportunity to sin on more, that does nothing against “salvation by faith alone through grace alone”: which is no more “disrupted”, than using the sacrament of penance is “disrupted” by being abused. Abuses of a doctrine don’t show it is false.

I don’t believe I’ve ever argued the point that abuse of a doctrine disproves it.

As to Eph. 2.10 - “Faith alone” does not for one second ignore that: it looks at a different aspect of Christian experience, that’s all. To seek to refute the one by the other is equivalent to arguing that because we are commanded to love our neighbour, we are therefore not to love God.

I’m simply pointing out that in Eph 2:8-10, “works” is used in two diametrically different ways in back-to-back verses. When we look at Eph 2:8-10 we see two differing types of “works.” One says in verses 8-9 that those works don’t get us into heaven (because they are our personal works done without grace), the other works in verse 10 says God created us for “good works” and that we should walk in those good works (those works done after we receive His grace so that they aren’t our works to take credit for but God’s since it was His grace that enabled us to do them) The word works in scripture doesn’t always mean our personal works but also those for which God has created us and by which we can do with the help of His grace. Faith alone says that works of any kind aren’t required for salvation, yet God created us for good works that we should walk in those good works which His grace helps us to accomplish.