Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

[joe370]

Joe370
Before I begin I pray: “Father in Heaven, please reveal yourself to us. Amen”

I do believe in those passages. But this is very important. I am not sure that we all agree. If any disagree with the following, please post your reasons along with scriptures…Obedience will arise out of living faith but adding obedience to the Law as a requirement for salvation results in the loss of salvation.

Salvation by Law = Salvation by works. So, adding any work as a condition for salvation to the sole condition of Living Faith, results in loss of salvation.

Works cannot save! As far as anyone adding any work as a condition for salvation, resulting in a loss of salvation, I have no idea. Only God knows who is saved and who is not.

That said, the following is still true:

“faith without works is dead.”

“In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

 

[driscll_books]

Rather, faith iseverything which leads us to good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

 

[DavidWJackson]

Does faith alone and luke warm ring a bell with anyone?

 

[Third_Day]

=bbbeatt;10462863]God was the witness. I don’t see what point you are making here

. According to scripture God was the witness to Abraham’s works and that is why James uses Abraham as an example. James conclusion is “You see a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Abraham was justified by works in the site of God.

If Abraham told the man to go in peace without giving the man what he needed… assuming Abraham was able to help, it would be a sin, harming Abraham’s fellowship with God but would not result in damnation…. because SALVATION IS NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

According to James if Abraham did what I suggested then Abraham would not have been saved. .His faith, without the works of love, would have been dead
"What does it profit if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food and one of you says to him "God in peace, be warmed and filled, “without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself if it has no works is dead.” James 2:14-17

Can you be saved with a dead faith?

“For by grace you have been SAVED through FAITH, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:8 NRSVCE

Eph 2:8 explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

WORKS of the MOSAIC LAW not Christian works prompted and accomplished by grace.

What if someone who is “saved” backslides into adultery. Is he still saved by his faith alone?
It is hard for me to imagine that one, having tasted the Holy Spirit, would commit physical adultery

. Are you claiming that NO born again Christian has never fallen into adultery?

Christ said to lust in ones heart amounted to adultery

YEs, a mortal sin. A rejection of grace

Again, Ephesians 2:8 explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS. So, he does not move into a state of eternal damnation in his act of adultery, whether by lust or physical adultery.

WORKS of the Old Law. Those are the works Paul is addressing

You claim that you could commit adultery and still be saved without confessing or repenting yet that goes against scripture.
Isn’t one of the commandments thou shall not commit adultery?
Do you deny the words of Paul spoken to Christians?
Ephesians 5:5-6:
Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters** nor adulterers** nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I

 

[Third_Day]

=bbbeatt;10466172]Joe370

ADDING CONDITIONS OF SALVATION RESULTS IN LOSS OF SALVATION

Not according to Jesus who said “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:20

When Jesus was asked what one must do to have eternal life Jesus said “keep the commandments” Jesus has no problems with works done by His grace.

Then certain individuals came down (to Galatia) from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” ’ Acts 15:1

Yes! The works Paul is condemning is the Law of Moses NOT Christian works of grace.

The following passages are from the book of Galatians, written by Paul to the churches at Galatia:

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel… to pervert the gospel of Christ.’ Galatians 1:7

The different gospel was works of the Old Law NOT works of grace which is part of the Gospel. Keeping the commandments are works.

“

we know that a person is justified not by **the works of the law **but through faith in Jesus Christ.” Galatians 2:16

This should be read: “We know that a person is justified not by the law of Moses, specifically circumcision, but through faith in Christ.”

“all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse’ Galatians 3:10

The law of Moses. That is why the Council was called. You just quoted from Acts 15 which says, " Then certain individuals came down (to Galatia) from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved

“

no one is justified before God by the law” Galatians 3:11

The law of Moses

“if you let yourselves be circumcised (believing that circumcision is a requirement for justification or salvation), Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the entire law. 4 You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace… You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth? Galatians 5:1-7 (Parenthesis mine)

Yes! The Old Covenant Law specifically circumcision.

Explanation: Paul told the Galatians that they would LOSE THEIR SALVATION if they added obedience to the law as a condition of salvation.

Obedience to the law of Moses NOT the moral commandments of God that are necessary for salvation along with faith.

Circumcision was not wrong.

If you thought it could save you, it was wrong.

Paul was circumcised and he had Timothy circumcised

So that he could preach to the Jews.

To pursue salvation by keeping the law… instead of salvation by living faith

…Living faith includes keeping the law of God which are necessary along with faith. We are not justified by faith alone.

means, that one must be true to the plan of salvation** they chose**. If salvation by keeping the law is pursued, then the entire law must be kept (which is impossible).

The plan “They chose?” God has chosen the plan which includes faith and works of grace that He gives us to do. It is all God’s grace

Obedience will arise out of living faith but adding obedience to the Law as a requirement for salvation results in the loss of salvation.

That contradicts scripture “Obedience leads to justification.” Romans 6:16

Salvation by Law = Salvation by works. So, adding any work as a condition for salvation to the sole condition of Living Faith, results in loss of salvation.

Not according to scripture "God will give to everyman according to his works…eternal life." Romans 2:6

 

[bbbeatt]

. According to scripture God was the witness to Abraham’s works and that is why James uses Abraham as an example. James conclusion is “You see a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Abraham was justified by works in the site of God.

According to James if Abraham did what I suggested then Abraham would not have been saved. .His faith, without the works of love, would have been dead
"What does it profit if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food and one of you says to him "God in peace, be warmed and filled, “without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself if it has no works is dead.” James 2:14-17

Can you be saved with a dead faith?

WORKS of the MOSAIC LAW not Christian works prompted and accomplished by grace.

. Are you claiming that NO born again Christian has never fallen into adultery?

YEs, a mortal sin. A rejection of grace

WORKS of the Old Law. Those are the works Paul is addressing

You claim that you could commit adultery and still be saved without confessing or repenting yet that goes against scripture.
Isn’t one of the commandments thou shall not commit adultery?
Do you deny the words of Paul spoken to Christians?
Ephesians 5:5-6:
Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters** nor adulterers** nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I

“Heavenly Father, please reveal yourself to Third Day and myself.”
Abraham’s actions were a witness to God when performed; a witness to man when put in the scripture and made a witness to man when James included the story in his letter. Just before mentioning Abraham, James EXPRESSLY STATED that he is talking about justification (proof) of faith BEFORE MEN “I by my works will show YOU my faith” James 2:18.

James defines dead faith as a faith with NO works. You have characterized dead faith as faith with ONE sin. “So faith by itself, if it has NO works, is dead." Jam 2:17 In His Spirit, we must follow Paul’s admonition “do not go beyond what is written" 1 Cor 4:6
Paul EXPRESSLY STATED that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.” Eph 2:8

Paul said “works”. He did not say works of the law. You are saying that we are saved as a result of works while scripture EXPRESSLY STATES that salvation is “NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS”.

“5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure person, or one who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” Ephesians 5:5; One who has the Holy Spirit within him is not an idolater, impure or a fornicator. We are SAINTS “To the saints who are in Ephesus” Eph 1:1. Just because I repaired my car doesn’t make me a mechanic. A General may clean out a latrine which is the duty of a private… but he is still a General. A saint can commit adultery and still be viewed by God as a saint rather than an adulterer. You have the same in your belief. A fornicator who repents no longer considered a fornicator and is therefore no longer subject to Eph 5:5 “no fornicator or impure person, or one who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
We have righteousness from God, an imputed righteousness… “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith,” Romans 1:17
“But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ[a] for all who believe.” Romans 3:21-22; Our faith makes us righteous…
““Abraham believed God, and it was CREDITED to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:3 So, even though we sin, God sees us as righteous because of our faith and because of Christ’s atoning death. Paul said “But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.” Romans 7:17
There is however a price to be paid for the sins of the saints: “For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.” 1 Cor 3:11-15

Eph 2:8 explicitly states that salvation is “NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS”. You stated that Paul meant WORKS of the MOSAIC LAW not Christian works prompted and accomplished by grace. However, that is not what Paul said. Those two categories of works are subsets of “Works”… In the same way “frozen” is a subset of “cold”. You may as well say that “cold” really meant “frozen”.

 

[bbbeatt]

Not according to Jesus who said “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:20

When Jesus was asked what one must do to have eternal life Jesus said “keep the commandments” Jesus has no problems with works done by His grace.

Yes! The works Paul is condemning is the Law of Moses NOT Christian works of grace.

The different gospel was works of the Old Law NOT works of grace which is part of the Gospel. Keeping the commandments are works.

“

This should be read: “We know that a person is justified not by the law of Moses, specifically circumcision, but through faith in Christ.”

The law of Moses. That is why the Council was called. You just quoted from Acts 15 which says, " Then certain individuals came down (to Galatia) from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved

“The law of Moses

Yes! The Old Covenant Law specifically circumcision.

Obedience to the law of Moses NOT the moral commandments of God that are necessary for salvation along with faith.

If you thought it could save you, it was wrong.

So that he could preach to the Jews.

…Living faith includes keeping the law of God which are necessary along with faith. We are not justified by faith alone.

The plan “They chose?” God has chosen the plan which includes faith and works of grace that He gives us to do. It is all God’s grace

That contradicts scripture “Obedience leads to justification.” Romans 6:16

Not according to scripture "God will give to everyman according to his works…eternal life." Romans 2:6

ADDING CONDITIONS OF SALVATION RESULTS IN LOSS OF SALVATION

You stated: Not according to Jesus who said “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:20

““Abraham believed God, and it was CREDITED to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:3 So, righteousness from God is given to us or “credited” to us and therefore exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees. This righteousness is credited on the sole condition of FAITH.

You stated: When Jesus was asked what one must do to have eternal life Jesus said “keep the commandments” Jesus has no problems with works done by His grace.

The commandments that Christ referred to ARE THE MOSAIC LAW. Christ even listed some of the ten commandments. So here you are saying that WE ARE SAVED BY KEEPING THE MOSAIC LAW. Many passages that state explicitly that we are not justified or saved by works. Your response was that works of the Mosaic Law CANNOT SAVE, but works of grace can.

The truth is that there are two paths to heaven. One is keeping the law (works). No one has or ever will enter heaven by this standard except Christ. The other standard is faith. ““Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They answered, “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,” Acts 16:30-31

Paul said “we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ.” Galatians 2:16 You say we are not saved by works of law but by WORKS OF GRACE.

You are recommending the first (impossible) path to heaven. This path results in the loss of salvation:

“if you let yourselves be circumcised (believing that circumcision is a requirement for justification or salvation), Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the ENTIRE LAW. 4 You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace… You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth? Galatians 5:1-7 (Parenthesis mine)

Explanation: Paul told the Galatians that they would LOSE THEIR SALVATION if they added obedience to the law as a condition of salvation. Circumcision was not wrong. Paul was circumcised and he had Timothy circumcised. To pursue salvation by keeping the law… instead of salvation by living faith… means, that one must be true to the plan of salvation they chose. If salvation by keeping the law is pursued, then the entire law must be kept (which is impossible).

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Faith without Works Is Dead (RSVCE)

*14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?[c] 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.*

 

[Third_Day]

=bbbeatt;10488190]“Heavenly Father, please reveal yourself to Third Day and myself.”

Amen!
Before I answer your questions could you answer this please?

If you had a faith so strong, a faith so tremendous in Christ that you could remove mountains from the face of the earth, would you be saved by that kind of faith?

Can you answer yes or no?

Is believing a work? Can you answer yes or no?

Abraham’s actions were a witness to God when performed;

Abraham’s action was more than just a witness to God. His action was justification before God. Works are a part of our justification, part of our salvation process.

You are confusing human works with God graced works. Human works are nothing to God. Works performed by a believer are meritorious. That is why Paul can say that God will give to everyman according to his works eternal life. Romans 2:6-7
Can you explain that verse please?

Not just some “extra” rewards in heaven but eternal life.
That is why Paul can say that the observers of the moral law “Will be justified “Romans 2:13

Just before mentioning Abraham, James EXPRESSLY STATED that he is talking about justification (proof) of faith BEFORE MEN “I by my works will show YOU my faith” James 2:18.

We are only justified, that is saved, by God not man. James says his works will “show” his faith. That has nothing to do with justification for eternal life.
Of course people will see a Christian’s good works and true saving faith can be shown by works of love.
James then mentions demons who have faith alone, They have an intellectual faith that lacks love and obedience to God which will lead to justification.

James defines dead faith as a faith with NO works. You have characterized dead faith as faith with ONE sin.

Adam and Eve committed ONE sin.A person with true faith can by his free will reject God’s grace and commit a mortal sin. That is why there are so many warnings in the bible to born again Christian. Over and over scripture warns Christians not to commit sins like adultery, fornication, theft etc. If they do that they become “unrighteous” and have forfeited their inheritance. Paul is clear on this.
Galatians 5:19-21:
”Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, idolatry, sorcery, jealousy, anger, selfishness, envy, drunkenness, ……I warn you as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”

“So faith by itself, if it has NO works, is dead." Jam 2:17 In His Spirit, we must follow Paul’s admonition “do not go beyond what is written" 1 Cor 4:6

And what is written is that one mortal sin separates us from God
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries….how much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and outraged the Spirit of grace?..It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

1 Cor. 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God"

Paul said “works”. He did not say works of the law. You are saying that we are saved as a result of works while scripture EXPRESSLY STATES that salvation is “NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS”.

The phrase used by Paul:“the works of the Law” or “the Law” or “works” all mean the same thing and it has specifically to do with the heresy of the Judaizers. It has to do with trusting in circumcision and the other works of the law for salvation and entrance into Heaven.

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
In Romans 4: 2 Paul asks the Jews “For is Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about, but not before God.”
In Romans 4:10-11 Paul tells us what works he is talking when he asks the Jews how was faith reckoned to Abraham was it, “before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after but before.”

That is why Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13: “Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Catholics accept the plain meaning of this passage: we cooperate with God, and it is God who does it all since he is “at work” in us, “both to will and to work.”

“5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure person, or one who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” Ephesians 5:5; One who has the Holy Spirit within him is not an idolater, impure or a fornicator. We are SAINTS “To the saints who are in Ephesus” Eph 1:1. Just because I repaired my car doesn’t make me a mechanic. A General may clean out a latrine which is the duty of a private… but he is still a General.
** A saint can commit adultery** and still be viewed by God as a saint rather than an adulterer.

A ‘saint” can spit in God’s face and still inherit the kingdom of God? A ‘saint” can commit murder, child sexual abuse, commit robbery, rape and is still a saint worthy of heaven?

 

[Third_Day]

=bbbeatt;10488190]" You have the same in your belief. A fornicator who repents no longer considered a fornicator and is therefore no longer subject to Eph 5:5 “no fornicator or impure person, or one who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”

Yes but he must confess his sin and repent and have the absolute intention sinning no more.
You are telling me he doesn’t have to repent or confess because those are works!

We have righteousness from God, an imputed righteousness… “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith,” Romans 1:17

Imputed righteousness is unbiblical. Protestant Theologian Alister McGrath writes in his book A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification that this teaching is a “novelty, “a belief that no one in Christian history had ever taught or even contemplated.
The Greek word for imputed, credited or reckoned is logizomai and it doesn’t mean what Protestants claim that it means.
It is unbiblical to believe that a man can be a saint and a filthy sinner at the same time.

This belief contradicts the Holy Word of God:
“No one who abides in him sins…little children, let not one deceive you, He who does right is righteous as he his righteous. **He who commits sin is of the devil **“ 1 John 3:6-8

Yet you claim you can commit mortal sin, adultery, fornication, child abuse, theft, murder and still be sanctified!

It doesn’t mean that a man is still a sinner but God doesn’t see his sins but only sees Christ’s righteousness.
God will see YOUR sins not Christ’s righteousness you have rejected by mortal sin.

Paul feared the judgment of Christ but you don’t!
“For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body therefore knowing the FEAR of the Lord we persuade men.” 1 Cor. 5”10-11

“

“Abraham believed God, and it was CREDITED to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:3 So, even though we sin, God sees us as righteous because of our faith and because of Christ’s atoning death.

The text doesn’t say “Abraham sinned and it was credited to him as Christ’s righteousness. It says Abraham believed. It was REAL justification not a fictional justification/righteousness.

Paul said “But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.” Romans 7:17

Yes sin dwells in all of us because the effect of original sin. We have a wounded nature with an inclination to desire sin. That’s what Paul is talking about.
Are you trying to say that Paul was a fornicator? A child molester?

There is however a price to be paid for the sins of the saints: “For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.” 1 Cor 3:11-15

That verse isn’t talking about being judged whether or not we receive “rewards.” Notice this takes place after death. Paul says the man’s “works” will be tested by fire. Some will survive others will be burned up. Notice is says the man will “suffer”. There is no suffering in heaven
Notice it says the man “will be saved as through fire.” There is no fire in heaven and no one will be saved from hell. The fire is a fire of purification where our venial sins are cleansed from our soul so that we can enter heaven. This verse is about purgatory.

Eph 2:8 explicitly states that salvation is “NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS”. You stated that Paul meant WORKS of the MOSAIC LAW not Christian works prompted and accomplished by grace. However, that is not what Paul said

.That is exactly what Paul is talking about. That’s what the controversy was all about. Must a Christian become a Jew, be circumcised and obey the law of Moses to be saved. The Council in Acts 15 said no.

Those two categories of works are subsets of “Works”… In the same way “frozen” is a subset of “cold”. You may as well say that “cold” really meant “frozen”.

Just read the plain text and the history of the Judaiers. Paul even says that “Peter feared the circumcision party” and that is why he stopped eating with the Gentiles. Galatians 2:13

 

[Third_Day]

=bbbeatt;10488297]You stated: When Jesus was asked what one must do to have eternal life Jesus said “keep the commandments” Jesus has no problems with works done by His grace.The commandments that Christ referred to ARE THE MOSAIC LAW. Christ even listed some of the ten commandments.

Yes, the Ten Commandments are part of the Mosaic Law but they are the MORAL commandments that we must keep to have eternal life

Paul doesn’t reject the moral commandments of the law

Paul says in 1 Cor. 7:19 “Neither circumcision or uncircumcision counts for anything. What counts is keeping the commandments of God.”

In Romans 2: 13 Paul says that by keeping the moral commandments we are justified:
" The doers of the law will be justified”

Then in verse 22 he rails against those who do not keep the commandments:

While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? ….you who boast in the law do you dishonor God by breaking the law? For it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

If you don’t think it is necessary to keep the commandments to be saved then you are blaspheming God.

So here you are saying that WE ARE SAVED BY KEEPING THE MOSAIC LAW. Many passages that state explicitly that we are not justified or saved by works. Your response was that works of the Mosaic Law CANNOT SAVE, but works of grace can.

Faith AND works of grace. Both are necessary. Faith without works of grace is a dead faith

T

he truth is that there are two paths to heaven. One is keeping the law (works). No one has or ever will enter heaven by this standard except Christ. The other standard is faith. ““Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They answered, “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,” Acts 16:30-31

Yes! The verse says “What must I DO.” Believing is a work of grace.

Paul said “we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law

Not justified by circumcision or other ceremonial works that do not require God’s grace.

but THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ…

Notice it doesn’t say through faith ALONE. Paul didn’t have the narrow idea of faith that you do. Faith for Paul included works of love and obedience to God.

You are recommending the first (impossible) path to heaven. This path results in the loss of salvation:

The only path to heaven is by God’s grace. Faith and works are all God’s grace.
Are you saying it is impossible to keep the commandments?
Are you saying the commandments are a burden?

“if you let yourselves be circumcised (believing that circumcision is a requirement for justification or salvation), Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Amen!

Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the ENTIRE LAW.

Amen! The Mosaic law, specifically circumcision, not the law of grace brought by Christ.

You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace… You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth? Galatians 5:1-7 (Parenthesis mine)

Amen! Paul was speaking to Jews who believed they could be saved by circumcision. They fell from grace with the belief that the Old Covenant could save them and not God’s grace.

Explanation: Paul told the Galatians that they would LOSE THEIR SALVATION if they added obedience to the law as a condition of salvation

. Yes. Obedience to the Old Covenant.

Circumcision was not wrong.

It was wrong to say it was necessary for salvation as the Jewish Christians were doing.

Paul was circumcised and he had Timothy circumcised.

Paul was a Jew so of course he was circumcised. Timothy was not a Jew. He was circumcised for pastoral reasons so that the Jews would allow him and Timothy to enter Jewish settlements without hindrance.

To pursue salvation by keeping the law… instead of salvation by living faith… means, that one must be true to the plan of salvation they chose. If salvation by keeping the law is pursued, then the entire law must be kept (which is impossible).

If you believe that you can commit adultery, fornication, child sexual abuse and still go to heaven without confessing those sins and repenting that you have truly been deceived. Let these words of Paul sink in:

1 Thessalonians. 4:3-8
“It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.”

And these words of God
Ezek 18:4
For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul that sins will die.

Ezek 18:24
But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

 

[bbbeatt]

Amen!
Before I answer your questions could you answer this please?

If you had a faith so strong, a faith so tremendous in Christ that you could remove mountains from the face of the earth, would you be saved by that kind of faith?

Can you answer yes or no?

Is believing a work? Can you answer yes or no?

Abraham’s action was more than just a witness to God. His action was justification before God. Works are a part of our justification, part of our salvation process.

You are confusing human works with God graced works. Human works are nothing to God. Works performed by a believer are meritorious. That is why Paul can say that God will give to everyman according to his works eternal life. Romans 2:6-7
Can you explain that verse please?

Not just some “extra” rewards in heaven but eternal life.
That is why Paul can say that the observers of the moral law “Will be justified “Romans 2:13
We are only justified, that is saved, by God not man. James says his works will “show” his faith. That has nothing to do with justification for eternal life.
Of course people will see a Christian’s good works and true saving faith can be shown by works of love.
James then mentions demons who have faith alone, They have an intellectual faith that lacks love and obedience to God which will lead to justification.

Adam and Eve committed ONE sin.A person with true faith can by his free will reject God’s grace and commit a mortal sin. That is why there are so many warnings in the bible to born again Christian. Over and over scripture warns Christians not to commit sins like adultery, fornication, theft etc. If they do that they become “unrighteous” and have forfeited their inheritance. Paul is clear on this.
Galatians 5:19-21:
”Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, idolatry, sorcery, jealousy, anger, selfishness, envy, drunkenness, ……I warn you as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”

And what is written is that one mortal sin separates us from God
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries….how much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and outraged the Spirit of grace?..It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

1 Cor. 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God"

The phrase used by Paul:“the works of the Law” or “the Law” or “works” all mean the same thing and it has specifically to do with the heresy of the Judaizers. It has to do with trusting in circumcision and the other works of the law for salvation and entrance into Heaven.

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
In Romans 4: 2 Paul asks the Jews “For is Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about, but not before God.”
In Romans 4:10-11 Paul tells us what works he is talking when he asks the Jews how was faith reckoned to Abraham was it, “before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after but before.”

That is why Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13: “Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Catholics accept the plain meaning of this passage: we cooperate with God, and it is God who does it all since he is “at work” in us, “both to will and to work.”
A ‘saint” can spit in God’s face and still inherit the kingdom of God? A ‘saint” can commit murder, child sexual abuse, commit robbery, rape and is still a saint worthy of heaven?

Third Day,

Seconds after I escaped my burning home, the staircase was engulfed in flames. I trusted in Me. A series of tragedies brought me to the edge and I called on the Lord. His peace flooded into me & a light appeared in the dark room. To the next person I saw I said, “I became a Christian last night”. I was in the spirit for 3 days. That was 40 years ago.

Over the years, I have been taught many doctrines that grieved His spirit within me. These doctrines were not explicitly stated in scripture. They were always deductions drawn from scriptures using logic. Man’s logic is very fallible. They turned the scriptures into a maze of contradictions. Here is an example directly from the scriptures.

“21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about him?” 22 Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he REMAIN UNTIL I COME, what is that to you? Follow me!” 23 So the rumor spread in the community[a] that this disciple WOULD NOT DIE. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “IF it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”

The false rumor was the result of going beyond what was actually said. Drawing a conclusion.

Continued…

 

[bbbeatt]

Amen!
Before I answer your questions could you answer this please?

If you had a faith so strong, a faith so tremendous in Christ that you could remove mountains from the face of the earth, would you be saved by that kind of faith?

Can you answer yes or no?

Is believing a work? Can you answer yes or no?

Abraham’s action was more than just a witness to God. His action was justification before God. Works are a part of our justification, part of our salvation process.

You are confusing human works with God graced works. Human works are nothing to God. Works performed by a believer are meritorious. That is why Paul can say that God will give to everyman according to his works eternal life. Romans 2:6-7
Can you explain that verse please?

Not just some “extra” rewards in heaven but eternal life.
That is why Paul can say that the observers of the moral law “Will be justified “Romans 2:13
We are only justified, that is saved, by God not man. James says his works will “show” his faith. That has nothing to do with justification for eternal life.
Of course people will see a Christian’s good works and true saving faith can be shown by works of love.
James then mentions demons who have faith alone, They have an intellectual faith that lacks love and obedience to God which will lead to justification.

Adam and Eve committed ONE sin.A person with true faith can by his free will reject God’s grace and commit a mortal sin. That is why there are so many warnings in the bible to born again Christian. Over and over scripture warns Christians not to commit sins like adultery, fornication, theft etc. If they do that they become “unrighteous” and have forfeited their inheritance. Paul is clear on this.
Galatians 5:19-21:
”Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, idolatry, sorcery, jealousy, anger, selfishness, envy, drunkenness, ……I warn you as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”

And what is written is that one mortal sin separates us from God
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries….how much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and outraged the Spirit of grace?..It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

1 Cor. 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God"

The phrase used by Paul:“the works of the Law” or “the Law” or “works” all mean the same thing and it has specifically to do with the heresy of the Judaizers. It has to do with trusting in circumcision and the other works of the law for salvation and entrance into Heaven.

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
In Romans 4: 2 Paul asks the Jews “For is Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about, but not before God.”
In Romans 4:10-11 Paul tells us what works he is talking when he asks the Jews how was faith reckoned to Abraham was it, “before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after but before.”

That is why Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13: “Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Catholics accept the plain meaning of this passage: we cooperate with God, and it is God who does it all since he is “at work” in us, “both to will and to work.”
A ‘saint” can spit in God’s face and still inherit the kingdom of God? A ‘saint” can commit murder, child sexual abuse, commit robbery, rape and is still a saint worthy of heaven?

Continued…

In interpreting scripture, we must be careful to not “go beyond what is written” Paul wrote: “Do not go beyond what is written” 1 Cor 4:6.

If you will not accept a doctrine as a doctrine of God, unless it is EXPLICELY STATED in the scriptures, the scriptures become simple and clear. It may take 40 years for them all to become clear. But by faith, they will.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.” Eph 2:8,9
Paul explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

And yes, faith is a work (John 6:29). This is the work that results in eternal life. That doesn’t mean that works (plural) save.

If a carpenter wants to drive a screw, he knows that any tool will not do. Only the screwdriver can accomplish this. He would not say that “tools drive screws”. He would say screwdrivers drive screws. In the same way, it is not true that “works save”.

One work… faith… that is the work that saves… just as Paul expressly stated in Eph 2:8

Another example is the Corinthians 13 passage you referred to “if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing”. “I am nothing” does not equal “damnation”. The passage also doesn’t state that it is possible to have that tremendous faith without also having love. I may say “If I had the wings of a bird, I would…” That doesn’t mean that it is possible for me to have the wings of a bird.

“Do not go beyond what is written” combined with faith and a willingness to obey will make the scriptures come clear.

God Bless,

 

[eonporter]

In interpreting scripture, we must be careful to not “go beyond what is written” Paul wrote: “Do not go beyond what is written” 1 Cor 4:6.

Yes, except that when he wrote that the New Testament didn’t exist yet.

Man, I am sorry, but I fully disagree with you.

What makes the scriptures come clear is understanding the context in which they were written instead of trying to reverse engineer it as if they were instructions dropped on earth by an alien race from another planet.

If God just wanted us to follow instructions on a piece of paper then He would just have sent us book with a set of very clear, unmistakable rules. But instead, He sent us his Son. Perhaps He did that because there is no way to sum up the complexity of the human soul in words. He probably knew that we would never get what he meant just by following words, then He sent someone to teach by example.

Jesus was a real person, and so were the people who lived with Him. And so were the people who lived after him, and carried on His Church, the true, one, apostolic Church that exists until today. These were real people that lived (and died) by Jesus, just to teach others how to behave like He did, by example.

Of course faith alone is not enough for salvation, because well, that is pretty much what Jesus taught by example and that teaching has been all over the history of the Church since… ever.

If works were not important, he would not have done works himself. Neither would the apostles teach that in scripture. And neither would His Church (the visible catholic one) teach that for 1500 years before someone had the not so brilliant idea to say “well, let’s just skip everything that has ever been taught by example not go beyond words written in the bible”.

Christianity is not based on a book, it is based on a Man. If you don’t get the man, you will never get the book.

 

[SteveVH]

Continued…

In interpreting scripture, we must be careful to not “go beyond what is written” Paul wrote: “Do not go beyond what is written” 1 Cor 4:6.

If this is what Paul meant (by the way he didn’t write the words, he was quoting them) then he had to be telling the liteners to disregard everything he was saying because it certainly was not contained in the Scriptures at the time he said it.

 

[Third_Day]

=bbbeatt;10497195…Man’s logic is very fallible. They turned the scriptures into a maze of contradictions. Here is an example directly from the scriptures.

bbbbeatt you stated that man’s logic is fallible when it comes to interpreting scripture and I completely agree. Private interpretation began with the Protestant Reformation which was a total rejection of the authority of the Church established by Christ to interpret scripture

In interpreting scripture, we must be careful to not “go beyond what is written” Paul wrote: “Do not go beyond what is written” 1 Cor 4:6.

I agree. And that is why Christ established a teaching Church so that we do not wander into false interpretations

We must read James 2:24 without going beyond what is written. “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
It makes no sense to read this passage as “You see a man is justified before men by his works and not justified before men by his faith alone.”
You have to give a totally different meaning to the word “justified” when you do that.

Do not go beyond what is written” Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered “IF you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

If you will not accept a doctrine as a doctrine of God, unless it is** EXPLICELY STATED** in the scriptures, the scriptures become simple and clear. It may take 40 years for them all to become clear. But by faith, they will.

Bbbeat, it IS EXPLICITYLY stated that we are “Justified by works and not by faith alone.”

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.” Eph 2:8,9
Paul explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

Bbbeat, you can’t ignore Jewish history, beliefs and customs when reading the bible. Paul was a Jew. The Jews boasted that they had the Law of Moses and therefore they could obligate God to give them salvation by their WORKS of Judaism.

And yes, faith is a work (John 6:29). This is the work that results in eternal life. That doesn’t mean that works (plural) save.

bbbbeat, you believe that we are saved by grace. You believe that Faith comes by grace.
Why can’t you accept that good works also come by grace?
Not Jewish Old Covenant works apart from grace but good works given to us by God not by Moses.

If we can be justified by faith (Grace) why can’t we also be justified by good works (Grace) **It’s all grace.**They BOTH come from God.

You didn’t address this question.

How do you interpret Romans 2:6-7 “God will give to everyman according to his works….eternal life.”

If a carpenter wants to drive a screw, he knows that any tool will not do. Only the screwdriver can accomplish this. He would not say that “tools drive screws”. He would say screwdrivers drive screws. In the same way, it is not true that “works save”.

Faith is the screwdriver but you must TURN the screwdriver for it fulfill it’s purpose.
The turning is the WORK that is necessary.
The job is brought to completion only by the TURNING of the screwdriver. Faith and works.

You want to separate faith from works. It can’t be done. They are of the same substance…grace. It is like trying to separate fire and heat.

One work… faith… that is the work that saves… just as Paul expressly stated in Eph 2:8

You just admitted that faith is a WORK. Keeping the commandments is a WORK of FAITH that is necessary to be saved.

Another example is the Corinthians 13 passage you referred to “if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing”. “I am nothing” does not equal “damnation”.

Faith without love is nothing. It doesn’t equal justification. It doesn’t equal salvation. It does equal damnation. The demons have faith. They believe in God but not love of God.

The passage also doesn’t state that it is possible to have that tremendous faith without also having love. I may say “If I had the wings of a bird, I would…” That doesn’t mean that it is possible for me to have the wings of a bird.

Now you are going beyond what is written. That’s not what the text says. Paul’s whole point is that Faith must be working through love for it to be a justifying faith.

“Do not go beyond what is written” combined with faith and a willingness to obey will make the scriptures come clear.

Bbbeat, can you see what you just said??? You said, “faith combined with a willingness to obey. That is a WORK. That is a work of GRACE. We are justified by faith and the work of obedience.

Bbbeat you said, “A saint can commit adultery and still be viewed by God as a saint rather than an adulterer.”

Can you show me a scripture that says a “saint” can commit adultery and still be a holy person?.
Can you show me a scripture that says an unrepentant adulterer can inherit the kingdom of heaven?
And don’t go beyond what is written.

God bless

 

[bbbeatt]

bbbbeatt you stated that man’s logic is fallible when it comes to interpreting scripture and I completely agree. Private interpretation began with the Protestant Reformation which was a total rejection of the authority of the Church established by Christ to interpret scripture

I agree. And that is why Christ established a teaching Church so that we do not wander into false interpretations

We must read James 2:24 without going beyond what is written. “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
It makes no sense to read this passage as “You see a man is justified before men by his works and not justified before men by his faith alone.”
You have to give a totally different meaning to the word “justified” when you do that.

Do not go beyond what is written” Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered “IF you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Bbbeat, it IS EXPLICITYLY stated that we are “Justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Bbbeat, you can’t ignore Jewish history, beliefs and customs when reading the bible. Paul was a Jew. The Jews boasted that they had the Law of Moses and therefore they could obligate God to give them salvation by their WORKS of Judaism.

bbbbeat, you believe that we are saved by grace. You believe that Faith comes by grace.
Why can’t you accept that good works also come by grace?
Not Jewish Old Covenant works apart from grace but good works given to us by God not by Moses.

If we can be justified by faith (Grace) why can’t we also be justified by good works (Grace) **It’s all grace.**They BOTH come from God.

You didn’t address this question.

How do you interpret Romans 2:6-7 “God will give to everyman according to his works….eternal life.”

Faith is the screwdriver but you must TURN the screwdriver for it fulfill it’s purpose.
The turning is the WORK that is necessary.
The job is brought to completion only by the TURNING of the screwdriver. Faith and works.

You want to separate faith from works. It can’t be done. They are of the same substance…grace. It is like trying to separate fire and heat.

You just admitted that faith is a WORK. Keeping the commandments is a WORK of FAITH that is necessary to be saved.

Faith without love is nothing. It doesn’t equal justification. It doesn’t equal salvation. It does equal damnation. The demons have faith. They believe in God but not love of God.

Now you are going beyond what is written. That’s not what the text says. Paul’s whole point is that Faith must be working through love for it to be a justifying faith.

Bbbeat, can you see what you just said??? You said, “faith combined with a willingness to obey. That is a WORK. That is a work of GRACE. We are justified by faith and the work of obedience.

Can you show me a scripture that says a “saint” can commit adultery and still be a holy person?.
Can you show me a scripture that says an unrepentant adulterer can inherit the kingdom of heaven?
And don’t go beyond what is written.

God bless

Third Day,
May the Lord reveal himself to you and I. Amen

All quotes are from RSVCE.

“Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:1 So, justification is received without works.
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24
The James passage states that works also effect justification along with faith but not independent of faith.

But James doesn’t state that SALVATION is the result of works.

Paul states that salvation is NOT the result of works:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS” Eph 2:8,9
Justification does not equal salvation.

There are passages which you have mentioned that basically say: if you do these works then you will have eternal life. He doesn’t say that eternal life is received BECAUSE of those works.

One cannot do works that please God without faith. “And without faith it is impossible to please him (God). Hebrews 11:6

So, if works are done which please God, they arose out of faith. It was the faith that saved, not the works… as Paul explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

I believe that the words “faith”, “works” and “justified” have not been enlarged or limited by the above… “that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written.” 1 Cor 4:6

This exchange of ideas has been helpful to me.

Father in Heaven, bless Third Day in this life with a joy in your presence that is beyond his wildest dreams! Amen

 

[Third_Day]

=bbbeatt;10507118]Third Day,May the Lord reveal himself to you and I. Amen
All quotes are from RSVCE.

“Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:1 So, justification is received without works.

The verse doesn’t say that justification is received without works. It says we are justified by faith. It doesn’t say by faith alone.
What kind of faith is Paul talking about? He can only be talking about a saving faith.

Would that be a dead faith without works or a saving faith with works?
Only a faith with works can justify.
James makes that point in James 2:14
“What does it profit a man, my brothers if a man says he has faith but has not works. Can FAITH save him?”
The answer is no. Faith does not save without works

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24
The James passage states that works also effect justification along with faith but not independent of faith.

I don’t have a problem with that statement. Works effect justification along with faith and not apart from faith.
The Catholic position is that faith is the “beginning” of our justification which actually takes place when we are baptized. Justification is the exact moment that we are “washed” and “sanctified and justified”. 1 Cor. 6:11

But James doesn’t state that SALVATION is the result of works.

But he DOES state that we are NOT justified by faith alone. Something else is necessary along with our faith for it to be a “saving” faith.

I think what you are missing is that justification is a lifelong process. It’s seed is planted when we have faith then it is full grown at our baptism. We then go through a process of justification (which we can lose) our entire life.
How many times was Abraham justified? You must believe that he was only justified once but that is not what scripture tells us. .Abraham was justified three times. That completely destroys the Protestant position of imputed righteousness

Paul states that salvation is NOT the result of works:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS” Eph 2:8,9

You obviously want to continue to deny that Paul is talking about Old Covenant works such as circumcision. You are a hard nut to crack!

There are passages which you have mentioned that basically say: if you do these works then you will have eternal life. He doesn’t say that eternal life is received BECAUSE of those works.

Yes. If you do them you will have eternal life and therefore if you DON’T do them you will not have eternal life. Works do play a role

Look at this passage. Even if you believe that Jesus is speaking symbolically, He still states that we must DO something. “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you, he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:53-54

One cannot do works that please God without faith. “And without faith it is impossible to please him (God). Hebrews 11:6

Amen

So, if works are done which please God, they arose out of faith. It was the faith that saved, not the works…

OK…… BUT they arose out of a “saving” faith which must INCLUDE works and if a saving faith MUST include works then it is impossible to be saved by faith alone.

as Paul explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

Not the works given by Moses. Not the works that the Jews did to obligate God to save them

That is why in Romans 4:4 Paul says, “Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due.”
The Jews had an employee/employer relationship with God instead of a father/son relationship based on love. Paul is not teaching that Christians do not have to keep the Commandments. He says, “The doers of the law will be justified” and “keeping the commandments is what counts”.

Why was the Council of Jerusalem called? What was the question that had to be settled?

I believe that the words “faith”, “works” and “justified” have not been enlarged or limited by the above… “that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written.” 1 Cor 4:6

I am really not sure how you are interpreting that verse. I know you want to use it to support the “bible alone” theory but that doesn’t work.
Is Paul telling them not to go beyond what is written in this particular letter? In the opening chapter of 1 Corinthians Paul quotes from the Old Testament six times. Perhaps he is telling them not to go beyond what is written in those six quotes.

Paul letters to the Corinthians was written probably around the year 56 which means it was written BEFORE the Gospel of John and Luke and the Acts of the apostles and certainly the book of Revelation. Is Paul telling us not to read those books? I think not

The King James translates it like this:
“that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.”

As you can see by the King James translation “not to go beyond what is written” has nothing to do with sola scriptura.

This exchange of ideas has been helpful to me.

Same here and I hope and pray that you no longer believe that a person can commit adultery and still be a “saint” and inherit heaven.

One last thought. Remember what scripture says we must DO.

“PURSUE holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” Hebrews 12:14

God bless

 

[inChristAlone33]

All good things that come from a righteous man, come from thee:

50 Things the Holy Spirit Does

1.  He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8).

2.  He guides us into all truth (John 16:13).

3.  He regenerates us (John 3:5-8; Titus 3:5).

4.  He glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).

5.  He reveals Christ to us and in us (John 16:14-15).

6.  He leads us (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 5:18; Matt. 4:1; Luke 4:1).

7.  He sanctifies us (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 5:16).

8.  He empowers us (Luke 4:14; 24:49; Rom. 15:19; Acts 1:8).

9.  He fills us (Eph. 5:18; Acts 2:4; 4:8, 31; 9:17).

10. He teaches us to pray (Rom. 8:26-27; Jude 1:20).
11. He bears witness in us that we are children of God (Rom. 8:16).
12. **He produces in us the fruit **or evidence of His work and presence (Gal. 5:22-23). frankviola.org/2010/11/18/50-things-the-holy-spirit-does/

The Holy Spirit gives the increase…not us. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

 

[wittgenstein]

Faith is a gift of God. Works are a gift of God (not I,but Christ in me). See Romans 9:21.