Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

[Azygos]

If the Catholic charge were correct, it would be utterly fatal to Protestantism – sola fide would be a false gospel

You got that right. This is what we (Catholics) have been saying all along and it is the same reason why Martin Luther called the Book of James an epistle of straw because it explodes his false gospel of Faith Alone better known as Faith without Works (Actions).

 

[Christian_Unity]

You presenting an erroneous question better know as a false dilemma.

God gives us 100% of our Salvation but if you fail to co-operate with his WILL then you will inherit the eternal fires of Hell.

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the WILL of my Father in heaven.

If God gives some of us 100% of our salvation, then those who have received 100% of what is necessary to be saved… will be saved and endure to the end. It’s pure math.

 

[JonNC]

Faith alone is equivalent to Spiritual alone. We don’t live solely in a Spiritual Reality, our Reality is Spiritual and Physical. If Faith alone is sufficient then why must we do the Physical act of Praying or Repenting? Faith alone drawn down to its natural conclusion simply means No Physical acts, No Prayer, No Repentance, are needed for Salvation. Which also means no Physical acts can cause one to lose salvation, including mass murder. Faith alone is essentially nothing, without meaning, Void of Life or Dead. For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

Is Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing? :whacky:

If it is, then St. Paul is wrong. But then, so is the thinking regarding sola fide as being what you describe above. So, St. Paul is right.

If Faith alone is sufficient then why must we do the Physical act of Praying or Repenting?

Because while faith alone is the way one accesses justification, it doesn’t thereby mean we are to do nothing.
Christ teaches us to pray. We are told to repent, and even confess, to seek absolution and forgiveness.

Faith alone drawn down to its natural conclusion simply means No Physical acts, No Prayer, No Repentance, are needed for Salvation.

This is not its natural conclusion. Luther would have no part of this!

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Which also means no Physical acts can cause one to lose salvation, including mass murder.

From the Lutheran Confessions:

Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is** not **to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

This is most certainly true. Again, Luther:

There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

You got that right. This is what we (Catholics) have been saying all along and it is the same reason why Martin Luther called the Book of James an epistle of straw because it explodes his false gospel of Faith Alone better known as Faith without Works (Actions).

No, it is not, and no he did not. He was comparing the law emphasis of James to the Gospel emphasis of the books he was comparing James to.

Jon

 

[Azygos]

If God gives some of us 100% of our salvation, then those who have received 100% of what is necessary to be saved… will be saved and endure to the end. It’s pure math.

Now you are assuming whats called Eternal Assurance of Salvation which says that you cannot possibly fall from grace. This is another false doctrine which is proven false by scripture. It’s not surprising that you came to this conclusion because as I said initially Faith Alone means one cannot lose salvation. Scripture says otherwise… So who’s word will you take for it? Martin Luthers or Gods Word?

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. 25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

2nd Peter 2:20-22
20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. 22 What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.”

Revelations 3:2-5
2 Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. 5 The victor will thus be dressed in white, and** I will never erase his name from the book of life** but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.

2nd Timothy 4:7
(Paul) I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith.

 

[JonNC]

=Azygos;10416413]The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by Faith through Grace; not from works, so that no one can boast (Ephesian’s 2:8-9).

Amen!

The Church also teaches that Faith without works is useless and it cannot save you. (James Chapter 2:14-17)

*Worse than this, as I quote above,“To think, ‘If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,’ is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith.” *

Faith and Works (Faith in Action) are both required for Salvation (Not by Works of the Law, The Jewish Works of the Law were fulfilled by Jesus Christ and this is exactly why the apostles preached against these Jewish Works, which you will find throughout the Bible; it is the same reason we don’t sacrifice animals anymore or have dietary restrictions).

But not because those works add to our justification or salvation, which are the result of Christ’s works (grace). Works are necessary because they are the command of Christ. Works are necessary because we are to help the least of His children. Works are necessary because we are expected to love our neighbors as ourselves. Good works are for our neighbors, and are required by the command of Christ.
Failure to do those good works is sin, and repeated, unrepented sin leads to a loss of saving faith.

Can I be saved if I don’t repent of my sins? Repenting is an action (Work) that compliments faith; some other actions (works) are praying, the sacraments (Baptism), alms giving, and works of charity (Works of Charity are absolutely necessary, see Matthew 25:31-46).

True, and we are guided by the Spirit to receive His grace through the sacraments. These are necessary, not because we do them, but because they are do to us. We then respond in joyful thanksgiving by doing His good works.

If you receive Faith and Grace early in your life you must forever co-operate with God; which entails working to maintain your Salvation (Grace) until you die (Philippians 2:12, Matthew 24:13). If a person obtains Faith and Grace on their death bed they will be received into heaven just the same as the person who has been working/co-operating with grace their entire life. Jesus explains this further in Matthew Chapter 20; The Laborers in the Vineyard.

I don’t think a Lutheran would argue this point, except to say that, while these are necessary, it is not these that save, but grace through faith in the one who saves.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

If God gives some of us 100% of our salvation, then those who have received 100% of what is necessary to be saved… will be saved and endure to the end. It’s pure math.

God has made available the grace that saves to all of us, not some of us. Some choose not to access it.

Jon

 

[Stilldreamn]

Martin Luther had pretty strong words about the Antinomians (yes I know he had lots of strong words)

*Christ did not earn only gratia, grace, for us, but also donum, “the gift of the Holy Spirit,” so that we might have not only forgiveness of, but also cessation of, sin. Now he who does not abstain from sin, but persists in his evil life, must have a different Christ, that of the Antinomians; the real Christ is not there, even if all the angels would cry, “Christ! Christ!” He must be damned with this, his new Christ *(On the Council and the Church, Luther’s Works, 41:113-114).

 

[JonNC]

Martin Luther had pretty strong words about the Antinomians (yes I know he had lots of strong words)

*Christ did not earn only gratia, grace, for us, but also donum, “the gift of the Holy Spirit,” so that we might have not only forgiveness of, but also cessation of, sin. Now he who does not abstain from sin, but persists in his evil life, must have a different Christ, that of the Antinomians; the real Christ is not there, even if all the angels would cry, “Christ! Christ!” He must be damned with this, his new Christ *(On the Council and the Church, Luther’s Works, 41:113-114).

Jon

 

[Azygos]

Martin Luther had pretty strong words about the Antinomians (yes I know he had lots of strong words)

*Christ did not earn only gratia, grace, for us, but also donum, “the gift of the Holy Spirit,” so that we might have not only forgiveness of, but also cessation of, sin. Now he who does not abstain from sin, but persists in his evil life, must have a different Christ, that of the Antinomians; the real Christ is not there, even if all the angels would cry, “Christ! Christ!” He must be damned with this, his new Christ *(On the Council and the Church, Luther’s Works, 41:113-114).

I’m not following your logic here. You’re basically claiming that you cannot fall from grace and if you do it is because you have accepted a different Christ, a false Jesus. While what you say can be true as people can accept a false Christ (never having grace to begin with) they can also accept the true Christ (receiving grace) and then fall from grace thus losing salvation.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. 25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

2nd Peter 2:20-22
20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. 22 What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.”

Revelations 3:2-5
2 Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die, for** I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent.** If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. 5 The victor will thus be dressed in white, and** I will never erase his name from the book of life** but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.

 

[JonNC]

I’m not following your logic here. You’re basically claiming that you cannot fall from grace and if you do it is because you have accepted a different Christ, a false Jesus. While what you say can be true as people can accept a false Christ (never having grace to begin with) they can also accept the true Christ (receiving grace) and then fall from grace thus losing salvation.

Where did you read this? Of course one can reject grace. Lutherans have never taught differently.

Augsburg Confession:

Article XII: Of Repentance.

1] Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted 2] and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these 3] two parts: One is contrition, that is, 4] terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of 5] the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven, comforts 6] the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.

7] They condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that those once justified can lose the Holy Ghost. Also those who contend that some may attain to such 8] perfection in this life that they cannot sin.

Jon

 

[Azygos]

Originally Posted by Stilldreamn View Post
Martin Luther had pretty strong words about the Antinomians (yes I know he had lots of strong words)

Christ did not earn only gratia, grace, for us, but also donum, “the gift of the Holy Spirit,” so that we might have not only forgiveness of, but also cessation of, sin. Now he who does not abstain from sin, but persists in his evil life, must have a different Christ,

If that is not what you believe then I apologize but this underlined section above seems to lead to the conclusion I made.

 

[Azygos]

The point I was making is that you can receive the true Christ through baptism and fall away (lose grace/salvation/Christ).

 

[Christian_Unity]

Now you are assuming whats called Eternal Assurance of Salvation which says that you cannot possibly fall from grace. This is another false doctrine which is proven false by scripture. It’s not surprising that you came to this conclusion because as I said initially Faith Alone means one cannot lose salvation. Scripture says otherwise… So who’s word will you take for it? Martin Luthers or Gods Word?

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. 25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

2nd Peter 2:20-22
20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. 22 What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.”

Revelations 3:2-5
2 Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. 5 The victor will thus be dressed in white, and** I will never erase his name from the book of life** but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.

2nd Timothy 4:7
(Paul) I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith.

If you have a synergism view of justification, then salvation is merited and earned partially by God and partially by you. It appears you can boast in the flesh and are sovereign in salvation.

 

[JonNC]

If that is not what you believe then I apologize but this underlined section above seems to lead to the conclusion I made.

Yes, no problem. He is actually saying that to believe that one can remain in sin (repeated and unrepented) and still claim saving faith is claiming a different Gospel.

Jon

 

[Azygos]

He is actually saying that to believe that one can remain in sin (repeated and unrepented) and still claim saving faith is claiming a different Gospel.

Jon

That is not necessarily true however it’s most likely true but not necessarily. One can certainly believe in the True Gospel and remain in sin (repeated and unrepented). The Devil and his Angels are a good example of this as they definitely believe in the true Gospel but remain in sin (repeated and unrepented).

 

[Azygos]

He is actually saying that to believe that one can remain in sin (repeated and unrepented) and still claim saving faith is claiming a different Gospel.

Jon

Oh your right. I misinterpreted that, lol. My bad. Claiming “Saving Faith” while remaining in a state of sin is claiming a different Gospel.

Sorry for misinterpreting, again.

 

[Azygos]

If you have a synergism view of justification, then salvation is merited and earned partially by God and partially by you. It appears you can boast in the flesh and are sovereign in salvation.

You have to co-operate with Gods will in order to accept the free gift of Salvation. So in a strict sense your Salvation is on yourself, or better yet your own choices. If you choose to reject salvation which is a free gift from God then your own damnation is upon yourself as well. Call it whatever you like but I choose to partake in Gods free gift of salvation and to continue to co-operate with it, if I fail to do this then what is to become of Gods free gift of salvation?

 

[JonNC]

That is not necessarily true however it’s most likely true but not necessarily. One can certainly believe in the True Gospel and remain in sin (repeated and unrepented). The Devil and his Angels are a good example of this as they definitely believe in the true Gospel but remain in sin (repeated and unrepented).

We’re not talking about mere assent to God’s existence. That’s not saving faith, in terms of human beings.

Jon

 

[Azygos]

We’re not talking about mere assent to God’s existence. That’s not saving faith, in terms of human beings.

Jon

I agree with you and when I initially wrote that I had a false interpretation of your post.

Sorry.