Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

[SteveVH]

I’m glad you cleared that up but now how do you justify the Doctrine of Faith alone… After all your own words, " the sanctification process or journey as a Christian is based on synergism (God and man)."

You took the words right out of my mouth. Synergism or monergism, Paul is speaking of salvation and he is certainly not presuming it. Elsewhere he speaks of his fear of teaching the Gospel while coming up short himself.

 

[Azygos]

Sola Fide was never based on easy believism because those who were justified by faith alone will be transformed to the image of Christ based on the transforming and sustaining grace of God which works powerfully in those who are in Christ. When an elect of God who is in Christ drifts and falls back into sin, God will chastise or discipline those who are His.

So Faith Alone is not simply having Faith (Believing/Professing Faith) for justification? You also said that God will chastise those who are his but what about those who fall away from grace completely… No eternal assurance of salvation… You might want to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[SteveVH]

Sola Fide was never based on easy believism because those who were justified by faith alone will be transformed to the image of Christ based on the transforming and sustaining grace of God which works powerfully in those who are in Christ. When an elect of God who is in Christ drifts and falls back into sin, God will chastise or discipline those who are His.

Did he create some who were destined to hell from their conception? Did he die only for some? I think you are very confused on this issue.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Did he create some who were destined to hell from their conception? Did he die only for some? I think you are very confused on this issue.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Rom 9

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:

That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?
You answer, “Because of unbelief.”

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

 

[Azygos]

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Rom 9

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:

That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?
You answer, “Because of unbelief.”

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

**He did die for the sins of all men but he also requires all men to repent… which ironically is an action/work.

Acts 17:30
30 God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now he demands that all people everywhere repent**

 

[Christian_Unity]

**He did die for the sins of all men but he also requires all men to repent… which ironically is an action/work.

Acts 17:30
30 God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now he demands that all people everywhere repent**

How do you understand Acts 17:30?

 

[Azygos]

How do you understand Acts 17:30?

**Christ died for all of our sins but if we choose not to accept the free gift of salvation when he offers it to us then we will die in our sins (John 8:23-24)… (With the exceptions of, Invincible Ignorance or people that have never heard the gospel, Luke 23:34 - “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”).

God has intertwined our Free Will with his gift of salvation. We our saved by the grace of God and he chooses us (he also wills all people to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of truth) but if we refuse to co-operate with his grace then we cannot receive the free gift of salvation. If someone offers you a gift and you refuse it then you will not have that gift, obviously. It is that simple.

By receiving this gift and then refusing to co-operate with it you are essentially, giving the free gift of salvation back to God which means their is no longer a sacrifice for your sins (Hebrews 10:26-27). If you receive this gift and put it away (hide it) then you are not utilizing the grace God has gifted to you thus you will lose your salvation (Matthew 25:31-46, also see falling from grace post and Revelations 3:2-5,15-16 below). **

Revelations 3:15-16
15 "I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. 16 So, **because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. **

Revelations 3:2-5
2 Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. 5 The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26** If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins** 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

John 8:23-24
23 He said to them, "You belong to what is below, I belong to what is above. You belong to this world, but I do not belong to this world.

24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins.** For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."**

 

[SteveVH]

That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, “Because of unbelief.”

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Scripture makes it quite clear that Christ “died once, for all”. Yes, Christ suffered the punishment due for all sin. That is called “redemption”. His suffering and death opened the gates of heaven for all people. Some reject the grace that God wishes to pour out on them, even after first accepting it. But this is of their own doing. God did not create a class of damned people and a class of saved people.

 

[GaryTaylor]

socrates58.blogspot.com/2010/01/monergism-as-characteristic-of-initial.html

“Wherefore faith itself, even when it does not work by charity [Gal 5:6], is in itself a gift of God, and the act of faith is a work pertaining to salvation, by which man yields voluntary obedience to God Himself, by assenting to and cooperating with His grace, which he is able to resist (can. v).” Trent

Similar to Augustine, which I posted earlier.

"The terminology of men “earning salvation” is false if by it we mean Pelagianism or works-salvation. It is true in terms of cooperative merit. God gives us the grace to participate and work together with Him. Merit is God crowning His own gifts, as Augustine says. He wants us to participate, but it is all by grace and never without it.

Entirely biblical . . . but many Protestants can’t grasp this because they are in bondage to “either/or” unbiblical thinking and inability to grasp biblical paradox. Protestantism (but especially Calvinism) is shot-through with this annoying deficiency."

Your Works are your obedience to Gods Grace in “cooperation”. This is what the Bible is speaking on. Revelations 20… Judged by their Works in the Book of Life!

Augustine rejected Faith Alone. “Faith and Works” also in Retractions pg 199

 

[wittgenstein]

Faith without works is like someone saying that they love their wife,but never do anything for her. No good deeds is proof that there is no faith.

 

[ffg]

It must be tough not to know your eternal destiny because nobody is able to obey the will of the Father perfectly with the exception of Jesus.

This sums up perfectly the motivating factor of why we need not just exist on this world, but live good lives.

Those that are given much (teaching in Truth), much is to be expected. Or, heavy might be the consequences for rejecting Truth for your own interpretation.

Those that know God and have the blessing to know where to look in order to learn **and follow **His teachings through Jesus (and the Church He created), should practice what is taught to the best of their ability.

Of course nobody knows their destiny, nobody knows their future thought until it comes to them in the next moment. If we did, some might think twice about stepping in front of a bus today.

What we can know and act on are the instructions from God, focussing on the result is worrying about what we can’t control.

 

[Christian_Unity]

This sums up perfectly the motivating factor of why we need not just exist on this world, but live good lives.

Those that are given much (teaching in Truth), much is to be expected. Or, heavy might be the consequences for rejecting Truth for your own interpretation.

Those that know God and have the blessing to know where to look in order to learn **and follow **His teachings through Jesus (and the Church He created), should practice what is taught to the best of their ability.

Of course nobody knows their destiny, nobody knows their future thought until it comes to them in the next moment. If we did, some might think twice about stepping in front of a bus today.

What we can know and act on are the instructions from God, focussing on the result is worrying about what we can’t control.

It’s simply a matter of theology. If our theology is grounded in Sacred Scripture alone, you can have assurance to know that you are an eternal adopted child of God on the basis of what Jesus Christ did in His perfect life and sacrificial death on behalf of those who believe. Our confidence and assurance is never inward in how we perform or obey, rather our confidence and assurance is what Jesus Christ accomplished on our behalf.

 

[joe370]

Faith alone is equivalent to Spiritual alone. We don’t live solely in a Spiritual Reality, our Reality is Spiritual and Physical. If Faith alone is sufficient then why must we do the Physical act of Praying or Repenting? Faith alone drawn down to its natural conclusion simply means No Physical acts, No Prayer, No Repentance, are needed for Salvation. Which also means no Physical acts can cause one to lose salvation, including mass murder. Faith alone is essentially nothing, without meaning, Void of Life or Dead. For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

Is Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing? :whacky:

If faith is all that is required for salvation (something demons have - “and they tremble in terror…”) then one’s works is pointless and in no way beneficial to anyone. I would like to believe that most Catholics and non-Catholics embrace both faith and works. Surely one’s salvation can still be lost, in spite of one’s faith, if they believe what saint Paul tells us in holy Scripture.

If Christianity is a faith-alone based religion then my question continues to be, for those advocates, why must I do the following:

“Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.”

 

[Azygos]

It’s simply a matter of theology. If our theology is grounded in Sacred Scripture alone, you can have assurance to know that you are an eternal adopted child of God on the basis of what Jesus Christ did in His perfect life and sacrificial death on behalf of those who believe. Our confidence and assurance is never inward in how we perform or obey, rather our confidence and assurance is what Jesus Christ accomplished on our behalf.

Even if you could have eternal assurance of salvation (which is anti-scripture)…
How would you know that you have received eternal assurance? (Just a thought)

Now let me pose a hypothetical story to you.
Suppose a man made a profession of faith at age 20 and lived out his faith until he was 80 years old. He was involved in the Church, gave to charity frequently and preached the word of God converting many people. Then he had an ongoing horrendous affair and became an adulterer before he got a chance to repent of his adultery he, Died. Now, the Bible says that adulterers do not inherit heaven (1 Cor. 6:9). So then this man would not inherit heaven because he was an adulterer when he died.
**
This leads to my questions,**
Now for those 60 years this man lived out his professed faith (good works and all) did he have eternal assurance? Or, did he not have eternal assurance? If he was eternally a child of God then how do you explain him losing his eternal salvation?

It’s not eternal assurance if you can lose your eternal salvation, is it?

 

[joe370]

ltwin
Faith is a gift of God. Faith comes by the agency of the word of God and the Holy Spirit (Romans 10:17; John 5:24)

A catholic belief.

Repentance is a gift of divine grace. The kindness of God leads us toward repentance (Romans 2:4). It comes from the word of God and the Spirit of God acting on the mind, will, and emotions. The individual is convinced of sin, becomes filled with Godly sorrow, and is renewed so that he turns from sin and seeks to live a life of obedience to God.

Obeying God via His church or via His Bible via private/individual discernment?

This act of God’s grace is an experience of faith. Repentance is not a one time thing but the way of life for a Christian, which God’s grace enables us to live: “My grace is sufficient for you” (2 Cor. 12:9). Through the power of the Holy Spirit, continuing to walk in faith, strengthening our spiritual core by partaking in all and any means of grace (works of piety and works of mercy) that God provides, we can continue to overcome sin and carnality.

It never ends until we take our last breath.

Justification is a work of grace and a judicial act of God where He remits the believer’s sin and declares him righteous. The sole basis for this declaration and transference of righteousness is the obedience of Christ (who fulfilled all righteousness and was crucified for us, shedding his blood and making atonement for us). Christ’s righteousness is transferred to the believer, freeing him from judgment and giving him the benefit of Christ’s full merit. The only instrument for receiving this divine grace is faith in Jesus Christ.

No church needed; just faith in Jesus i.e. graces are not transmitted via Jesus’ church?

We are justified by grace alone through faith alone.

True. However, faith without works is dead.

God adopts the believer as a son or daughter. God goes on to transform the believer so that he becomes a partaker in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), and God’s love is shed abroad in his heart by the Spirit (Romans 5:5). He is born again in a creative act of God’s grace, again through faith (which comes by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit). The evidence for this transformation is the love of God shed abroad in the heart, the manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit, and the rejection of a life of sin.

Well said.

Sanctification is a work of grace. It is provided for by the blood of Christ’s atonement. The flesh is crucified and unrighteousness is purged from the believer. In sanctification, the graces planted within the believer in the new birth are released. The pursuit of holiness is the normal lifestyle for a believer.

This is all contrary to how you characterized “faith alone” above.

It is not all contrary…Many non-Catholics, do not agree with you! Many believe that one’s works are pointless; many believe that salvation cannot be lost, once one embraces faith in Jesus. See post 5 as an example!

 

[Azygos]

No church needed; just faith in Jesus i.e. graces are not transmitted via Jesus’ church?

Graces are transmitted via Jesus Church (The Catholic Church). This is the teachings of the Catholic Church which is the Body of Christ. The Sacraments give us grace. Take Baptism for example. Baptism is one of the only sacraments that is valid outside the Catholic Church, besides Marriage. When a person is Baptized outside the Catholic Church (if done correctly) they are given the Holy Spirit (So that they can be saved) and they are baptized into the Body of Christ which is the Catholic Church. All Christians are members of the Catholic Church even if only separated and partial members (Unless they spiritually excommunicate themselves)… This is why they are our separated brethren and we are waiting for them to come home.

I am deeply disconcerted that you are a Catholic and you don’t think grace comes from the Body of Christ which is the Catholic Church… Every-time we receive Jesus in the Sacrament of the Eucharist we are receiving grace… Every-time we give a confession we are receiving grace… You need to read the catechism on these issues… You are Catholic and you don’t know your faith…

Here is a free one.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

 

[Azygos]

No church needed; just faith in Jesus i.e. graces are not transmitted via Jesus’ church?

**
John Chapter 6 (The Eucharist, in the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ)**
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, **you do not have life within you.
**
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is** true food**, and my blood is **true drink.
**
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

 

[joe370]

Graces are transmitted via Jesus Church (The Catholic Church). This is the teachings of the Catholic Church which is the Body of Christ. The Sacraments give us grace. Take Baptism for example. Baptism is one of the only sacraments that is valid outside the Catholic Church, besides Marriage. When a person is Baptized outside the Catholic Church (if done correctly) they are given the Holy Spirit (So that they can be saved) and they are baptized into the Body of Christ which is the Catholic Church. All Christians are members of the Catholic Church even if only separated and partial members (Unless they spiritually excommunicate themselves)… This is why they are our separated brethren and we are waiting for them to come home.

I am deeply disconcerted that you are a Catholic and you don’t think grace comes from the Body of Christ which is the Catholic Church… Every-time we receive Jesus in the Sacrament of the Eucharist we are receiving grace… Every-time we give a confession we are receiving grace… You need to read the catechism on these issues… You are Catholic and you don’t know your faith…

Here is a free one.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

You misunderstood my intentions friend.** I agree with everything that you have said**! As a former non-catholic I always ask non-Catholics (in this case - Pentecostal) these questions.

 

[joe370]

**
John Chapter 6 (The Eucharist, in the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ)**
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, **you do not have life within you.
**
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is** true food**, and my blood is **true drink.
**
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

Amen brother!!! For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself

 

[Azygos]

You misunderstood my intentions friend.** I agree with everything that you have said**! As a former non-catholic I always ask non-Catholics (in this case - Pentecostal) these questions.

Sorry. I did misunderstand you.

My bad!