Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

[SteveVH]

It’s simply a matter of theology. If our theology is grounded in Sacred Scripture alone, you can have assurance to know that you are an eternal adopted child of God on the basis of what Jesus Christ did in His perfect life and sacrificial death on behalf of those who believe.

Well, apparently it is not just a matter of simple theology because the original Church, you know, the one that discerned the Bible and gave it to the world, disagrees with you. This is one of the most dangerous religious philosophies one could believe. It is the sin of presumption and places one in the position of non-repentence for even serious sin. I don’t know how you just ignore Paul’s words that one must work out their dalvation in fear and trembling and the myriad of other verses that contradict this OSAS notion.

 

[ltwin]

Obeying God via His church or via His Bible via private/individual discernment?

Both, if we’re talking about the individual. The Bible is an authoritative measuring rod of the faith, and the church has a responsibility to interpret and teach it, hold its members accountable to it, draw standards of discipline from it, and test all spiritual manifestations by it.

No church needed; just faith in Jesus i.e. graces are not transmitted via Jesus’ church?

One of the two agents of faith is the Word of God. How will anyone hear the word and then believe if they have never heard the Word of God preached in power? Outside of a direct revelation of God’s Word, that cannot happen without the church.

Of course, many times this happens in church, but other times it happens outside the church in evangelistic ministries. It is the responsibility of the people who have reached a convert to make sure that they have adequate direction to a church.

Once a person, by Word and Spirit, has truly repented of sin the individual is justified by grace through faith. In that sense, the church is truly an instrument of God’s grace. However, this gift of faith need not be transmitted through any act of baptism or other means that the church might have. On the contrary to have an affect, a means of grace must be accompanied by a faith that moves one to repent.

When baptism, communion, Bible study, corporate prayer and worship, private prayer and worship, Christian fellowship, good works and acts of love/mercy/love/charity, and other acts of piety are accompanied by this faith that moves one to repent (in other words saving faith) then they truly become ways in which God works invisibly in us to quicken, strengthen and confirm our faith. They are means of grace.

There are communal (church) and individual elements to all this, but even the individual elements flow from proper formation of one’s faith by the church. So, yes the church is very much necessary in discipling and forming Christians and giving them the means to strengthen and confirm their faith,

True. However, faith without works is dead.

True. A faith that does not move me to repent or to do the things that Jesus did is worthless.

It is not all contrary…Many non-Catholics, do not agree with you! Many believe that one’s works are pointless; many believe that salvation cannot be lost, once one embraces faith in Jesus. See post 5 as an example!

Many non-Catholics do agree with me, though.

I’ve read post 5, and I was saddened by it. Such a faith is foreign to me. I’m always confessing my sins to God and praying penitential prayers. I’m not perfect, but God’s grace is sufficient. I would never think about having unconfessed sin in my life. That is dangerous!!!

 

[BA11]

Are you saved by Faith Alone?

Yes or No?

A TRUE faith in the free gift of salvation, yes. The problem is that many catholics set up this strawman caricature of faith and thrust that label onto all protestants. A true follower of Christ doesn’t believe they have a “free pass to sin” or that true grace allows for such a blatant rejection of God’s will.

I sin, if only in my thoughts, every day. I think impure and sinful thoughts, I get angry with others at times and have doubts about God’s will. At the end of the day though, I am reconciled with him through faith in Christ’s death and because of this I feel hatred towards my sin and have no desire whatsoever to live in open and intentional defience of his will and law. Once upon a time I did, and I did not have anything resembling a true saving faith. Am I tempted at times to go back into my life of sin? Yes, but I no longer have a deep-seeded desire for my sin like I used to.

Does a prayer during the alter call save you? No, not in and of itself. Saying you believe doesnt mean anything. Knowing the gospel as fact doesnt save you. aving a TRUE faith and acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice is the message of the gospel.

 

[truthquester]

You guys are not staying on topic. You are trying to define Salvation by Faith Alone as other things that are not by Faith Alone by adding to the doctrine of Faith Alone.

In order to continue this conversation I must ask the all you protestants a Yes or No, question.

Are you saved by Faith Alone?

Yes or No?

Here is a straight answer. It is not my faith or works that has saved me, it is Gods love that has done so.

 

[Publisher]

**"In order to continue this conversation I must ask the all you protestants a Yes or No, question.

Are you saved by Faith Alone?

Yes or No?"**

Perhaps it would be easy to answer if the definiton of “faith”…“pistis” was understood better by Catholics as understood my Protestants on the matter of "faith alone’.

I am savef by faith alone YES…absolutely…it is only by the grace of God thru Christ by fiath that I am saved…not by my works in any shape or form.

I do good works, not to “receive grace” but because I am a new creation in Christ…I have taken on His nature…I do good works not to be “saved” but because being in Christ I can do nothing less if I exercise faith in His work alone…in obedience to my new nature and seeking to “have this mind of Christ” in me so that “it is not I that live but Christ who lives within me” any “good work” I do is becuase of Him…not me…He and He alone saves me…it is by grace…astounding magnificent unfathomable endless grace I have acess to thru faith that saves me. Not a book…not belonging to a church body or tradition…I am a member of His Church by fiath in Him…so how can the Church save us when WE are The Church? It is Christ who “saves” The Church" and baptizes me into it by His Spirit…through which I take on the divine nature…His Nature is at work within me…it is He who does the good works in us…and by putting on Christ and having our “old man” crucified thru faith in Him we are sanctified…it is not my good works that sanctifies me…but I am sanctified by the work and merits of Christ who lives within me.

It is He and He alone who “saves” us by grace thru faith. No work I do could ever satify the holiness of God to “save me”…I am “saved” by Him…it is all His work by grace thru faith(pistis).

 

[truthquester]

I think you have over-thinking.

 

[Publisher]

I think you have over-thinking.

LOL…that’s one thing I’ve not been accused of before. At least not that I can remember…but there’s a “first” for everything I guess.

 

[joe370]

Many non-Catholics do agree with me, though.

True. Some agree with you just as many do not. Some agree with me just as many do not. Who is right and who is wrong - is simply not answerable within protestantism. When 2 people, or groups of people, within the protestant sphere, disagree there is no way to resolve the matter once, and for all. Agreed? if not then please expound in detail…

 

[SteveVH]

Perhaps it would be easy to answer if the definiton of “faith”…“pistis” was understood better by Catholics as understood my Protestants on the matter of "faith alone’.

I am savef by faith alone YES…absolutely…it is only by the grace of God thru Christ by fiath that I am saved…not by my works in any shape or form.

What you are really saying is that you are saved by grace alone. That is different than faith alone. As a matter of fact, that is the Catholic position

so how can the Church save us when WE are The Church?

Because it is Christ’s Church; he is the head and we are the body. The entire purpose of Christ’s Church is to save us. He welcomes us in through Baptism and feeds us with his body and blood and forgives us and annoints us all in his Church. I think this is the saddest consequence of the “reformation”. All that Christ’s Church had to offer was rejected except our Holy Book. Most non-Catholics have no idea of the saving power of the sacraments. The Church is salvation, properly speaking.

 

[Publisher]

What you are really saying is that you are saved by grace alone. That is different than faith alone. As a matter of fact, that is the Catholic position

Because it is Christ’s Church; he is the head and we are the body. The entire purpose of Christ’s Church is to save us. He welcomes us in through Baptism and feeds us with his body and blood and forgives us and annoints us all in his Church. I think this is the saddest consequence of the “reformation”. All that Christ’s Church had to offer was rejected except our Holy Book. Most non-Catholics have no idea of the saving power of the sacraments. The Church is salvation, properly speaking.

While I am certain you find the rites and rituals of your own faith tradition “efficacious”…the reverse is also true…most Catholics will never know the absolute profound “saving power” of trusting in Christ alone.

 

[joe370]

SteveVH;10423900]What you are really saying is that you are saved by grace alone. That is different than faith alone. As a matter of fact, that is the Catholic position

Because it is Christ’s Church; he is the head and we are the body. The entire purpose of Christ’s Church is to save us. He welcomes us in through Baptism and feeds us with his body and blood and forgives us and annoints us all in his Church. I think this is the saddest consequence of the “reformation”. All that Christ’s Church had to offer was rejected except our Holy Book. Most non-Catholics have no idea of the saving power of the sacraments. The Church is salvation, properly speaking.

:sad_yes:

 

[Azygos]

However, this gift of faith need not be transmitted through any act of baptism or other means that the church might have. On the contrary to have an affect, a means of grace must be accompanied by a faith that moves one to repent.

Baptism is absolutely necessary for Salvation.

1 Peter 3:20-21
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. (<- Typology) 21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, (<- Seriously, serious) I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit (Baptism).

The Thief is on the Cross is thee exception to the set standard and God does not need to use Baptism by water to save anyone; all he has to do is will it and it is so. Baptism (Water & Spirit) is the standard for salvation (Along with Faith/Repentance) as established by Jesus Christ and confirmed by the Bible. Using common sense and Theology one can discover that there are 3 types of Baptisms with the first one being the standard. Baptism by Water and Spirit (The Standard), Baptism by Desire (A Person Desires to get baptized but dies before they get a chance comparable to the Thief on the cross, laziness does not count…) and Baptism by Blood (A person is martyred for Christ before they get a chance to be baptized).

Baptism gifts you the Holy Spirit (commonly know as Regeneration)
Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is made to you and to your children (Infant Baptism) and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

John 1:32-33
32 John testified further, saying, "I saw the Spirit come down like a dove from the sky and remain upon him. 33 I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

Galatians 3:27-28
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have **clothed yourselves with Christ.
**

Titus 3:5
5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he **saved us through the bath of rebirth (Baptism) and renewal (Regeneration) by the Holy Spirit,
**

 

[BA11]

Most historians and theologians agree that “being born of water and the spirit” is a poorly translatedway of saying “being born of your mother (physical birth) and the spirit”.

The bible commands us to be baptized, but that verse specifically is often misused. It’s merely saying two “births” are required, one physical and one spiritual. Even if baptism does save us, that baptism would qualify as “spiritual” birth and thus rendering such a comment, at face value, redundant.

 

[Azygos]

Most historians and theologians agree that “being born of water and the spirit” is a poorly translatedway of saying “being born of your mother (physical birth) and the spirit”.

The bible commands us to be baptized, but that verse specifically is often misused. It’s merely saying two “births” are required, one physical and one spiritual. Even if baptism does save us, that baptism would qualify as “spiritual” birth and thus rendering such a comment, at face value, redundant.

Most historians and theologians would be wrong besides the fact that your making an ad populum argument or an argument from authority. I’m not really sure what kind of argument you are making but is is pure speculation and even if it was so they would be dead wrong.

Lets put the verse in context…

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.

7 Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’

Clearly not talking about being born by your mother (physical, what is born of flesh is flesh). This is talking about being born of Water and Spirit, which is Baptism (what is born of spirit is spirit).

Your interpretation is saying that you don’t need baptism. This is obviously a forced interpretation because saved by baptism does not fit into your theology.

 

[Azygos]

The problem is that many catholics set up this strawman caricature of faith and thrust that label onto all protestants.

When I asked if you are saved by Faith Alone it is because most if not all Protestants believed they are saved by Faith Alone. Do you deny that you are saved by Faith Alone? Or is saying that you are Saved by Faith Alone a caricature of how you are saved? If you are going to say more is required than Faith Alone then you are obviously NOT Saved by Faith Alone.

So I will ask again.

Are you Saved by Faith Alone?

Yes or No?

 

[Azygos]

Here is a straight answer. It is not my faith or works that has saved me, it is Gods love that has done so.

It is Gods Love (The free gift of Salvation/Grace) that makes Faith and Works (Faith in Action) possible, which are Both required to receive and maintain the free gift of Grace. Not by Faith Alone… Faith Alone is essentially nothing without Repentance because Repentance is an ACTION/WORK. If Repentance is a MANDATORY WORK/ACTION for Salvation then we are NOT Saved by Faith Alone.

 

[BA11]

When I asked if you are saved by Faith Alone it is because most if not all Protestants believed they are saved by Faith Alone. Do you deny that you are saved by Faith Alone? Or is saying that you are Saved by Faith Alone a caricature of how you are saved? If you are going to say more is required than Faith Alone then you are obviously NOT Saved by Faith Alone.

So I will ask again.

Are you Saved by Faith Alone?

Yes or No?

Yes, I believe we are saved by faith through grace alone. I do not believe we are saved by the “sinner’s prayer” type of faith many catholics believe we define that doctrine by.

Once you truly believe and accept that Christ is the only way you can be saved (and by true I mean coming him to him with a honest repentent heart realizing that you are powerless yourself) I believe you are saved by grace.

 

[Azygos]

Yes, I believe we are saved by faith through grace alone. I do not believe we are saved by the “sinner’s prayer” type of faith many catholics believe we define that doctrine by.

Once you truly believe and accept that Christ is the only way you can be saved (and by true I mean coming him to him with a honest repentent heart realizing that you are powerless yourself) I believe you are saved by grace.

Faith Alone or Grace Alone?

Those are TWO different theologies.

 

[BA11]

It is Gods Love (The free gift of Salvation/Grace) that makes Faith and Works (Faith in Action) possible, which are Both required to receive and maintain the free gift of Grace. Not by Faith Alone… Faith Alone is essentially nothing without Repentance because Repentance is an ACTION/WORK. If Repentance is a MANDATORY WORK/ACTION for Salvation then we are NOT Saved by Faith Alone.

The core difference between our beliefs is not the nature of faith but the nature of repentance. I believe repentance is the realization that you are a wicked sinner and unfit for the kingdom and coming to Christ with the knowledge that nothing but his grace can fix you. Repentance isnt a price we pay, it’s a forgiveness we seek. I believe that a true believer will in turn be driven by their love for Christ to love, help and obey, but those actions are the result of a repentant faith.

 

[BA11]

Faith Alone or Grace Alone?

Those are TWO different theologies.

I disagree. God’s grace is always there, free to be accepted or rejected. By our FAITH we accept HIS gift of grace. Without faith, God’s grace cannot be received. His grace isnt automatically imparted onto us.