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Azygos
Guest
‘Accepting’ is an Action/Work. So you are obviously saved by Grace through Faith and Works/Actions of Faith, NOT by Faith Alone. Thank you for clarifying that for me.
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Azygos
Guest
Are those actions (repentance, etc) required to receive and maintain the free gift of salvation?
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Now you said most. That means 51% or more… so please start naming them:
We’ll start with 10 at a time, please include the reference to where they state your claim.
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ltwin
Guest
The problem is that you are applying your meaning to “Faith Alone”, a meaning that Protestants do not have. You are intentionally using a dumbed down version of Sola Fide. Instead of trying to force Protestants to reject what you say Faith Alone is or “explain” how Sola Fide is a caricature of what they really believe:
Why don’t you ask Protestants what Sola Fide means to them and then you could argue it on the merits.
The answer to your question for me is that I am saved by God’s grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Grace alone: God’s grace goes before and throughout salvation.
Faith alone: Faith is the indispensable conduit for receiving the saving grace of God. This is true faith, which leads to repentance and a desire to pursue holiness.
Christ alone: Our faith is in Christ’s work (His atonement and victory for us).
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Third_Day
Guest
Isn’t repentance and confessing your sins also necessary along with faith?
You are correct. TRUE faith leads to repentance which is NECESSARY to be saved. Therefore you are not saved by faith alone
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Faith alone has one meaning and you can find it on James 2:24.
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jrtrent
Guest
It is not a question of faith or grace, but of both; they are not two different theologies, but work together as one. Itwin pointed out to you in post number 2 that faith alone is not the only “sola”; these do not stand alone, but together help define reformed theology.
Here’s an excerpt from the Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord:
9] Concerning the righteousness of faith before God we believe, teach, and confess unanimously, in accordance with the comprehensive summary of our faith and confession presented above, that poor sinful man is justified before God, that is, absolved and declared free and exempt from all his sins, and from the sentence of well-deserved condemnation, and adopted into sonship and heirship of eternal life, without any merit or worth of our own, also without any preceding, present, or any subsequent works, out of pure grace, because of the sole merit, complete obedience, bitter suffering, death, and resurrection of our Lord Christ alone, whose obedience is reckoned to us for righteousness.
10] These treasures are offered us by the Holy Ghost in the promise of the holy Gospel; and faith alone is the only means by which we lay hold upon, accept, and apply, and appropriate them to ourselves. 11] This faith is a gift of God, by which we truly learn to know Christ, our Redeemer, in the Word of the Gospel, and trust in Him, that for the sake of His obedience alone we have the forgiveness of sins by grace, are regarded as godly and righteous by God the father, and are eternally saved. bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.php#para12
Here you see that sinful man is justified before God by grace alone, without any merit or worth of his own. This justification by grace is extended to sinful man because of Christ alone; it is by His work, His obedience, His suffering, death, and resurrection, that we can be justified, not by any merit or worth of our own. Here we also see that faith alone is the means by which we accept and apply to ourselves the benefits gained for us by Christ, and even this faith is not something meritorious in us, but is itself a gift of God. So just in the doctrine of justification we see sola gratia, sola Christus, and sola fide, not three different theologies, but one theology, rightly understood.
Another point brought up in this thread is that salvation is more than just justification. I provided a link to a systematic theology by Boyce that has chapters that go into some detail about some of the different aspects of salvation, but here is an excerpt from a short article that might help.
Of the various descriptions of salvation in Reformed theology, ordo salutis, order of salvation, is the earliest. The purpose of the ordo is to list the events in the life of every saved person that join him to Christ. Typically, the list of events looks like this: effectual calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, glorification. In effectual calling, God summons the elect person out of sin and into union with Christ. This gives him a new spiritual birth, a new heart, or regeneration. That regenerate heart enables the redeemed person to believe or trust in Christ (faith) and to repent of sin. Repentance is the opposite side of the coin from faith. Faith is turning to Christ, repentance turning away from sin, and you can’t do the one without doing the other. Justification, God’s imputation to us of Christ’s righteousness, is by faith, so it follows faith and repentance in the ordo. Those whom God justifies, he adopts into his family. Then there is sanctification, which means both that we are separated from the sphere of the world into the sphere of God’s kingdom (“definitive sanctification”), and also that we become progressively more and more holy by the work of the Spirit within us (“progressive sanctification”). This new life within enables us to persevere in faith and love, until the consummation of all things when our glorification is complete. frame-poythress.org/salvation-and-theological-pedagogy/#
The author of that article goes on to say that even the ordo is not the totality of the doctrine of salvation, but is a useful teaching tool–he said that when he studied the ordo salutis with John Murray (author of Redemption Accomplished and Applied), “all sorts of lights went on, all sorts of strands in Scripture got connected for me.” When I attended a Baptist church, the pastor there included Murray’s book as one of those that he said should be in every Christian home. I should probably pull it off the shelf and re-read it myself.
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joe370
Guest
True. Again, I ask:
Some agree with you just as many do not. Some agree with me just as many do not. Who is right and who is wrong - is simply not answerable within protestantism. When 2 people, or groups of people, within the protestant sphere, disagree there is no way to resolve the matter once, and for all e.g. the preceding discussion on faith, something protestants and catholics, evidently, cannot agree on, if you are correct, and I think you are. Agreed?
Sacred scripture alone (minus people that is…) cannot resolve anything. In your opinion, did Jesus leave His church with a way to resolve these differences?
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Third_Day
Guest
Catholics agree that we are justified by grace alone. Our good works are not our own, they are works of grace.
Catholics agree. Works are gifts of grace they are not our own
Yes faith is a gift of God and works are also a gift of God. It all grace. Faith and works
Sorry but Protestants do not righty understand. They think our works are “natural” works when they are in fact “super-natural” works
I haven’t read this entire post but how do you deal with James 2: 24? The example that James give us (Abraham sacrificing Isaac) proves we are justified by works in the eyes of God.
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joe370
Guest
As a former protestant I had often asked myself: why the need for reformed theology? Did Jesus fail, in terms of guiding His church and safeguarding truth thereby necessitating the need for some person outside His church to come along and introduce reformed theology?
If that is the case then who, and when, and were they too guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth, as per John 16:13?
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jrtrent
Guest
When you read the rest of the post, you will see that Protestants are not denying that regeneration, repentance, sanctification, and perseverance are also part of salvation.
As to James 2:24, I understand it as John Gill does. Below is a brief part of his commentary.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,… Not as causes procuring his justification, but as effects declaring it; for the best works are imperfect, and cannot be a righteousness justifying in the sight of God, and are unprofitable in this respect; for when they are performed in the best manner, they are no other than what it is a man’s duty to perform, and therefore cannot justify from sin he has committed: and besides, justification in this sense would frustrate the grace of God, make void the death of Christ, and encourage boasting in men. Good works do not go before justification as causes or conditions, but follow it as fruits and effects: bible.cc/james/2-24.htm
If we back up to verse 18, we see James saying, "But someone will say, ‘One person has faith, another has actions.’ My answer is, ‘Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions.’ " Gill’s explanation that works don’t cause but rather declare a person’s justification seems reasonable in this context. James drove home the point repeatedly in verses 14 to 26 that faith without works is dead, that faith is completed in works. James said Abraham was justified by his works when offering up Isaac, yet he also said Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. I think Gill’s explanation harmonizes James well with other passages such as Ephesians 2:8-10:
“Yes, it was grace that saved you, with faith for its instrument; it did not come from yourselves, it was God’s gift, not from any action of yours, or there would be room for pride. No, we are his design; God has created us in Christ Jesus, pledged to such good actions as he has prepared beforehand, to be the employment of our lives.” (Knox Bible)
Salvation is wholly a gift from God, not from any actions we do, yet as a result of this gift, we are to be employed in such good actions as He puts us to.
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Azygos
Guest
There are several problems here. Faith and Grace are two different things. Sola Faith and Sola Grace are definitely two different things. Wouldn’t it be quite circular if they mean the same thing (I agree they work together but I am making a point)? Especially considering it says in Ephesians that we are saved by grace through faith. It does not say we are saved by faith through faith or by grace through grace. I just wanted to clarify this…
Faith Alone is not the only Sola? Why call it Faith Alone then? Isn’t that the whole meaning of Sola Fide? Justification by ‘Faith Alone’…?
If Faith Alone is not justification by Faith Alone then Faith Alone is False. If Faith Alone is not the only Sola then Justification cannot be called by Sola Faith because it is not Sola anymore.
You guys keep telling me I don’t understand Faith Alone but I understand it perfectly. It means Justified by Faith Alone, if you add to this then it is not by Faith Alone. Such as adding the Physical Work/Action of Repentance. If Repentance (A Work) is required for Justification then Faith Alone is False because you are not justified by Faith Alone (Sola).
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Azygos
Guest
**
James 2:24
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. **
Are you being honest with yourself… OR… Are you trying to save the False notion of Justification by Faith Alone which is in direct contradiction to the Sacred Scriptures? How can you argue with God?
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joe370
Guest
Faith alone? Of course. Faith alone without works, however, doesn’t necessarily mean that one will make it to our eternal home, for** “faith without works is dead” **- right?
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."
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jrtrent
Guest
The hour has grown late for me, but Alister McGrath has a good article entitled “The State of the Church Before the Reformation.” It might answer your questions, or remind you of things you had been taught when you were a Protestant.
modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=750&var3=main
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Azygos
Guest
Why change the subject? Because you cannot justify this direct contradiction to scripture?
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Azygos
Guest
I agree. I’m afraid our separated brethren cannot give up Justification by Faith Alone even though it is in direct contradiction to God (Sacred Scriptures). To do this would be to admit that Martin Luther was wrong and all of Protestantism falls apart…
It’s no mystery why Martin Luther called the Book of James an Epistle of Straw…
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joe370
Guest
Strange. Like you mentioned: it is right out of sacred scripture word for word. It seems so cut and dried…
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jrtrent
Guest
If this is your conclusion after the explanations given and the resources pointed out to you for further information, perhaps you are caught in the mental condition of willful ignorance. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, because sometimes we need that insulation, but I can see that any further attempts at explanation on my part would be fruitless.
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Azygos
Guest
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