Its the Luheran side, too. From the Formula of Concord
One cannot retain saving fiath if one intentionally perseveres in sins.
Jon
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Jon
It is alone by faith that justification is operable. It is by grace through faith that we come to justification. Grace through faith in Christ is what saves. True faith, however, is never alone.
Jon
Oh, absolutely!! Sanctification is growth in grace. With the guidance of the Spirit, aided by word and sacrament, there must be an inner change. We also recognize that the sacraments are there - Eucharist and Holy Absolution - to strengthen the sinner when he faulters.
Jon
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Third_Day
Guest
Since True faith is never alone then one cannot be saved by faith alone and the phrase salvation by faith alone is false.
Since works are necessary to qualify faith as a saving faith then something must be added to faith for one to be saved and again the Reformation cry of salvation by faith alone is false.
With scripture against them the Reformers had to adjust their cry to "“We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.”
James Akin seems to have an understanding of how our differing semantics and perspectives fit.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm
Jon
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm
Jon
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, sorry if I implied otherwise. The distinction is important in any case. We can’t possibly be saved without God and yet He won’t save us without us. Man’s cooperation/will plays a part in the process of justification. We can reject grace at any time along the way from the beginning of our justification all the way through our life and, it seems, if we’re not growing in justice with the grace, time, and opportunities we have, we probably won’t be able to even maintain the justice we’re initially given either.
And, BTW, the reason we can grow in justice is because our justice consists of love, and there’s simply no limit to the height or depth of love, because there’s no limit to the height or depth of God from whom all love issues.
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, and if there is no change we don’t enter heaven because ultimately no sinners may do so.
T
Third_Day
Guest
But scripture is against you. Paul never says what you are saying. Paul never uses the word faith and alone together.But then, scripture is not against us.
Jon
What do you do with James 2:24 “A man is justified by works.”
Is James saying we are justified by works before men or is James saying that we are justified by works before God?
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Publisher
Guest
Of course he didn’t…“faith” and “alone” are English translations…of Koine Greek…if we want to only use the words Paul used…throw out every translation and only use the Koine Greek…much like the Muslims do with the Qu’ran. The Holy Qu’ran is only the “Quran” when it is in Arabic…any thing else is a “commentary”.
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Third_Day
Guest
OK. In Greek Paul never used faith Pistis πίστις
and he never used alone monon μόνον together in the same sentence
Yet James said in Greek not by faith alone οὐ ἐκ πίστις μόνον in the same sentence
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ltwin
Guest
You can quote that proof text till Kingdom come, but I look at the entire context of the passage.
Because it is through faith we are justified. Works are a necessary consequence or result of having faith, but it is not through works that we are justified. On the contrary we are justified by grace through faith and out of faith comes works.
I have no idea. Let me ask you a question. How many works do you have to do to qualify to receive saving grace?
You’re entitled to your opinion.
Well, according to JonNC Luther didn’t teach that anyway. If he did though, it is no concern of mine since I’m not even Lutheran.
Justification is positional. It is based on our position in Christ, which is based on faith in Christ. If we have faith, we are justified. We don’t have faith, we are not justified.
I’ve no idea.
Like I said, it is positional.
Yes but without faith they are just works.
No. I’m saying James is saying that those who have faith will do good works. Faith will be manifested.
No, works do not justify us.
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jrtrent
Guest
The article JohnNC provided a link to above includes this:
“Catholic doctrine knows itself to be at one with the Protestant concern in emphasizing that the renewal of the human being does not contribute to justification, and is certainly not a contribution to which he could make any appeal before God. Nevertheless it feels compelled to stress the renewal of the human being through justifying grace, for the sake of acknowledging God’s newly creating power; although this renewal in faith, hope, and love is certainly nothing but a response to God’s unfathomable grace. Only if we observe this distinction can we say but we can then say in all truth: Catholic doctrine does not overlook what Protestant faith finds so important, and vice versa; and Catholic doctrine does not maintain what Protestant doctrine is afraid of, and vice versa.” ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm
There is historical reason for the way both sides chose to phrase things. Mr. Akin points out that for Catholics, the word “faith” meant mere intellectual assent, and that by that definition, even Protestants would reject the phrase faith alone. On the Protestant side, what they were combating was what was seen as a corruption of the gospel to the point that faith was almost entirely excluded in favor of meritorious works and the buying of indulgences. As Philip Schaff put it:
“Piety which should proceed from a living union of the soul with Christ and a consecration of character, was turned outward and reduced to a round of mechanical performances such as the recital of Paternosters and Avemarias, fasting, alms-giving, confession to the priest, and pilgrimage to a holy shrine. Good works were measured by the quantity rather than the quality, and vitiated by the principle of meritoriousness which appealed to the selfish motive of reward. Remission of sin could be bought with money; a shameful traffic in indulgences was carried on under the Pope’s sanction for filthy lucre as well as for the building of St. Peter’s Dome, and caused that outburst of moral indignation which was the beginning of the Reformation and of the fearful judgment on the Church of Rome.” ccel.org/s/schaff/history/7_ch01.htm
Even by the time of the Augsburg Confession in 1530, its article on Good Works was able to say, “4] Since our adversaries have been admonished of these things, they are now unlearning them, and do not preach these unprofitable works as heretofore. 5] Besides, they begin to mention faith, of which there was heretofore marvelous silence. 6] They teach that we are justified not by works only, but they conjoin faith and works, and say that we are justified by faith and works. 7] This doctrine is more tolerable than the former one, and can afford more consolation than their old doctrine.”
Mr. Akin pointed out that the Catholic understanding is that renewal of the human being does not contribute to justification, but is a response to God’s unfathomable grace. I think the Augsburg Confession said something very similar:
“27] Furthermore, it is taught on our part that it is necessary to do good works, not that we should trust to merit grace by them, but because it is the will of God. 28] It is only by faith that forgiveness of sins is apprehended, and that, for nothing. 29] And because through faith the Holy Ghost is received, hearts are renewed and endowed with new affections, so as to be able to bring forth good works.” bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article20
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fhansen
Guest
But, while we don’t merit forgiveness/justification to begin with, once lifted up we’re obliged to continue to work out our salvation-and this is a matter of our wills cooperating with grace, cooperating with God, apart from whom we can do nothing, and in this sense we do merit more grace as we respond to the grace already given. This is exactly where God wants us, in fact, and this is the message, for example, of the Parable of the Talents. This is a more accurate understanding of the gospel-and one that automatically excludes other such errors as OSAS BTW.
T
Third_Day
Guest
Please do look at it. It says we are justified by works.What does James mean by that?
Yes we are justified by grace but aren’t our good works also works of grace? God is the one giving us the grace to do good works just as He is giving us the grace to have faith.
Sorry but you need to answer the question. You are the one claiming that works are a consequence of faith that justifies. So how many works must you do to have justifying faith?
Where is “positional justification” found in scripture?
You have no idea of how many times Abraham was justified? Don’t you believe he was only justified once? If he was justified more than once that the Catholic position is correct, justification is a process.
Can you answer the question? It can’t be that difficult.
And where is that in scripture?
Absolutely! And WITH faith they are supernatural works and that is why works play a role in our justification. Keeping the commandments is a work.
Question: Can you be saved if you don’t keep the commandments?
Manifested for what purpose? So that God will see your good works or so that men will see your good works.
Then can you explain why James says we are justified by works?
Paul clearly places justification squarely on grace through faith. No where does he link any other means by which we are justified.
I think, however, James is responding to those who choose not to do good works, and calls into question their claim of justification. Paul does the same in Galatians.
It is a very important point, however, that Lutherans do recognize the necessity of good works, as are commanded by Christ.
The linked, TD, is an excellent (and short
) article regarding how Paul and James, while seemingly disagree, are actually in agreement.lutherantheologystudygroup.blogspot.com/2010/10/james-and-paul-on-justification-and.html#!/2010/10/james-and-paul-on-justification-and.html
Jon
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benjohnson
Guest
I don’t think it’s not only Itwin that is claiming this, If I’m reading this correctly so does the Catholic church as well - that works comes from a faith that justifies,
Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. VIII:
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, “without which it is impossible to please God” and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, “if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,” as the Apostle says, “grace is no more grace.”
Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. XVI:
Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: “Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name”; and “Do not lose confidence, which hath a great reward.” Hence, to those who work well “unto the end” and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Paul didn’t say “alone” 
I
Isaiah45_9
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Third_Day
Guest
Yes, works come from faith but once in the state of grace our good works are also justifying.
Notice that Trent says, “none of the things that precede justification, whether faith or works merit the grace of justification.”
After justification it’s a different ball game. We are then justified, as James says by “works and not by faith only.”
Trent also says:
Session Six-Canon I
If anyone says, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, **without the grace of God **through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
Session Six-Canon IX
If anyone says, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
Session Six-Canon XXIV
If anyone says, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.
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