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bbbeatt
Guest
Thank you PRmerger,
You posted: The “impossible to restore again to repentance” refers to final impenitence.
I was unfamiliar with the term “final impenetance” and read about it at catholictreasury.info.
It is true that the dead can’t repent, because it is too late. But “final impenetance” also includes one who has decided that he will not repent.
- Are you saying that one who has decided that he will not repent, can not change his mind and repent?
- Would not the term “fallen away” include one who intentionally broke one of the 10 commandments and lost his salvation thereby? The doctrine of repentance indicates that that person must repent to regain his salvation. But the passage seems to say that one can not repent after falling away. ie there appears to be some aspect or type of repentance that is one time only.
"For it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE AGAIN TO REPENTANCE those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have FALLEN AWAY, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
What do you think these things mean?
- Once have been enlighten:
- Tasted the heavenly gift:
- Have shared in the Holy Spirit:
- Tasted the goodness of the word of God:
- The powers of the age to come:
apostasy (uh-pos´tuh-see), rebellion against or abandonment of faith. It refers in the Hebrew Bible to Israel’s unfaithfulness to God (Jer. 2:19; 5:6; cf. Josh. 22:22; 2 Chron. 33:19) and in the NT to the abandonment of Christian faith (Heb. 6:6). In Acts 21:21, the Greek root of the word “apostasy” is used for Paul’s alleged rejection of Moses and, in 2 Thess. 2:3, for an expected rebellion before the end.
(The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary)
apos•ta•sy \ə-ˈpäs-tə-sē\ noun
plural -sies [Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo- + histasthai to stand — more at STAND] 14th century
1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION
(Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary)
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bbbeatt
Guest
Thank you for your post.
Yes, apostasy would be included in the phrase “fallen away”.
Are you saying that one who loses salvation by sinning has not “fallen away”?
Surely, one who lost salvation in this way would be considered to have “fallen away”.
But the scripture states that one can not repent after one has “fallen away”. Yet the doctrine of repentance states that one who has fallen away will have salvation restored by repentance.
Are there multiple types of repentance?..
How does the cycle of salvation, losing salvation by sinning, restoring salvation by repentance fit the passage?
"For it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE AGAIN TO REPENTANCE those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have FALLEN AWAY, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
Lord of Heaven and Earth, please reveal yourself to Isaiah45_9 and I! Amen.
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Isaiah45_9
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PRmerger
Guest
He can change his mind as long as he is living and has use of his reason.
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PRmerger
Guest
No one has “salvation”, bbb, until he dies. You are saved when you die.
Do you have a Scripture verse for this? I am looking for the words “regain” and “salvation”.
Yes. That would be the final type.
Sorry. I don’t understand your question.
Amen!
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bbbeatt
Guest
I thought that according to Catholic doctrine, a mortal sin would constitute “falling away”.
I also understood that the one must repent of a mortal sin or suffer damnation.
But Hebrews 6: 4-6 states that repentance is impossible for one who has “fallen away”. Since a mortal sin equals falling away, repentance is impossible for one who has committed mortal sin.
So, repentance of mortal sin to avoid damnation doesn’t seem to fit (seems inconsistent with) Hebrews 6:4-6
"For it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RESTORE AGAIN TO REPENTANCE those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have FALLEN AWAY, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
I may misunderstand Catholic doctrine or the passage or both. If you can explain, I would appreciate it.
God Bless!
Lord of Heaven and earth, please reveal yourself to PRmerger and I! Amen.
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Harry1941
Guest
Code:
The child is not blame for their parent's sins. Only if the child grows up and accepts and copy off the parents, than the parent's sins become the child A child's innocent is only external until the child grows and learn how to love and serve the Kord correctly, and than the child's innocent become internal, which means,from the spirit. The Lord is 100 time more innocent than billions of children. No child is born perfect.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes.
Yes. Repent and receive the Sacrament of Confession.
Yes, this refers to final impenitence.
If one has final impenitence, yes, then it is impossible for him to be saved.
Amen!
I think it would be best if you answered the questions posed earlier to you. Then it would be easier for us to address where you are mistaken.
Member Isaiah posed these questions to you:
What do you think these things mean?
- Once have been enlighten:
- Tasted the heavenly gift:
- Have shared in the Holy Spirit:
- Tasted the goodness of the word of God:
- The powers of the age to come:
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed. This is very Catholic.
But because of Adam and Eve’s Original Sin we have lost the sanctifying grace that we originally had.
Bible verse for this, please.
This, too, is very Catholic.
All of us were born (except Jesus and Mary) deprived of our original perfection.
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UnumCorpus
Guest
Wow, this is a long thread! I admit I have not read through alll 26 pages of responses but I posted on another thread which had the same topic, so I figured I should re-post it here:
The debate between faith vs good works is a case of a false dichotomy. It’s true that some Christian churches emphasize one over the other, but it is just silly to claim that salvation is based on only one and not the other. I just love C.S. Lewis’ perspective on the matter:
“There are two parodies of the truth which different sets of Christians have, in the past, been accused by other Christians of believing: perhaps they may make the truth clearer. One set were accused of saying, ‘Good actions are all that matters. The best good action is charity. The best kind of charity is giving money. The best thing to give money to is the Church. So hand us over ₤10,000 and we will see you through.’ The answer to that nonsense, of course, would be that good actions done for that motive, done with the idea that Heaven can be bought, would not be good actions at all, but only commercial speculations. The other set were accused of saying, ‘Faith is all that matters. Consequently, if you have faith, it doesn’t matter what you do. Sin away, my lad, and have a good time and Christ will see that it makes no difference in the end.’ The answers to that nonsense is that, if what you call your ‘faith’ in Christ does not involve taking the slightest notice of what he says, then it is not Faith at all — not faith or trust in Him, but only intellectual acceptance of some theory of Him.”
-Mere Christianity
Obviously good works by themselves is not enough, otherwise atheists who do good things could be saved on that merit alone. And faith without good works is dead…if you claim to have faith but do no good works, it leads one to question whether you truly have faith in the first place. To paraphrase Lewis, the debate of faith vs good works is like arguing which blade on a pair of scissors is most necessary.
The debate between faith vs good works is a case of a false dichotomy. It’s true that some Christian churches emphasize one over the other, but it is just silly to claim that salvation is based on only one and not the other. I just love C.S. Lewis’ perspective on the matter:
“There are two parodies of the truth which different sets of Christians have, in the past, been accused by other Christians of believing: perhaps they may make the truth clearer. One set were accused of saying, ‘Good actions are all that matters. The best good action is charity. The best kind of charity is giving money. The best thing to give money to is the Church. So hand us over ₤10,000 and we will see you through.’ The answer to that nonsense, of course, would be that good actions done for that motive, done with the idea that Heaven can be bought, would not be good actions at all, but only commercial speculations. The other set were accused of saying, ‘Faith is all that matters. Consequently, if you have faith, it doesn’t matter what you do. Sin away, my lad, and have a good time and Christ will see that it makes no difference in the end.’ The answers to that nonsense is that, if what you call your ‘faith’ in Christ does not involve taking the slightest notice of what he says, then it is not Faith at all — not faith or trust in Him, but only intellectual acceptance of some theory of Him.”
-Mere Christianity
Obviously good works by themselves is not enough, otherwise atheists who do good things could be saved on that merit alone. And faith without good works is dead…if you claim to have faith but do no good works, it leads one to question whether you truly have faith in the first place. To paraphrase Lewis, the debate of faith vs good works is like arguing which blade on a pair of scissors is most necessary.
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bbbeatt
Guest
Thank you PRmerger.
Those 5 phrases indicate that the person was or is a Christian, saved, had received eternal life, etc so the passage is not talking about a nonconvert. Is that what you are looking for? I am not one who believes that the scriptures teach once saved, always saved.
You posted: If one has final impenitence, yes, then it is impossible for him to be saved.
As I read on the Catholic site, one can be in final impenitence while he still lives. Can he change his mind and repent?
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PRmerger
Guest
And what is it that you believe these verses mean?
Great, for that is an innovation created by people who have divorced themselves from the faith given, once for all, to the apostles.
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DavidWJackson
Guest
I think Paul is refering to one who is throughly knowledgeable within the faith of Christ’s church. Who then discards their faith of Christ’s church and turns away from it. Martin Luther might possibly be a good example. Mr. Luther without voicing it basicly said, Holy Spirit I don’t like the way your guiding Christ’s church. I don’t like were you are leading Christ’s church and I can do a better job without you Holy Spirit. Mr. Luther then metaphorically kicked the Holy Spirit to the curb. Mr. Luther then started a new Christian church under his instruction and guidance independent of the Holy Spirit who was sent by God to guide Christ’s church.
Christ says even the just man sins seven times a day, so this can’t be refering to sins as falling away.
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PRmerger
Guest
Just to be clear: we are not certain who the inspired author of Hebrews is. It does not appear to be St. Paul, according to most Scripture scholars.
Incidentally, the questionable authorship ought to be very, very troubling to those who reject the authority of the CC.
For if one does not know who wrote Hebrews, how does he know that he was inspired? How does he know if the author actually witnessed the Resurrection or spoke with those who did?
The answer for Catholics is: we don’t know. That’s why we submit to the authority of the CC to discern for us that this book is indeed* theopneustos.*
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bbbeatt
Guest
If “faith alone” means one can have faith, flaunt God’s commands and still go to heaven, then I can see why God’s people would be upset about “faith alone”.
I fear that many mean just that by “faith alone”.
They should read 1 John 2:3-4 “Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. 4 Whoever says, “I have come to know him,” but does not obey his commandments, IS A LIAR, and in such a person the truth does not exist;”
My discourse with Catholics has been very beneficial to me in that it has emphasized a flaw in “faith alone”… that flaw being that we are saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH Eph 2:8
Myself, and many others, intend the phrase “faith alone” to mean that man’s part in entering salvation is faith, not works, meaning that we can’t earn or deserve God’s Kingdom. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works Eph 2:8-10. If no works occur after a professed conversion, then the person is shown to have not faith and not know God… not saved. (1 John 2:2-4) The true believer must have works, but is not saved BY the works… he is saved by grace, through faith. So, like the Catholic, I believe that the Christian must work… but unlike the Catholic, I believe that the I am not saved BY the work. Do I understand this part of Catholicism correctly?..
May God bless all of you abundantly more than all you could ask for or imagine! Amen.
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steved12345
Guest
I am reading this thread with great interest. I am a practicing Catholic. Follow the rules the best I can, and go to confession when I mortally sin in the eyes of the Catholic doctorine.
However, if I was honest with myself, I am struggling with this idea that if I go to confession , my soul is then in a state of grace and I will go to heaven. But then i somehow mortally sin the next day - I am condemned to hell ? (not because I do not love God - but am a human being that stumbles at times).
I do not wish to leave the Catholic religion that I grew up with since I do not beleive a very important part of the Catholic doctorine…, but I must admit that I believe that “once truly saved by accepting sincerely Jesus into your hearts”, …that you are then eternally saved… and thus a will not want to sin again and as a result will practice good works as a result of your love for Christ and Him saving you - versus following certain doctorine (works) that may be simply too hard for any human to be like 100 percent of the time. How many times does Christ have to die on the cross for it to be good enough for all of my sins ? Are we saying that Jesus dying and rising alone is not enough to cover all of my sins and pay my penalty for my sinfull nature. (sorry this is what I believe - and I am not looking to debate my belief)… but am concerned if I am wrong… as I do not want to spend eternity in hell. I truly want to know the will of God and follow it.
Yes their is confession. but is my salvation like a “yo-yo”… I am saved today, condemned to hell tomorrow, then saved again the next day when I go to confession, etc).
I do not wish to debate my “once saved. always saved” opinion - and I guess that makes me a born again catholic (if such a term even exists)…, but my question to you all sincerely is this… since I believe in once saved always saved… am I no longer a Catholic and condemned to hell (even if I try and practice the faith/religion - even though I may not believe all of the doctorine of the Catholic faith… Am I rejecting my catholic faith and doomed to etertnity in hell in your honest opinion since I am being honest that I believe that faith in Jesus alone is all that is needed (true faith in Jesus in our hearts that wants us to change from our old self to be more like Christ).
Thank you
Steve
However, if I was honest with myself, I am struggling with this idea that if I go to confession , my soul is then in a state of grace and I will go to heaven. But then i somehow mortally sin the next day - I am condemned to hell ? (not because I do not love God - but am a human being that stumbles at times).
I do not wish to leave the Catholic religion that I grew up with since I do not beleive a very important part of the Catholic doctorine…, but I must admit that I believe that “once truly saved by accepting sincerely Jesus into your hearts”, …that you are then eternally saved… and thus a will not want to sin again and as a result will practice good works as a result of your love for Christ and Him saving you - versus following certain doctorine (works) that may be simply too hard for any human to be like 100 percent of the time. How many times does Christ have to die on the cross for it to be good enough for all of my sins ? Are we saying that Jesus dying and rising alone is not enough to cover all of my sins and pay my penalty for my sinfull nature. (sorry this is what I believe - and I am not looking to debate my belief)… but am concerned if I am wrong… as I do not want to spend eternity in hell. I truly want to know the will of God and follow it.
Yes their is confession. but is my salvation like a “yo-yo”… I am saved today, condemned to hell tomorrow, then saved again the next day when I go to confession, etc).
I do not wish to debate my “once saved. always saved” opinion - and I guess that makes me a born again catholic (if such a term even exists)…, but my question to you all sincerely is this… since I believe in once saved always saved… am I no longer a Catholic and condemned to hell (even if I try and practice the faith/religion - even though I may not believe all of the doctorine of the Catholic faith… Am I rejecting my catholic faith and doomed to etertnity in hell in your honest opinion since I am being honest that I believe that faith in Jesus alone is all that is needed (true faith in Jesus in our hearts that wants us to change from our old self to be more like Christ).
Thank you
Steve
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
Belief in justification by faith alone and belief in Once Saved always saved makes a Catholic a heretic provided that Catholic knows the Catholic faith.
If that person persists in heresy unrepentant up to death then yes that person would go to Hell!
I wish Hell on no one and only God can judge whether a Catholic knows the Catholic faith well enough to be culpable for departing from it and only God can know if that Catholic would be truly unrepentant for such beliefs all the way up to the time of their deaths.
If those things were judged by God to be the case then the unrepentant knowledgeable Catholic heretic would go to Hell!
The reason the Catholic would go to Hell is that they would MORTALLY sin by refusing to believe the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Yes Mortal and venial sin does exist.
Dying in a state of mortal sin = Hell and it doesn’t matter whether you WANT to believe that or not or whether you LIKE to believe that or not–it is a FACT!!!
You don’t get to believe whatever you WANT to believe after having knowledge of the TRUTH of the Catholic faith!
Now some people who are Catholics may not have full knowledge of all the doctrines of the Catholic faith–God doesn’t send anyone to Hell for what they do not know.
The reason your salvation could be like a yo-yo is that yes most humans do mortally sin–that is WHY Jesus gave the disciples the power to “FORGIVE and RETAIN sins” when He breathed on them in the upper room and gave them that power AFTER He had paid the price on the cross and had risen from the dead.
There would be no need for the disciples to have the POWER that Jesus has–to FORGIVE and RETAIN sins if Jesus didn’t know that we would NEED Confession!
Is it Harder than once saved always saved? Of Course! Is it as Hard as Jesus paying for all the BILLIONS of sins for all times on the Cross! Of course not!
To tell the truth if a disciple of the Lord’s is not willing to do something as EASY as going to Confession after the PRICE that Jesus paid for him on the Cross–
then that disciple isn’t WORTH the price that Jesus paid on the cross and as a matter of JUSTICE belongs in Hell!
Why? Because every time we sin we INFINITELY offend God because God is INFINITELY perfect and has never offended us who He INFINITELY loves!
If a Catholic REJECTS confession which Jesus gave us then that Catholic is telling Jesus–I don’t care what you gave me the sacrament of confession to remove my mortal sins Jesus–I am going to do whatever I want to whenever I want to because I want to and what I WANT is to not confess to a priest when I mortally sin.
Not only that but I’m going to say that your Catholic Church is a LIAR and I’m going to NOT BELIEVE in mortal sin and I’m going to believe in Once saved always saved because it is CONVENIENT for me!
Jesus only asks us to confess MORTAL sins to a priest–not venial ones.
St. Paul told us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”.
OBEY the bible and God who wrote it and just do it!
Don’t go for the easy way of Protestant heretics 1500 years after the fact doing whatever they want to do and wind up burning in Hell!
If that person persists in heresy unrepentant up to death then yes that person would go to Hell!
I wish Hell on no one and only God can judge whether a Catholic knows the Catholic faith well enough to be culpable for departing from it and only God can know if that Catholic would be truly unrepentant for such beliefs all the way up to the time of their deaths.
If those things were judged by God to be the case then the unrepentant knowledgeable Catholic heretic would go to Hell!
The reason the Catholic would go to Hell is that they would MORTALLY sin by refusing to believe the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Yes Mortal and venial sin does exist.
Dying in a state of mortal sin = Hell and it doesn’t matter whether you WANT to believe that or not or whether you LIKE to believe that or not–it is a FACT!!!
You don’t get to believe whatever you WANT to believe after having knowledge of the TRUTH of the Catholic faith!
Now some people who are Catholics may not have full knowledge of all the doctrines of the Catholic faith–God doesn’t send anyone to Hell for what they do not know.
The reason your salvation could be like a yo-yo is that yes most humans do mortally sin–that is WHY Jesus gave the disciples the power to “FORGIVE and RETAIN sins” when He breathed on them in the upper room and gave them that power AFTER He had paid the price on the cross and had risen from the dead.
There would be no need for the disciples to have the POWER that Jesus has–to FORGIVE and RETAIN sins if Jesus didn’t know that we would NEED Confession!
Is it Harder than once saved always saved? Of Course! Is it as Hard as Jesus paying for all the BILLIONS of sins for all times on the Cross! Of course not!
To tell the truth if a disciple of the Lord’s is not willing to do something as EASY as going to Confession after the PRICE that Jesus paid for him on the Cross–
then that disciple isn’t WORTH the price that Jesus paid on the cross and as a matter of JUSTICE belongs in Hell!
Why? Because every time we sin we INFINITELY offend God because God is INFINITELY perfect and has never offended us who He INFINITELY loves!
If a Catholic REJECTS confession which Jesus gave us then that Catholic is telling Jesus–I don’t care what you gave me the sacrament of confession to remove my mortal sins Jesus–I am going to do whatever I want to whenever I want to because I want to and what I WANT is to not confess to a priest when I mortally sin.
Not only that but I’m going to say that your Catholic Church is a LIAR and I’m going to NOT BELIEVE in mortal sin and I’m going to believe in Once saved always saved because it is CONVENIENT for me!
Jesus only asks us to confess MORTAL sins to a priest–not venial ones.
St. Paul told us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”.
OBEY the bible and God who wrote it and just do it!
Don’t go for the easy way of Protestant heretics 1500 years after the fact doing whatever they want to do and wind up burning in Hell!
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bbbeatt
Guest
Whether your belief in “once saved, always saved” excludes you from the Catholic Church or not, I do not know. But as to your eternal destiny, I submit the following:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.
John 5:24
Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word (Christ’s word) and BELIEVES him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.
1 John 2:3-4 “Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. 4 Whoever says, “I have come to know him,” but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist;”
The phrase “eternal life” occurs 44 times in the Bible. 18 times in the gospel of John. The next most frequent occurrence of the phrase occurs in 1 John (6 times), followed by Romans (4 times).
Come into the presence of the Lord by faith. Ask the Lord to reveal himself more fully to you. Then read John.
Lord of Heaven and Earth, please reveal your self to steved12345 and I! Amen
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