Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

[PRmerger]

Nope. Saying Catholics * seem to* think something from my point of view is hugely different from making an authoritative assertion about Church doctrine. All he did was set up a silly straw man.

Ok.

As long as he’s aware that the Catholic Church does not teach anything like that. And he’s not insistent upon that fallacy.

 

[Harry1941]

Please do not misrepresent the Catholic Church’s teachings, Harry. This is something that people can get banned for.

You will need to provide something from the Church magisterium that supports your assertion, else you will need to retract the above. Please provide your source from the Church that states that the angels, being sinless and perfect,

I I am sorry for upsitting the Catolics here. I alway thought the Catholics believed the saints and angils were perfect, I was wrong.

Harry

 

[mhmtas]

Faith alone, is reason for salvation. But it is so difficult to concerve faith without pray, repentance, action. Human is not sinful but commit sin. So he must repent to get qualify for forgiving of God and pray to get God’s mercy and grace.

 

[Harry1941]

Charity is not thinking and doing evil to an evil person.You don’t return evil for evil… You love the neighbor according to degree of good in them… An evil doer must be turn into the law.and punished, and in this way the evil doer can learn to repent.

Harry

 

[Isaiah45_9]

PRmerger;10636254:

Please do not misrepresent the Catholic Church’s teachings, Harry. This is something that people can get banned for.

You will need to provide something from the Church magisterium that supports your assertion, else you will need to retract the above. Please provide your source from the Church that states that the angels, being sinless and perfect,

I I am sorry for upsitting the Catolics here. I alway thought the Catholics believed the saints and angils were perfect, I was wrong.

Harry

Thanks for your apology, it takes courage to do this.

You fell victim of one of many misconceptions about Catholicism. That’s why this forum is here, to clear’em up!

 

[PRmerger]

I am sorry for upsitting the Catolics here. I alway thought the Catholics believed the saints and angils were perfect, I was wrong.

Harry

Not a problem.

Just keep this in mind as you post here: it’s probably a good idea to learn what Catholicism actually proclaims before you say “The Catholic Church teaches this.”

Just so you know, Harry, the Catholic Church proclaims that all creatures, even the angels and saints, need God.

From our Catechism: From the Incarnation to the Ascension, the life of the Word incarnate is surrounded by the adoration and service of angels. When God "brings the firstborn into the world, he says: ‘Let all God’s angels worship him.’ Heb 1:6.Their song of praise at the birth of Christ has not ceased resounding in the Church’s praise: “Glory to God in the highest!” Lk 2:14. They protect Jesus in his infancy, serve him in the desert, strengthen him in his agony in the garden, when he could have been saved by them from the hands of his enemies as Israel had been.Mt 1:20; 2:13,19; 4:11; 26:53; Mk 1:13; Lk 22:43; 2 Macc 10:29-30; 11:8.Again, it is the angels who “evangelize” by proclaiming the Good News of Christ’s Incarnation and Resurrection.Lk 2:8-14; Mk 16:5-7.They will be present at Christ’s return, which they will announce, to serve at his judgment.Acts 1:10-11; Mt 13:41; 24:31; Lk 12:8-9.

 

[DavidWJackson]

Could you provide your source for this, please?

Source for this as well, please.

Source for this, too! Where has the CC tradition proclaimed St. Paul to be the author?

I am not necessarily doubting the reliability of this. I just don’t know. Haven’t read anywhere where the Church has declared St. Paul to be the author of Hebrews.

To answer all of your questions in post 487 the “New American Bible” - Revised Edition, Saint Benedict Press, in the introduction to the book of “Hebrews”.

 

[DavidWJackson]

David, it would help if you learned to use all the quote features so we know to what you are addressing specifically.

As such, I am quite perplexed about the above comment and to whom it was directed.

As well as this. What comment prompts this response of yours?

Refering to the book of “Hebrews” being in question I’m refering to post 389 paragraghs 2 & 3 which lead me to believe, you may be pondering the valadation of “Hebrews”.

My words to mortal sin being unrepentable were in referance to post 381 by bbbeatt. Sorry.
Incidently all sin is repentable for Christ said that there is only one sin which may not,***not ***would not be forgiven in this world or the next.

Yes, I should take more time to learn more about this application. But, I see no clear cut link to any instructions reguarding this. I work twevle to sixteen hour days with no scheduled days off. I have to fly by the seat of my pants in many cases.

 

[PRmerger]

Not to brow beat, but to justify my use as St. Paul as the author. The Eastren Catholic Church has held on to Paul as the author to this date **since **the second century. The Latin Rite Church was just fine with this from the forth century until the fifteen hundreds.

Could you provide your source for this, please?

To answer all of your questions in post 487 the “New American Bible” - Revised Edition, Saint Benedict Press, in the introduction to the book of “Hebrews”.

Not to brow beat, but the source you cited says “as early as the second century”, not SINCE the 2nd century.

That’s a big difference that ought not be dismissed.

Especially since the commentary goes on to say, “…and the modern consensus is that the letter was not written by St. Paul.”

Your own source says that the consensus is that it was NOT WRITTEN BY ST. PAUL.

Just sayin’…

 

[PRmerger]

Refering to the book of “Hebrews” being in question I’m refering to post 389 paragraghs 2 & 3 which lead me to believe, you may be pondering the valadation of “Hebrews”.

Nope. Please read it again.

I will condense my position for you though: if you are a Protestant recusant to the authority of the Catholic Church, then the questionable authorship of Hebrews ought to be very, very troubling for you.

For the ONLY way that Protestants know that Hebrews is inspired is because the Catholic Church proclaimed to them that it is inspired.

Yes, I should take more time to learn more about this application. But, I see no clear cut link to any instructions reguarding this. I work twevle to sixteen hour days with no scheduled days off. I have to fly by the seat of my pants in many cases.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=19771

 

[wittgenstein]

Faith without action is like if I told my wife I loved her without helping her. You guys are debating from two different directions that have to go together. Its like arguing, what is more important, your heart or your lungs. Your heart is useless without lungs and your lungs are superfluous without a heart!

 

[JonNC]

Faith without action is like if I told my wife I loved her without helping her. You guys are debating from two different directions that have to go together. Its like arguing, what is more important, your heart or your lungs. Your heart is useless without lungs and your lungs are superfluous without a heart!

Yet heart and lungs serve different purposes. Faith relates to “love The Lord your God”. It is how we come to, or access, justification. Works relates to “love your neighbor as yourself”.
Both are, indeed, vital for the Regenerate.

Jon

 

[Harry1941]

Repentance is the first thing of the church in man. 1, We must search ourselves,for sins, 2, confess them before God and repent.3, Stop thinking and doing evil . 4 Obey the Ten Commandments. We you want to start a new life, after you repent, change your friends, Move somewhere else, where you won’t be tempted. If you can’t move to another place than stand up to your friends, who are in evil,and tell them not to come around anymore, until they repent and live a good life. You must love your neighbor according the degree of good in in the neighbor. You don’t love an evil person the same way you love a good one

, The Lord’s death on the cross doesn’t take away out sins, as Protestants believe. If that were true the devil himself would be saved. In Acts Peter told the Jews to repent and be baptize. You cannot enter heaven if you come before the angels in a form of a goat. A goat signifies a person who is all faith and no repentance of sins, and with no doing good works of charity. If they do repent,it is not for God, but for themselves. The end justifies the means…

Right now, I going tp watch a dvd movie call Jeremiah, with Patrick Dempsey, I love this movie…

Harry

 

[DavidWJackson]

Not to brow beat, but the source you cited says “as early as the second century”, not SINCE the 2nd century.

That’s a big difference that ought not be dismissed.

Especially since the commentary goes on to say, “…and the modern consensus is that the letter was not written by St. Paul.”

Your own source says that the consensus is that it was NOT WRITTEN BY ST. PAUL.

Just sayin’…

One must read further then the first sentence. If you would have read into the ninth paragraph you would havre read, Quote - “As early as the end of the second century, the church of Alexandria in Egypt accepted Hebrews as a letter of Paul, and that became the view commonly held in the East. Pauline authorship was contested in the West into the fouth century, but then accepted. In the sixteenth century, doubts about that position were again raised, and the modern consensus is that the letter was not written by Paul.”

Consensus 1. An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole or by majority will. 2. General agreement.

Group, majority will, and general agreement are not definitives or absolutes.

Also, why have you not noticed when speaking of modern consensus it is only refering to the church of the West? Now, don’t fall back out of your chair, because.I do agree with you. Paul probably did not write “Hebrews”. However, I cannot fault anyone who attributes Paul to its authorship including myself. The church does not have a definitive stating otherwise. It’s still in question and the Eastren church still looks to Paul as the author of “Hebrews”.

 

[PRmerger]

Paul probably did not write “Hebrews”.

Egg-zactly.

However, I cannot fault anyone who attributes Paul to its authorship including myself.

 

[Fundamentalist1]

Faith alone is equivalent to Spiritual alone. We don’t live solely in a Spiritual Reality, our Reality is Spiritual and Physical. If Faith alone is sufficient then why must we do the Physical act of Praying or Repenting? Faith alone drawn down to its natural conclusion simply means No Physical acts, No Prayer, No Repentance, are needed for Salvation. Which also means no Physical acts can cause one to lose salvation, including mass murder. Faith alone is essentially nothing, without meaning, Void of Life or Dead. For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

Is Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing? :whacky:

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8-9, KJB). A person of faith who can should do works, but not for your salvation, but because of your salvation. What about the one who comes to know Christ and is disabled or on their death bed? Rejoice, for God is our salvation (Isaiah 12:3)! He alone saves and only he saves. He is sovereign in the redemption of souls. You can’t save yourself, for before God we are to humble ourselves as sinners, not justify ourselves by our “good” works, for he views our “good” works as selfish, self-serving, filthy rags because of our wretched nature (Isaiah 64:6, KJB). It is faith alone in the blood of Christ, followed by the work of God through regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification (Rom 8:30).

 

[aidanbradypop]

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8-9, KJB). A person of faith who can should do works, but not for your salvation, but because of your salvation. What about the one who comes to know Christ and is disabled or on their death bed? Rejoice, for God is our salvation (Isaiah 12:3)! He alone saves and only he saves. He is sovereign in the redemption of souls. You can’t save yourself, for before God we are to humble ourselves as sinners, not justify ourselves by our “good” works, for he views our “good” works as selfish, self-serving, filthy rags because of our wretched nature (Isaiah 64:6, KJB). It is faith alone in the blood of Christ, followed by the work of God through regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification (Rom 8:30).

God is fair and just and will judge a person accordingly. Right? I remember in high school choir there was a gal who was mentally disabled. She knew every song in her hymnal. She would sing and sing all day long. It did not matter where she was or who was there. She would simply sing. You could tell her to sing #84 and she would start singing it away without ever looking.

What does that say about me? I have no clue what #84 is or even the words. If we do not do as Christ commanded, are we really “saved” or must we work out our salvation?

Satan believes in Christ…is he saved? If faith is simply to believe then how does one justify that when Satan knows who Christ is?

If you read Scripture in the context for which it was written, you will understand that many people of that time believed they could please God by simply doing work for him without actually having faith in the one He sent.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8-9) One should not brag about what they do for the Lord. We should do charity for others for wanting to “look” good, but rather we should love one another as Christ commanded because we believe in His eternal Word and Church.

 

[JustaServant]

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8-9, KJB). A person of faith who can should do works, but not for your salvation, but because of your salvation. What about the one who comes to know Christ and is disabled or on their death bed? Rejoice, for God is our salvation (Isaiah 12:3)! He alone saves and only he saves. He is sovereign in the redemption of souls. You can’t save yourself, for before God we are to humble ourselves as sinners, not justify ourselves by our “good” works, for he views our “good” works as selfish, self-serving, filthy rags because of our wretched nature (Isaiah 64:6, KJB). It is faith alone in the blood of Christ, followed by the work of God through regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification (Rom 8:30).

Weeeeeeell I’m convinced.
When do I sign up for the local indepenny, funnymental King Jimmy only Church?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8-9, KJB). A person of faith who can should do works, but not for your salvation, but because of your salvation. What about the one who comes to know Christ and is disabled or on their death bed? Rejoice, for God is our salvation (Isaiah 12:3)! He alone saves and only he saves. He is sovereign in the redemption of souls. You can’t save yourself, for before God we are to humble ourselves as sinners, not justify ourselves by our “good” works, for he views our “good” works as selfish, self-serving, filthy rags because of our wretched nature (Isaiah 64:6, KJB). It is faith alone in the blood of Christ, followed by the work of God through regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification (Rom 8:30).

I don’t know if I have posted this:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Shannon9791]

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:8-9, KJB). A person of faith who can should do works, but not for your salvation, but because of your salvation. What about the one who comes to know Christ and is disabled or on their death bed? Rejoice, for God is our salvation (Isaiah 12:3)! He alone saves and only he saves. He is sovereign in the redemption of souls. You can’t save yourself, for before God we are to humble ourselves as sinners, not justify ourselves by our “good” works, for he views our “good” works as selfish, self-serving, filthy rags because of our wretched nature (Isaiah 64:6, KJB). It is faith alone in the blood of Christ, followed by the work of God through regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification (Rom 8:30).

Is “Coming to know Christ” a work? As far as I see it, it is. That is something one has to consciously do, so therefore, it is a work. Faith, to me, in and of itself is a work, because the only way to express that faith, be it to God or man, is by works. What does Ephesians 2:10 say? “For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them” It tells us to do good works!

And I see that you like to quote Romans, which is awesome, b/c in Romans 2:5-7 it says “5By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will *repay everyone according to his works: **7eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works” We’re going to be repaid for our works! If God sees our good works as filthy rags, why would Paul tell us God will repay us for them? Seems pretty contradictory to me, and our God is not a God of contradiction.

No one here is arguing that salvation comes from anyone but God. But as I’ve shown, we have to participate in achieving that salvation by living in the good works God has created for us to do. Here’s a question, if one does not do the works God has created for them, but still has faith, will they be saved?