Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

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Shannon9791 said:
Is “Coming to know Christ” a work? As far as I see it, it is. That is something one has to consciously do, so therefore, it is a work.
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If someone has faith without working at it, please tell me the formula! lol
 
Shannon9791 said:
Is “Coming to know Christ” a work? As far as I see it, it is. That is something one has to consciously do, so therefore, it is a work. Faith, to me, in and of itself is a work, because the only way to express that faith, be it to God or man, is by works. What does Ephesians 2:10 say? “For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them” It tells us to do good works!

And I see that you like to quote Romans, which is awesome, b/c in Romans 2:5-7 it says “5By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will *repay everyone according to his works: **7eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works” We’re going to be repaid for our works! If God sees our good works as filthy rags, why would Paul tell us God will repay us for them? Seems pretty contradictory to me, and our God is not a God of contradiction.

No one here is arguing that salvation comes from anyone but God. But as I’ve shown, we have to participate in achieving that salvation by living in the good works God has created for us to do. Here’s a question, if one does not do the works God has created for them, but still has faith, will they be saved?
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Are you of the belief that a person can come to saving faith by their own efforts, their own hard work?

Jon
 
Azygos said:
Faith alone is equivalent to Spiritual alone. We don’t live solely in a Spiritual Reality, our Reality is Spiritual and Physical. If Faith alone is sufficient then why must we do the Physical act of Praying or Repenting? Faith alone drawn down to its natural conclusion simply means No Physical acts, No Prayer, No Repentance, are needed for Salvation. Which also means no Physical acts can cause one to lose salvation, including mass murder. Faith alone is essentially nothing, without meaning, Void of Life or Dead. For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

Is Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing? :whacky:
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Yes, to me faith alone is like having the perfect chalice but nothing in it.
EDIT:
(Or would a better comparison be having good drink but no chalice?)
 
JonNC said:
Are you of the belief that a person can come to saving faith by their own efforts, their own hard work?

Jon
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No, I believe we are called to faith by God through His grace, works are how we respond to that call, thereby making works necessary.
 
JonNC said:
It is a famous Catholic question, as well. How do we come to justifying faith? 🙂

Jon
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Its like a peach that I offer you. I offer it to you freely in hope that you take the peach and eat it. I cannot “make” you eat the peach. You have to decide if you want to take the peach and eat of it.

God offers us salvation. We can deny God to the very end. We cannot do it alone. God moves our hearts to be with him. Even though, by the power of the Holy Spirit we are moved, we can still say no.
 
The way some Catholics think Protestants believe in “Faith alone” is as bad as Protestants thinking Catholics worship Mary.

Let’s leave ignorance at the door and know that we are saved by our Faith and our Faith produces works. Can any of the Catholics here say that they have left everything behind and followed Jesus, or are you lacking that like the rich man?

If you haven’t done so then where is your Faith? If you truly had Faith you would lose your materials and seek after Christ alone. But it’s not that easy to have that much Faith, so let’s stop acting righteous because none of us are. Not one.
 
Shannon9791 said:
No, I believe we are called to faith by God through His grace, works are how we respond to that call, thereby making works necessary.
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I would not argue against the statement that good works in the regenerate are necessary.
Since, as James says, faith without works is dead, and Paul tells us that a saving faith is a faith that works through love. Works are a necessity, not because they add to our merit, since Christ is our merit, but because God calls us to good works, and we joyfully obey.

Jon
 
dronald said:
The way some Catholics think Protestants believe in “Faith alone” is as bad as Protestants thinking Catholics worship Mary.

Let’s leave ignorance at the door and know that we are saved by our Faith and our Faith produces works. Can any of the Catholics here say that they have left everything behind and followed Jesus, or are you lacking that like the rich man?

If you haven’t done so then where is your Faith? If you truly had Faith you would lose your materials and seek after Christ alone. But it’s not that easy to have that much Faith, so let’s stop acting righteous because none of us are. Not one.
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Who is acting righteous?

I will be the first to admit that I need Christ every single second of the day. I need his loving grace upon my troubled soul. I always need to be reminded that each time I sin, I justify the actions that placed my beloved Lord on the cross. Everytime I sin, I place that nail deeper into His hand. Everytime I sin, I take away our Mother’s Son.

I hope I have not come across as being righteous. If so I am deeply sorry by that. 😦

Sadly I was raised in a Baptist denomination that believes faith in Christ is all that one needs to go to Heaven. I know many other faiths within Christianity are not so simple when it comes to faith. If we do not live out our faith, then what reason do we have faith? If we do not explain to others what Christ gave up for them, why even believe in Him? We are called to share the Gospel and love another as we love Christ. Often I fail.
 
JonNC said:
I would not argue against the statement that good works in the regenerate are necessary.
Since, as James says, faith without works is dead, and Paul tells us that a saving faith is a faith that works through love. Works are a necessity, not because they add to our merit, since Christ is our merit, but because God calls us to good works, and we joyfully obey.

Jon
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Not one Catholic could disagree with that. 😉
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Yes, to me faith alone is like having the perfect chalice but nothing in it.
EDIT:
(Or would a better comparison be having good drink but no chalice?)
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I dislike analogies such as this, but…

That perfect chalice (faith) is a gift, a gift of grace. We did not earn it, or work for it. It is, indeed, the means of our justification .
Good works - what we put in that chalice, do not add to it since it was a gift. What we put in it in terms of good works, however, are our response in the new obedience, following His commands, showing our love to fellow man. However, if we don’t use the chalice, one has to suspect that it is of no value to us.

Jon
 
aidanbradypop said:
Who is acting righteous?

I will be the first to admit that I need Christ every single second of the day. I need his loving grace upon my troubled soul. I always need to be reminded that each time I sin, I justify the actions that placed my beloved Lord on the cross. Everytime I sin, I place that nail deeper into His hand. Everytime I sin, I take away our Mother’s Son.

I hope I have not come across as being righteous. If so I am deeply sorry by that. 😦

Sadly I was raised in a Baptist denomination that believes faith in Christ is all that one needs to go to Heaven. I know many other faiths within Christianity are not so simple when it comes to faith. If we do not live out our faith, then what reason do we have faith? If we do not explain to others what Christ gave up for them, why even believe in Him? We are called to share the Gospel and love another as we love Christ. Often I fail.
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It is our Faith that brings us to Heaven, but we clearly don’t have Faith if we don’t do works. If I believe with all my heart in Jesus, why would I sin? We can argue all day on what affect sin has on one’s eternal Salvation, but where works are missing, Faith is missing. If you cannot do the works then you clearly don’t have Faith.

This is why Jesus has such high expectations of us in order to be perfect. Such as, surpassing the righteousness of the Pharisees, or giving everything up and following Him. We are commanded to have works to show our Faith and we’re proving by not doing works that our Faith is low.
 
Shannon9791 said:
Is “Coming to know Christ” a work? As far as I see it, it is. That is something one has to consciously do, so therefore, it is a work. Faith, to me, in and of itself is a work, because the only way to express that faith, be it to God or man, is by works. What does Ephesians 2:10 say? “For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them” It tells us to do good works!

And I see that you like to quote Romans, which is awesome, b/c in Romans 2:5-7 it says “5By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will *repay everyone according to his works: **7eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works” We’re going to be repaid for our works! If God sees our good works as filthy rags, why would Paul tell us God will repay us for them? Seems pretty contradictory to me, and our God is not a God of contradiction.

No one here is arguing that salvation comes from anyone but God. But as I’ve shown, we have to participate in achieving that salvation by living in the good works God has created for us to do. Here’s a question, if one does not do the works God has created for them, but still has faith, will they be saved?
Click to expand...
When he says the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgement of God comes, what is he referring to? The rapture! It’s common doctrine that after the rapture believers would be rewarded according to their works for God. And yes, we shall do good works, not FOR our salvation, but in gratitude and thankfulness towards God who saves us! When you study and exposit scripture, you have to read the entire passage, not just a verse. Context is important. In Romans 2:1-16, Paul refers to how the believer must avoid sin and follow the law, for he is still subject to the law and the wrath of our great God! God saves you, he knew you (According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace - Eph 1:4-7). Give up you who is decieved by the wolve in sheeps clothing. You can’t save yourself, you are helpless! God either chose you or he didn’t! Believers are ethically subject to the law, yes, but no one is saved according to the law! Good works are great, do them all you want! But if you are doing your works to save yourself from hell, they are selfish, self-serving, filthy rags. But doing them out of gratitude to God and expecting no reward is much better!
 
dronald said:
It is our Faith that brings us to Heaven, but we clearly don’t have Faith if we don’t do works. If I believe with all my heart in Jesus, why would I sin? We can argue all day on what affect sin has on one’s eternal Salvation, but where works are missing, Faith is missing. If you cannot do the works then you clearly don’t have Faith.

This is why Jesus has such high expectations of us in order to be perfect. Such as, surpassing the righteousness of the Pharisees, or giving everything up and following Him. We are commanded to have works to show our Faith and we’re proving by not doing works that our Faith is low.
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Amen!
 
aidanbradypop said:
Its like a peach that I offer you. I offer it to you freely in hope that you take the peach and eat it. I cannot “make” you eat the peach. You have to decide if you want to take the peach and eat of it.

God offers us salvation. We can deny God to the very end. We cannot do it alone. God moves our hearts to be with him. Even though, by the power of the Holy Spirit we are moved, we can still say no.
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Man denies God naturally, unless God has chosen him.
 
Satan “knows”, but he doesn’t “believe”, for he does not trust in Christ as his saviour.
 
Fundamentalist1 said:
When he says the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgement of God comes, what is he referring to? The rapture! It’s common doctrine that after the rapture believers would be rewarded according to their works for God. And yes, we shall do good works, not FOR our salvation, but in gratitude and thankfulness towards God who saves us! When you study and exposit scripture, you have to read the entire passage, not just a verse. Context is important. In Romans 2:1-16, Paul refers to how the believer must avoid sin and follow the law, for he is still subject to the law and the wrath of our great God! God saves you, he knew you (According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace - Eph 1:4-7). Give up you who is decieved by the wolve in sheeps clothing. You can’t save yourself, you are helpless! God either chose you or he didn’t! Believers are ethically subject to the law, yes, but no one is saved according to the law! Good works are great, do them all you want! But if you are doing your works to save yourself from hell, they are selfish, self-serving, filthy rags. But doing them out of gratitude to God and expecting no reward is much better!
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Every head bowed…
Every eye closed…
As the pianist plays “Just as I am” softly…
:rolleyes:

Heya…didya happen to read the forum rules?
Especially that part about proselytizing?
 
JonNC said:
I would not argue against the statement that good works in the regenerate are necessary.
Since, as James says, faith without works is dead, and Paul tells us that a saving faith is a faith that works through love. Works are a necessity, not because they add to our merit, since Christ is our merit, but because God calls us to good works, and we joyfully obey.

Jon
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Does your non-argument make you more Catholic or me more Lutheran? 👍
 
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