Faith Alone Is Enough to Save us?? Nu-Uh!...

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Church appointed by Jesus to the disciples has the right to forgive or not to forgive sins to man. so the Church had the power to excommunicate him. but the reason they did so was mainly because he had already said his plan: to get married and continue as bishop , which was not allowed…

what else could have the Church done??

and because of this, luther left the Church. but you must admit? he did this because of what HE wanted… not what was right… and when he became ordained, he made the promise that he would live only for God… once married your not 100% devoted to him… ?

Romans 16:17-18 “17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.”

I’m lost here? Luther never claimed he wanted to be a bishop and he never announced plans to marry? In fact, for a long time Luther was totally against the idea of he himself marrying. He actually, according to Luther, decided to get married to Katherine Von Bora to show his fellow clergy the example of clerical marriage and that it was acceptable as well as dignified for pastors to lead their congregations and be husbands and fathers at the same time. It was a new paradigm that he wanted to model according to what I’ve read from the Lutheran vantage point.

Luther actually was indifferent to apostolic succession and never claimed he was a bishop.

Did I understand your claims correctly?

Luther was condemned for teaching sola scriptura, sola fide, clerical marriage, justification through faith alone, disagreeing with the Church on a host of issues from indulgences to purgatory to the number of sacraments to the priesthood of all believers to the very nature of the Church itself. He held views that the Catholic Church found heretical.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I would not say that that is the correct verbage. We are saved 100% by grace because sin is something we cannot overcome. Nothing we can do or have of our own accord is able to save us.

However, faith is the vessel through which Grace flows into our lives, and works is kind of like the fertilizer that helps to grow our faith, in turn opening us to receive God’s grace.

Gariel of 12;
Hello promethius, you have a good way of analyzing the topics here;

I was wondering if you care to summarize how Grace works. Now as a Catholic God’s grace is sufficient for me, but I have a problem attaching the word “only” or “Sola” to Grace; here’s why; We have scriptures that give teachings such as “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” in another place “baptism saves you now”.

Infant baptism is one of the most precious gifts God has given us to display such Grace to an infant who does not have faith yet, only by the faith of the infants parents and witnesses (God parents) is God abel to Save the infant by baptism. Yet baptism saved the infant according to scripture. Another example is; according to James man cannot be saved by “faith” alone, but by works working through faith. He also exclaims that he can display “his faith by his works”, for by faith alone is nothing.

As a Catholic I have no problem with Grace, Faith, Works, Justification, Salvation, Scripture, Sacred Tradition, Redemption, Born (anothen = from above) again by Baptism etc. All these items are biblical. What I do not find as biblical is the term “Sola” or the term “Alone” being used to describe one of these as the only one thing to salvation, other than Jesus himself. That is why Jesus instituted the Sacraments so that he can be present to save all of humanity in each stage of life. Now that I entered another term Sacraments, which is the visible sign instituted by Jesus himself in order to part Grace to the believer.

So, can you use your talents to summarize what it is that saves? one item of Grace alone? or is it Baptism and the sacraments where the blessed Trinity is present, or faith by works with work out your salvation with fear and trembling?

Or just a commentary would suffice about how salvation is attained?

 

[promethius]

Hello promethius, you have a good way of analyzing the topics here;

Thank you much. you asked some deep points here, I’ll do my best to break it down and answer.

I was wondering if you care to summarize how Grace works. Now as a Catholic God’s grace is sufficient for me, but I have a problem attaching the word “only” or “Sola” to Grace; here’s why; We have scriptures that give teachings such as “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” in another place “baptism saves you now”.

Grace is something that God gives to us. We’re not worthy of it, nor are we capable of earning it at all. Somehow, God chooses to knock on everyone’s front door and offer it to them. However, there is a problem… everyone’s front door is faith. People with no faith… well, unfortunately their doors are nailed shut. People who have faith, have a door… but there’s another problem: that front door doesn’t fit quite right… it needs something to help it open. Works are the sand paper and WD-40 that help us open that door. Thus works open the door (faith) through which Grace flows from God. The saving part is grace, but all three are essential in our ACCEPTANCE of that grace. As with anything, we always have the free will to reject God as well.

Infant baptism is one of the most precious gifts God has given us to display such Grace to an infant who does not have faith yet, only by the faith of the infants parents and witnesses (God parents) is God abel to Save the infant by baptism. Yet baptism saved the infant according to scripture. Another example is; according to James man cannot be saved by “faith” alone, but by works working through faith. He also exclaims that he can display “his faith by his works”, for by faith alone is nothing.

I hope my example above indicated how faith alone is problematic… it’s not a big enough door without it being a living and growing faith.

I’d like to take the time here to address your baptism quote as well: the sacraments (baptism included) are physical outlets of grace. The actions themselves are rites established by God which enact an acceptance of Grace by the laity. When we are baptised we are opened to initial impartation of grace (and it is this impartation of initial grace that opens us to salvation… not that baptism itself is necessary any more than swimming in a pool, but that baptism is a rite which invokes a deeper aspect: the flow of salvific grace).

In the same way, to say that one needs works is not to say that one is SAVED by works either. The two concepts are not contradictory.

What I do not find as biblical is the term “Sola” or the term “Alone” being used to describe one of these as the only one thing to salvation, other than Jesus himself.

I hope I’ve clarified why the position of only grace saves is not meaning to say that the sacraments, faith, or Godly works are unnecessary. However, the Bible states we are not saved by works, and we are not saved by faith… that leaves two options: the sacraments and Grace… except that the sacraments ARE grace, so there’s only one left. At the same time, the following verses indicate that grace is what saves:
Romans 5:9 - we will be saved through Jesus’ Blood (not our faith or works)
1 Cor 1:18 - preaching of the cross is the power of God, the act of Christ on the Cross is the Grace which saves
Eph 2:5 - we’re saved by grace
Eph 2:8 - we’re saved by grace
2 Tim 1:9 - we’re saved according to God’s purpose and grace
Titus 3:5 - according to God’s mercy we are saved (I submit that mercy is part of God’s Grace)
John 3:17 - it is through Christ’s life and death that the world is saved
Acts 15:11 - by the Grace of Christ we’ll be saved
I do want to repeat, though, that none of this excludes the need for faith and it’s supporting Godly lifestyle.

For example, when we see “He who believes and is baptised” this refers to faith opening us to receive grace through a sacrament, not necessarily that either of those saves, but that they produce in us an acceptance of what saves: grace.

So, can you use your talents to summarize what it is that saves? one item of Grace alone? or is it Baptism and the sacraments where the blessed Trinity is present, or faith by works with work out your salvation with fear and trembling?

I think my first analogy answered this question. One thing (grace through Christ’s life and death) saves, but in order to accept that one thing we must have faith which is made living by Godly works.

Or just a commentary would suffice about how salvation is attained?

Paraphrased from the book “One Minute Wisdom”:
A man came to the master and said, “I believe in God, but what must I do to be saved?”
The master replied, “First: you must understand that nothing you have or do can make you worthy to be saved.”
“Yes?”
“And second: you must ACT as though you did not know the first.”

 

[JonNC]

=Brooke;5361825]Ok, so maybe they were concerned with it… but did that really mean they had to leave the Church?

Luther had one choice, in order to stay in the Church: Recant. Regardless of the abuses you see around you; recant.

Romans16:17-18 “17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.”

We can, of course, disagree about who was causing division 500 years ago, and the answer is probably both sides. The real question is, how do we overcome our differences today?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Gariel of 12;

As a Catholic I have no problem with Grace, Faith, Works, Justification, Salvation, Scripture, Sacred Tradition, Redemption, Born (anothen = from above) again by Baptism etc. All these items are biblical. What I do not find as biblical is the term “Sola” or the term “Alone” being used to describe one of these as the only one thing to salvation, other than Jesus himself. That is why Jesus instituted the Sacraments so that he can be present to save all of humanity in each stage of life. Now that I entered another term Sacraments, which is the visible sign instituted by Jesus himself in order to part Grace to the believer.

Gabriel of 12,
Would it not be correct to say that all of these things - “Faith, Works, Justification, Salvation, Scripture, Sacred Tradition, Redemption, Born (anothen = from above) again by Baptism etc” - are means of Grace? Could I not say Grace Alone, knowing that Grace includes all of these things?

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thank you much. you asked some deep points here, I’ll do my best to break it down and answer.

Grace is something that God gives to us. We’re not worthy of it, nor are we capable of earning it at all. Somehow, God chooses to knock on everyone’s front door and offer it to them. However, there is a problem… everyone’s front door is faith. People with no faith… well, unfortunately their doors are nailed shut. People who have faith, have a door… but there’s another problem: that front door doesn’t fit quite right… it needs something to help it open. Works are the sand paper and WD-40 that help us open that door. Thus works open the door (faith) through which Grace flows from God. The saving part is grace, but all three are essential in our ACCEPTANCE of that grace. As with anything, we always have the free will to reject God as well.

Thank you; for your talents very enlightening:thumbsup: The sand paper and wd-40 analogy gave me a “chuckle”, a very realistic analogy keep up the good work.
Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Would it not be correct to say that all of these things - “Faith, Works, Justification, Salvation, Scripture, Sacred Tradition, Redemption, Born (anothen = from above) again by Baptism etc” - are means of Grace? Could I not say Grace Alone, knowing that Grace includes all of these things?

Jon

Greetings in Christ JonNC, it is good to hear from you The problem I have with Grace alone is that it can lead one to reject these others of how Grace freely comes to us. These are but a few examples, we have not mentioned Prayer, fasting, charity but these are works where Grace abounds.

We cannot forget that God freely gives his Grace upon whom he wills, Saul of Tarsaus comes to mind. In other words God has a flock that is not of this fold, where his Grace abounds. This is not to leave those out who have not excercised the examples given that give Grace, “Ghandi” a hindu comes to mind who lived his life by Christian morals but did not profess to be a Christian. His Works of charity and love displayed God’s Grace.

By these comments, one can see how Protestants can view these mysteries where Grace abounds. To accept Grace Only, can short change one from recieving the “full deposit of faith”. I must agree with you that Grace is included in all of the above and then some.

It is like the mystery of the blessed Sacrament, Where else can man today visit, see, taste, smell, hear the Word of God, but in his Eucharist. Yet this Grace how Jesus comes to us takes visible form, by actions in order that God can make himself present to the faithful who believe and see Jesus who grants these eternal life.

Could we say that in the “New Covenant” God parts his grace to those who take an “action” by just turning towards him. In this turning action is where we meet God, from the Works of Jesus who saves us.

IF? the statement “Sola Gratia Salva” gives credence and support to the Work of Jesus Christ that brings the believer into the New Covenant with God, where Grace is parted in the above examples, then I could agree with “Sola Gratia Salva” through these. But in Evangelicals circles to date, “Sola Gratia” reject the New Covenant works of the Sacraments of Jesus where God and man meet so as to part his Grace to all his sons an daughters.

To take a word from the New Testament it is LOVE that conquers, and LOVE is God. Even the enemies of God are parted Grace for these Love their own. But what good is that, if no works are shown by Loving his enemy. This is Grace, Love of God and Love of Neighbor, works of faith being revealed by Grace (name removed by moderator)uted. The question is then? how does one recieve this powerful Grace? Grace alone? In every religion, including Evangelicals must take on a work or action inorder to recieve this Grace, by confessing Jesus as their personal savior and the like of being “Born again”, thus my point Grace alone does not suffice without the action or turning towards God. As “Prometheus” stated in his example of “Jesus standing at the door knocking” wanting to give us God’s grace, all we have to do is take an action and open the door of our hearts to God.

The door is opened to Grace through the Sacraments instituted by Jesus himself who is always present in these, then faith, works, salvation comes from Grace by the opening of the door to “Sola Gratia Salva”.

You see, without Man facing God (in the list of examples above), how can God give him Grace? This is the freewill cooperating with the will of God that all be saved.

Peace be with you

P.s sorry for the long post Jon, I love speaking with you

 

[JonNC]

Greetings in Christ JonNC, it is good to hear from you The problem I have with Grace alone is that it can lead one to reject these others of how Grace freely comes to us. These are but a few examples, we have not mentioned Prayer, fasting, charity but these are works where Grace abounds.

We cannot forget that God freely gives his Grace upon whom he wills, Saul of Tarsaus comes to mind. In other words God has a flock that is not of this fold, where his Grace abounds. This is not to leave those out who have not excercised the examples given that give Grace, “Ghandi” a hindu comes to mind who lived his life by Christian morals but did not profess to be a Christian. His Works of charity and love displayed God’s Grace.

By these comments, one can see how Protestants can view these mysteries where Grace abounds. To accept Grace Only, can short change one from recieving the “full deposit of faith”. I must agree with you that Grace is included in all of the above and then some.

It is like the mystery of the blessed Sacrament, Where else can man today visit, see, taste, smell, hear the Word of God, but in his Eucharist. Yet this Grace how Jesus comes to us takes visible form, by actions in order that God can make himself present to the faithful who believe and see Jesus who grants these eternal life.

Could we say that in the “New Covenant” God parts his grace to those who take an “action” by just turning towards him. In this turning action is where we meet God, from the Works of Jesus who saves us.

IF? the statement “Sola Gratia Salva” gives credence and support to the Work of Jesus Christ that brings the believer into the New Covenant with God, where Grace is parted in the above examples, then I could agree with “Sola Gratia Salva” through these. But in Evangelicals circles to date, “Sola Gratia” reject the New Covenant works of the Sacraments of Jesus where God and man meet so as to part his Grace to all his sons an daughters.

To take a word from the New Testament it is LOVE that conquers, and LOVE is God. Even the enemies of God are parted Grace for these Love their own. But what good is that, if no works are shown by Loving his enemy. This is Grace, Love of God and Love of Neighbor, works of faith being revealed by Grace (name removed by moderator)uted. The question is then? how does one recieve this powerful Grace? Grace alone? In every religion, including Evangelicals must take on a work or action inorder to recieve this Grace, by confessing Jesus as their personal savior and the like of being “Born again”, thus my point Grace alone does not suffice without the action or turning towards God. As “Prometheus” stated in his example of “Jesus standing at the door knocking” wanting to give us God’s grace, all we have to do is take an action and open the door of our hearts to God.

The door is opened to Grace through the Sacraments instituted by Jesus himself who is always present in these, then faith, works, salvation comes from Grace by the opening of the door to “Sola Gratia Salva”.

You see, without Man facing God (in the list of examples above), how can God give him Grace? This is the freewill cooperating with the will of God that all be saved.

Peace be with you

P.s sorry for the long post Jon, I love speaking with you

When I was a kid, we had a copy of that picture of Jesus knocking at the door in the front hallway, so it is burned into my memory. Lutherans would say that even the ability to discern Christ’s knocking is a gift of grace, as those enslaved to sin cannot choose to do so on their own. All through our lives, we have the opportunity, through free will to shut that door, as well.
Thank God for these gifts of Grace - the sacraments and other things you mentioned - that help us grow in Him, call us back when we falter and sin, and continue to participate in our sanctification, to spread His grace to those around us, and at the time of our death, bring us home to Him.

Jon

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Thank you, most informative

I entirely disagree. The bible clearly defines that we are saved by GRACE alone for a reason, because it isn’t from faith – which is a characteristic of the self. Grace flows from God, it is something external to ourselves. Grace is salvation that we can do nothing to attain.

Thanks for the compliment ​

As for the comment about faith - an acute observation: but, faith is a gift from God - not something from the self. Our entire salvation is a work of God, as much so as the creation “in the beginning”. It just “happens” (definitely not an appropriate word ) that God includes our activity in His. If you write a post, that is entirely your doing, entirely God’s doing, entirely the typewriter’s doing, entirely the doing of your hands, entirely the doing of the causes that bring these causes into being (God excepted). All are causes of the post - but the effect which is the post is related to these different causes in different ways.

Faith is entirely from God not as from one cause among others - He is not one constellation among many constellations, one author among many authors, one good among other goods - but because it is super-natural; it is above the capacities of ungraced nature to elicit. Unless God acts to give us faith, in a sovereignly free & unqualified act of Divine kindness to which of ourselves we have no claim, we cannot have faith. It must come as a free gift, or not come at all.

So AFAICS we are saying the very same thing in the very same sense - but drawing very different conclusions. Quite how,

This is what the catholic church has taught for 1,976 years. Welcome to the flock

That last bit , I don’t understand ​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

promethius;5357484:

As noted in the joint declaration on justification, Catholics and the bulk of protestants actually agree that it is by God’s Grace that we are saved, as we are unworthy in and of ourselves of meriting salvation (either by faith or by works, they are not enough). Rather faith is the conduit by which Grace enters our lives, and holy lifestyle is the means by which we grow our faith into a strong living body.

I like this analogy. I think this is something most Catholics and Lutherans (and others) can agree on.

And I truly think this is what Luther and the Lutheran reformers were concerned with. I think they were, at least in part, reacting (say over-reacting if you wish) to practices of their time that appeared to be works salvation. The Church may not have sanctioned it, but it was there nonetheless.
It isn’t there anymore, and we need to build on efforts like the JDDJ to continue to bring us together.

Jon

IMHO, that concern of the Reformers is essential to the meaning of the Good News if it is to be good news. It does not belong to the 16th century alone; it is always needing said, “in season and out of season”, whether the Church is (more or less) healthy, or isn’t.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Ok, so maybe they were concerned with it… but did that really mean they had to leave the Church?

Romans16:17-18 “17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.”

John 8:46-47 " 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

The Church was guided by the apostles anyway, right?

John 20:19-23 "19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

1 corinthians 1:10 “10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.”

Acts 1:7-8 "7He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Unfortunately, Apostolic character & spirit is perhaps not the the most obvious feature of the Church before the Reformation. A more appropriate text might be this from Isaiah 1:​

• Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzzi’ah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezeki’ah, kings of Judah.
• Isa 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: "Sons have I reared and brought up, but they have rebelled against me.
• Isa 1:3 The ox knows its owner, and the *** its master’s crib; but Israel does not know, my people does not understand."
• Isa 1:4 Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, sons who deal corruptly! They have forsaken the LORD, they have despised the Holy One of Israel, they are utterly estranged.
• Isa 1:5 Why will you still be smitten, that you continue to rebel? The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
• Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and bleeding wounds; they are not pressed out, or bound up, or softened with oil.

What is the good of beginning well, if there is no perseverance in well-doing ? The Galatians began well - but St. Paul found fault with what they had become: he did not ignore that, in favour of what they had been. As for having authority, what good is it, if it is divorced from the qualities of character required of Christians ? Pleading the privileges God has given to the Church in the past is not going to sanctify evils that develop in it at a later stage - those evils have to be repented of, turned from, corrected: God is not mocked, not even by His Church.

 

[Brooke]

I would not say that that is the correct verbage. We are saved 100% by grace because sin is something we cannot overcome. Nothing we can do or have of our own accord is able to save us.

However, faith is the vessel through which Grace flows into our lives, and works is kind of like the fertilizer that helps to grow our faith, in turn opening us to receive God’s grace.

ooo… very nicely put. =]

 

[Brooke]

I’m not a Christian, so I don’t have moral opinions on ecclesial matters. On the other hand, I think Lutherans would say that what he wanted was right.

Of course Lutherans would think he was right… why else would they follow him and leave the catholic church. but just beause They felt it was right doesnt mean it actually Was right…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Actually, I’m all too afraid that you’re serious. Do you really think that failure to mature into one language standard is comparable to acquisition of a different language standard? Do you really think that one language standard can be superior to another? By what measure? Its origin among white people?

Well I’ll see you at the Language Sensitivity Political Correctness Feelings Seminar next week. Give me a break, Eleve. Cheesy. Do you think that “true dat” is actually acceptable vernacular speech? LOL…Try putting that in a college thesis. And you’re the one that brings in the “white people” comment, not me. And don’t worry yourself too much, I WASN’T serious. I was poking fun at the title of this thread. “Nuh uh” is about as colloquial as one could get in a Catholic Forum. So you’d be ok with a thread title like “Oh…my…god! Like, I’m totally converting to protestantism, totally!” And people saying, "I’m straight up pimpin’ " is considered academic speech to you? :dancing:A lot of the kids in my class who are immature like this say things like “home-slice” and “no wayyy!” Valley Girl style. And they’re all WHITE. It’s not about race, it’s about colloquial language that’s tacky. That’s all. You’re one of those P.C. patrollers who just sees racism and sexism and every ‘ism’ under the sun in anyone. Let your hair down and get a sense of humor, homeboy!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That is just wrong… I seriously did not believe the way I wrote the title of my thread would bother most people.

To all out there: My sincere apologies for my ‘immature’ writing format.

Fear not, Brooke. I was just joking about the title. Eleve saw racism, intolerance, and cruelty in it. I was just kidding with you about your verbage. You’re fine! But I’ll tell you how the sensitivity training went with Eleve…

 

[altabz]

Ok, so maybe they were concerned with it… but did that really mean they had to leave the Church?

Romans16:17-18 “17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.”

That verse in Romans is an obvious Warning !!! it was an event to come which is division. It is not important of who’s who and when it will come that’s a fact. It will happen sooner or later it’s just like a movie guys the pope,luther are the actors and the issue’s are the plot. We can’t avoid that coming if i’m not wrong it’s written in revelations