Faith Alone & James 4:18

[heisenburg]

“If any man knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, sins.”

How do these two mesh together. It seems to me this coincides very well with the Catholic Understanding of Having Faith AND being obedient.

It does not seem to work well with Faith Alone.

Not boding an argument, just asking a quesiton

In Christ

 

[JonNC]

“If any man knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, sins.”

How do these two mesh together. It seems to me this coincides very well with the Catholic Understanding of Having Faith AND being obedient.

It does not seem to work well with Faith Alone.

Not boding an argument, just asking a quesiton

In Christ

Just as sometimes non-catholics misunderstand Catholic teachings about the importance of works, I think sometimes Catholics misunderstand our view of the importance of works.
From a Lutheran perspective, we are not “off the hook” when it comes to works. The Augsburg Confession is quite clear: “Our teachers teach in addition that it is necessary to do good works, not that we should trust to merit grace by them but because it is the will of God.”

Faith without works is dead, because we cannot be disobedient to God.

 

[Philthy]

“If any man knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, sins.”
It does not seem to work well with Faith Alone.
Not boding an argument, just asking a quesiton
In Christ

I dont see the problem. Sola Fide teaches that we are SAVED by faith alone and the fact that we may SIN, while regretable, does not cause us to lose our salvation.

 

[vrlobo88]

certain things trump certain other things in the Bible…in parts of the OT, the murder of non-believers (non-Israelits) is promoted, but Jesus’ teaching against murder trumps this…

what is the trump card? logic. the trouble is, not everyone agrees on what is logical.

what good does faith do without works? if we truly believe the message of Christ, then mustn’t we prove it? mustn’t we put our beliefs to practice? just believing isn’t going to better this world. social justice does.

this doesn’t mean that a certain number of works are needed for salvation or that some outweigh others, etc…we can only do our best to serve God…the rest is in His hands…but we must do our BEST.

 

[MarcoPolo]

“If any man knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, sins.”

How do these two mesh together. It seems to me this coincides very well with the Catholic Understanding of Having Faith AND being obedient.

It does not seem to work well with Faith Alone.

You are correct, it does not work well with “faith alone” in the sense condemned by James 2.

Some Protestants insist we must have good works, but use semantic variances that avoid use of “faith & works”. I think there is a psychology of just not wanting to use the same phrase as Catholics…but in a large sense, they teach the same as Catholics on the matter.

 

[Verita]

You are correct, it does not work well with “faith alone” in the sense condemned by James 2.

Some Protestants insist we must have good works, but use semantic variances that avoid use of “faith & works”. I think there is a psychology of just not wanting to use the same phrase as Catholics…but in a large sense, they teach the same as Catholics on the matter.

If you cannot say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. How you say things is VERY important, perhaps even as important as what you mean by it. The Catholic Church has learned this.

Many, even most, protestant could be shown to actually believe something very close to what the Catholic Church teaches. But what they SAY they believe is often entirely different. And this contradiction can have dire consequences. I have had discussions with people who were raised in protestant churches and sincerely believe that they don’t have to do ANYTHING and they certainly don’t have to do good works or follow any commandments or even confess their sins to anyone. I have been told this by a woman who claimed to be a Baptist. She lived with her boyfriend, had sex whenever she wanted, never intended to get married though she did intend to have children out of wedlock. And she told me quite plainly that it didn’t matter what she did as long as she had faith in God. I am certain that her Baptist Church never really taught this. But this is what she thought was meant by “Faith Alone”. That is why the teaching is so dangerous. People’s souls are put at risk when they follow the exact wording of the teaching to its logical conclusion.

 

[MonFrere]

Some Protestants insist we must have good works, but use semantic variances that avoid use of “faith & works”. …but in a large sense, they teach the same as Catholics on the matter.

I agree Marco. I think in the ecumenical dialogues the Catholic Church is having with various Protestant Confessions is bringing up our similarities and differences in the topic of justification. I think the “works” part of the understanding is where we have common ground and the real issue is in vocabulary. If certain terms mean “X” but doesn’t include “Y” in the context of “Z” then there can be agreement between us. What our Lutheran friend wrote sounds pretty acceptable – but I’d have to go through a series of questions to see if the our understandings matched. I definitely DO get a sense of a different “vocabulary” and word preference going on and for accurate communication patience is necessary to make sure everything is understood accurately.

I think the real issue with the Protestants is their concept of a forensic component to justification. Is their a true change in the soul of a justified person (is it “indeed” holy) or is it simply covered with the “foreign” righteousness of Christ. The infused vs imputed debate is still an issue of true division. But “works” is still an issue that seems to have been solved in the higher echelons of ecumenical dialogue, but it doesn’t seem to have trickled down to the average lay person and forums like this one.

Perhaps someone more well versed on this topic than myself can provide more insight but the gross misrepresentation that Catholics believe their works save them - in the sense we can demand of God salvation because of our works is really a thing of the past.

MonFrere

 

[Pwrlftr]

I have had discussions with people who were raised in protestant churches and sincerely believe that they don’t have to do ANYTHING and they certainly don’t have to do good works or follow any commandments or even confess their sins to anyone. I have been told this by a woman who claimed to be a Baptist. She lived with her boyfriend, had sex whenever she wanted, never intended to get married though she did intend to have children out of wedlock. And she told me quite plainly that it didn’t matter what she did as long as she had faith in God. I am certain that her Baptist Church never really taught this. But this is what she thought was meant by “Faith Alone”. That is why the teaching is so dangerous. People’s souls are put at risk when they follow the exact wording of the teaching to its logical conclusion.

I have had discussions with Catholics that thought they could do whatever they wanted and just make a confession with no intent to repent and all would be forgiven. Obviously this isn’t what your church teaches.

Is your church’s sacramental system dangerous because some don’t understand it?

 

[MonFrere]

I have had discussions with Catholics that thought they could do whatever they wanted and just make a confession with no intent to repent and all would be forgiven. Obviously this isn’t what your church teaches.

Is your church’s sacramental system dangerous because some don’t understand it?

Actually, on this point I agree with our Protestant brother. We don’t judge a religion (or anything for that matter) on those that abuse the system. It’s merit is based upon its successes.

MonFrere

 

[Pwrlftr]

We don’t judge a religion (or anything for that matter) on those that abuse the system.

MonFrere

I apparently couldn’t say it better myself.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I have had discussions with Catholics that thought they could do whatever they wanted and just make a confession with no intent to repent and all would be forgiven. Obviously this isn’t what your church teaches.

Is your church’s sacramental system dangerous because some don’t understand it?

Indeed…the trueness of the Church is not measured by those who don’t practice its teaching. The system itself is not dangerous. It is what Christ set up. It is possible better teaching methods must be employed. But the real enemy in this is, of course, Satan.

 

[JonNC]

If you cannot say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. How you say things is VERY important, perhaps even as important as what you mean by it. The Catholic Church has learned this.

Many, even most, protestant could be shown to actually believe something very close to what the Catholic Church teaches. But what they SAY they believe is often entirely different. And this contradiction can have dire consequences. I have had discussions with people who were raised in protestant churches and sincerely believe that they don’t have to do ANYTHING and they certainly don’t have to do good works or follow any commandments or even confess their sins to anyone. I have been told this by a woman who claimed to be a Baptist. She lived with her boyfriend, had sex whenever she wanted, never intended to get married though she did intend to have children out of wedlock. And she told me quite plainly that it didn’t matter what she did as long as she had faith in God. I am certain that her Baptist Church never really taught this. But this is what she thought was meant by “Faith Alone”. That is why the teaching is so dangerous. People’s souls are put at risk when they follow the exact wording of the teaching to its logical conclusion.

You are absolutely right! The danger of Faith Alone is that it gets turned into “cheap grace”, just as the idea of faith and works is easilty turned into “I get merit salvation through my works”, or “I’m more saved than you because I did this or that”, or worse, “I can buy my salvation through indulgences”.

I believe that we are saved by faith through grace, and not by works. But that doesn’t mean that I can just claim to believe, and then not act on the gift of grace purchased on the cross by Christ himself. Faith Alone means that I know I am saved by the efforts of Christ on the cross, and I don’t have to worry about did I do enough to merit heaven. He merited it for me. Now, joyfully, I respond to His call to do all manner of good works, not because it saves me, but because He wants me to.

And if I don’t respond with the good works Christ wants of me, how can I then claim to have faith in him? And if I don’t have faith…

You are right, sometimes non-catholics respond with words that are intended to not sound Catholic. And Catholics sometimes avoiud words that sound “protestant”. I say enough of that. If I sound Catholic, so be it. “Here I stand, I can do no other. God help me”.

Blessings

 

[holdencaulfield]

I think this is another good passage from St. James:

“You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?” (James 2:20)

 

[PC_Master]

certain things trump certain other things in the Bible…in parts of the OT, the murder of non-believers (non-Israelits) is promoted, but Jesus’ teaching against murder trumps this…

Technical detail – murder is a premeditated killing, usually involving hate or other specific focus on killing an individual. War (as was done on non-Israelites) is indeed killing, but is not murder.

As for the subject of the thread – salvation is through faith, no question. However, as Jesus illustrated in his parables, the fruit of a true believer is good works. Remember, once you’re saved, there’s a change in you – you’re spiritually reborn, and the holy spirit indwells you. This provides a new view of life, among other things, and a desire to serve God, thus resulting in good works. Therefore, good works may be a sign of salvation, but are not what causes salvation. Salvation is through grace (undeserved favor) from God.

 

[heisenburg]

Ahh… but there in lies a little bit of a catch…

We are initially saved by GRACE alone (eph 2:8), not faith alone. you need to have faith, but works don’t matter. The CC agrees 100% with that statement. We are saved by GRACE alone.

Grace initially saves us… but to keep in his good graces, we have to have faith, and do what is right. This is of course a problem if an individual believes in OSAS. To them, once we are saved, nothing can change that.

My point that I am trying to make is that to those that say you don’t have to do any of those things are wrong because scripture right here says that by NOT doing the right thing, it causes sin.

It isn’t talking about how works are a sign, or that it is just manifested by faith, it simply states in no uncertain terms… If you know what is right, and do no do it… you sin. If doing right was just a sign of ones faith, then it would necessarily follow that NOT doing is a sin. It would just mean that there are few or no signs, but we could still have faith. And by definition, still saved. However, again, this is not what scripture in this passage says…

It does not say doing the right thing is a sign of Faith, or NOT doing the right thing is a lack of a sign… it simply states Not doing what is right is a sin. No qualifiers, no else statements… just a strait if… then.

And, as we all know, anything unclean will not enter heaven. If you habitually DON’T do what is right, then you habitually sin. All the faith in the world wont save you…

Grace may have initially saved you, but if all you have after that is faith, and you do not do what is right, then you are still under the bane of sin.

Maybe I shoulda been clearer on my supposition, but that is what I am driving at.

In Christ

 

[Verita]

I have had discussions with Catholics that thought they could do whatever they wanted and just make a confession with no intent to repent and all would be forgiven. Obviously this isn’t what your church teaches.

Is your church’s sacramental system dangerous because some don’t understand it?

I have met Catholics who swore they were taught in Catholic school that they don’t need to confess any sins at all as long as they have faith. So yes, there are people who abuse teachings in all Churches.

However, there is a difference. In the Catholic case, the teachings are there in their precisely correct state and are made available by various sources. When Catholics believe the wrong things, it’s because their teachers or priests are teaching things that can be proven to be contrary to established Catholic teaching. It is the fault entirely of the teachers and Priests who water down Catholic teachings that people believe such nonsense. And those teachers and priests will certainly be held accountable for the people they mislead.

For protestants, however, personal interpretation is of great importance to many denominations. I come from one such. Pastors use such simplified phrases as “Faith Alone” and the “Bible Alone” and then people are invited to decide what they think it all means. True, they are supposed to always believe what the Bible teaches, but it’s amazing how many differing beliefs you can support from the Bible. This is an inherently dangerous method. Many people simply believe what their pastor says, many people apply simple logic from what their pastor says. “If all I need to be saved is faith… then I don’t have to worry about doing anything else as long as I believe in God.” It happens a lot. And it’s happening more and more often by the younger generations raised in protestant churches. I know. I watched it happen to many of my friends.

 

[PC_Master]

We are initially saved by GRACE alone (eph 2:8), not faith alone. you need to have faith, but works don’t matter. The CC agrees 100% with that statement. We are saved by GRACE alone.

By grace – the salvation is an act of grace (undeserved favor). Through faith – by reason of having faith.

Grace initially saves us… but to keep in his good graces, we have to have faith,

So far I agree, though the nature of the transformation that occurs when the act of grace occurs is worth accounting for.

…and do what is right.

Do we have to do what is right to retain salvation? Or does scripture rather show that those who do retain salvation can be known by the works they do? I think the latter to be the case.

It isn’t talking about how works are a sign, or that it is just manifested by faith, it simply states in no uncertain terms… If you know what is right, and do no do it… you sin.

All men sin, both before and after salvation.

And, as we all know, anything unclean will not enter heaven. If you habitually DON’T do what is right, then you habitually sin. All the faith in the world wont save you…

And what is it that saves you in the first place? The blood of Christ covers over your transgressions, does it not? Having an additional blemish afterward doesn’t suddenly make you unfit to enter the kingdom, any more so than your status before made you unfit.

 

[heisenburg]

To you in Christ PC…

For starters, I wish to say I am happy you joined this discussion.

I think we are pretty much in agreement until I made the statement “And do what is right”. However, I would like to make a few comments on your statement “Do we HAVE to do what is right to retain salvation”

Now for some logic

1. I agree, Faith is an Integral part. you abso-smurfalutly have to have faith. But notice two things, Why did god create us? He Created us for Good Works in His name. Now, if all we have to do is have faith, then does that flow with why he created us? If He says I was created to do His good work, but I say yes, but I don’t HAVE to to be saved, is this not a counter intuitive response?

So, Which is more logical, say "I created you to do good works in my name, but you did not do it. However since you believed, i will save you?

or

“I created you to do good works in my name, but you did not do them. I know you believed in me, but since you were disobedient, you have chosen yourself over me?”

1. All will sin… Agree… thats why we have Christ’s Blood. When we do fail, we can ask for forgiveness. It’s one of the lovely perks of being Christian. God will restore us when we return to a fallen state.
2. Little thing called near occasion. God wants us to live a sin free life. (see point 2) So, why would God say I will save you if you have Faith, but you can continue sinning. By saying we don’t have to do those right things says just that. Why? Scripture says that not doing the right thing results in sin.

Why would God create a plan of salvation that leaves open the door to sin. By saying we don’t have to do what is right also says we are allowed to sin. Continually not doing the right thing puts you in a state of habitual sin, and thus, your salvation becomes in question. Why? because by saying you are still allowed to sin means you are still allowed to live in sin. This goes counter to scripture.

1. Knowing that NOT doing the right thing is a sin, which seems more logical. To preach we must have faith AND do what is right to be saved? or to say You must have faith, but you don’t have to do the right thing…
2. By saying we do not have to do what is right, we are saying our own wants are more important. It makes it a me centric relationship, not a Christ centric. This is because God wants us to do the right thing. That is why he created us. But to say “I know you created me for good works, but I don’t have to.” means we are saying what I want is more important. In other words… By saying I don’t have to, does that make God decrease, or Me.

If it is just a sign, how can it be a sin…

It really comes down to are we saved by being faithful and only occasionally being obedient when it suits us? or are we saved by having faith AND being obedient.

Hope that helps

In Christ

 

[PC_Master]

To you in Christ PC…

For starters, I wish to say I am happy you joined this discussion.

Well thanks. For my part, I’m also happy I’m a part of it, but moreso, I’m happy that you’re approaching and presenting your case calmly and with compassion. Frankly, with some of the posts here lately, I was getting a bit tired of this place. Thank you for tempering your response so that I am less tired of it.

So, Which is more logical, say "I created you to do good works in my name, but you did not do it. However since you believed, i will save you?

or

“I created you to do good works in my name, but you did not do them. I know you believed in me, but since you were disobedient, you have chosen yourself over me?”

I think this is the crux of the matter, and of our disagreement. I think the illustration you’ve presented is a -]flawed/-] less than ideal way of looking at the issue.

Instead, might I propose that the better way to look at it is this: The doing of good works, and the following of God’s teachings is the natural result of believing in Christ. Thus, while the works are not required to have the salvation, they will be found in those whom the salvation is found.

Though I know you may not agree, do you at least understand what I’m trying to say here? Instead of looking at good works as part of the cause of salvation, look at them as the necessary effect of it.

 

[JMBNH]

James 2:24 ‘You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone’

How much more obvious could it be?