Faith alone or Faith plus works?

[MissCee]

Protestants:

I am currently having a faith discussion with well-versed baptists boy… He is an excellent talker, but sometimes his explanations of what he believes loses me. Could you please explain where you stand and what scripture supports your view of Faith (or sometimes referred to as grace) alone? why do you think works effect salvation?

Catholics:

Likewise, I am having a hard time explaining the Catholic view on Faith alone versus Faith & Works. What scripture supports the Catholic view? and how do we interpret it?
Also, how do Catholics respond to Ephesians 2:8-10 that seems along with most of Romans that seems to promote the Protestant view of salvation?

All comments appreciated! ~ Cee

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Protestants:

I am currently having a faith discussion with well-versed baptists boy… He is an excellent talker, but sometimes his explanations of what he believes loses me. Could you please explain where you stand and what scripture supports your view of Faith (or sometimes referred to as grace) alone? why do you think works effect salvation?

Catholics:

Likewise, I am having a hard time explaining the Catholic view on Faith alone versus Faith & Works. What scripture supports the Catholic view? and how do we interpret it?
Also, how do Catholics respond to Ephesians 2:8-10 that seems along with most of Romans that seems to promote the Protestant view of salvation?

All comments appreciated! ~ Cee

Hello Cee,

Most of what I’ve seen about the discussion is only a difference of semantics.

Can one work their way into heaven? No.

Can one simply believe and remain in sin and get to heaven? No.

Faith is a gift from God, works is our response to His love for us. There are many type works, praying, reading scriptures, loving your neighbor, following God’s commandments, etc.

Catholics say, faith without works is dead (James 2:26). Protestants say, if you believe then good works will come about.

Living our faiths 24/7 is a works and I believe both Catholic and Protestants will agree that we should live our faiths 24/7.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Protestants:

I am currently having a faith discussion with well-versed baptists boy… He is an excellent talker, but sometimes his explanations of what he believes loses me. Could you please explain where you stand and what scripture supports your view of Faith (or sometimes referred to as grace) alone? why do you think works effect salvation?

Catholics:

Likewise, I am having a hard time explaining the Catholic view on Faith alone versus Faith & Works. What scripture supports the Catholic view? and how do we interpret it?
Also, how do Catholics respond to Ephesians 2:8-10 that seems along with most of Romans that seems to promote the Protestant view of salvation?

All comments appreciated! ~ Cee

Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee by training, so when he talked and wrote about the “law” (which we interpret as “works”), he meant the rigourous Mosaic law, along with all the embellishments added to it by generations of scribes and in later Jewish history, the Pharisees. In other words, they were trying to gain admission to heaven by obeying a multitude of laws, some major, some exceedingly petty.

When Paul wrote Romans, he was still by training and culture a Jew, coming from a Jewish background, writing to what was probably a mixture of Jews and gentiles in the newly formed church. So he had to address both parties.

It’s also worth noting here that the word “alone” in “faith alone” was actually added by Luther, and was not part of the original text.

The basic premise of the Church is that faith is the starting point, but from that faith God expects to see some works. Works of mercy, charity, forgiveness and so on. How we treat our neighbour.

Hence we have James for example pointing out that faith without works is dead.

Christ also pointed out that there were those whom He would condemn, since they failed to visit Him in prison, help Him when He was sick, or an orphan, or disabled, or whatever, since He would be present in the least of His brothers. That’s works. What He was saying was that there would be some who would think all they had to do was believe, and nothing more. Or their “works” would be of the wrong sort. In this respect the Inquisition comes to mind (for me, anyway).

And they’d be condemned for it.

Faith is merely the starting point. It may also be the finishing point, but God expects us to be doing something in between.

 

[rev_kevin]

Protestants:

I am currently having a faith discussion with well-versed baptists boy… He is an excellent talker, but sometimes his explanations of what he believes loses me. Could you please explain where you stand and what scripture supports your view of Faith (or sometimes referred to as grace) alone? why do you think works effect salvation?

Catholics:

Likewise, I am having a hard time explaining the Catholic view on Faith alone versus Faith & Works. What scripture supports the Catholic view? and how do we interpret it?
Also, how do Catholics respond to Ephesians 2:8-10 that seems along with most of Romans that seems to promote the Protestant view of salvation?

All comments appreciated! ~ Cee

We become Christians through God’s unmerited favor, not as the result of any effort, ability, intelligent choice or act of service of our part. However out of gratitude for this free gift, we will seek to help and serve others with kindness, love and gentleness, and not merely to please ourselves. While no action or work we do can help us obtain salvation, God’s intention is that our salvation will result in acts of service. We are not saved merely for our own benefit but to serve Christ. Remember we are God’s masterpiecs. Our salvation is something only God can do. Its his powerfull, creative work in su. If God considers us his masterpeices we dare not treat ourselves or others with disrespect or as inferior work.

 

[jimmy]

Protestants:

I am currently having a faith discussion with well-versed baptists boy… He is an excellent talker, but sometimes his explanations of what he believes loses me. Could you please explain where you stand and what scripture supports your view of Faith (or sometimes referred to as grace) alone? why do you think works effect salvation?

Catholics:

Likewise, I am having a hard time explaining the Catholic view on Faith alone versus Faith & Works. What scripture supports the Catholic view? and how do we interpret it?
Also, how do Catholics respond to Ephesians 2:8-10 that seems along with most of Romans that seems to promote the Protestant view of salvation?

All comments appreciated! ~ Cee

Just curious, why does it have to be either faith alone, or faith plus works? As James2 says, faith without works dead. The devils have faith but they are in hell. The assumption or implication of ‘faith plus works’ is that there is a division between Grace and works. Why can’t we express it in a more synergistic way so that faith and works are a single complex. Divine Grace works throughout our whole person to transform us into the likeness of God. Consequently our actions are not seperated from Grace and faith, but are spurred by them. This is the meaning of Eph.2:8-10. It is not to say that what we do doesn’t matter. If that were the case we would have to abandon Christ who seperated the goats from the lambs in Matt.25. He welcomed the lambs into His kingdom because they had fed Him when He was hungry and grave Him water when He was thirsty. The goats on the other hand were condemned because they didn’t give Him food when He was hungry and water when He was thirsty. The fact is that action is part of being a Christian and through it we draw closer to God.

Maybe we shouldn’t make such a division between Grace and nature. Maybe the west isn’t comfortable with it, but it is the problem that is common to both the protestant and the western Catholic arguement about faith. The division between nature and Grace implies that the actions of man are purely the actions of man. The west really needs to recover the concept of deification. It implies a union of our human nature with the divine nature is such a way that we share in all the properties of divinity. It starts in this life and continues into the next. This also implies that our actions are not ours alone but they are an example of God acting through man.

 

[Third_Day]

Catholics:
I am having a hard time explaining the Catholic view on Faith alone versus Faith & Works. What scripture supports the Catholic view? and how do we interpret it?
Also, how do Catholics respond to Ephesians 2:8-10 that seems along with most of Romans that seems to promote the Protestant view of salvation?

All comments appreciated! ~ Cee

Eph 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

We are saved by grace from God. We cannot save ourselves. This grace is a free gift from God so we cannot boast as if we somehow earned our salvation by doing works.

The Jews believed that they could be saved by doing works of the Old Covenant, the works of the Mosaic Law like circumcision, dietary laws and keeping the festivals. Those are the “works” that Paul is talking about.
Paul is saying that because of Christ we are now saved by grace not works of the old Mosaic Law

What else does Paul say?
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” Gal 5:6
Noice that Paul does not say faith “alone” but working through love. How do we love God?

1 John 5:2-3 : This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome"

Keeping the commandments are necesary works of love. Ask your friend if he can be saved if he does not keep the commandments. Ask him if he can love God without keeping God’s commandments.

.

 

[Xavierlives]

Hello Cee,

Most of what I’ve seen about the discussion is only a difference of semantics.

Can one work their way into heaven? No.

Can one simply believe and remain in sin and get to heaven? No.

Faith is a gift from God, works is our response to His love for us. There are many type works, praying, reading scriptures, loving your neighbor, following God’s commandments, etc.

Catholics say, faith without works is dead (James 2:26). Protestants say, if you believe then good works will come about.

Living our faiths 24/7 is a works and I believe both Catholic and Protestants will agree that we should live our faiths 24/7.

I think I get to say I agree with you.

This might be a first!

 

[shawn38]

Protestants:

I am currently having a faith discussion with well-versed baptists boy… He is an excellent talker, but sometimes his explanations of what he believes loses me. Could you please explain where you stand and what scripture supports your view of Faith (or sometimes referred to as grace) alone? why do you think works effect salvation?

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Particular attention to verse 10. We are not saved by works, but saved first and then born unto good works. If you love God, that love will manifest itself through your good works as you glorify God.

Romans 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

 

[shawn38]

Hello Cee,

Can one simply believe and remain in sin and get to heaven? No.

Because he did not live in sin and nor perform any works than simply believe, the thief on the cross was saved. He believed and that was credited to him.

 

[dnu]

We become Christians through God’s unmerited favor, not as the result of any effort, ability, intelligent choice or act of service of our part.

Too bad there is justification neither in the Bible nor the Early Church for that position. Only in the teachings of men.

I pray that you come home to the only Church that Jesus ever established.

 

[Canto]

Also, how do Catholics respond to Ephesians 2:8-10

they key word is 10

Eph 2:**10 ** For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

So God has created good works for us to walk in
If we don’t walk in these works will we still get to heaven
St James says we are justifed by works and not by faith alone

Some Protestants believe that if they profess Christ they are guaranteed of heaven no matter what, with salvation a one time event not a process. Others say if you believe then works will come naturally but this seems to deny one’s free will.

St Paul says (1 Cor 13) you can have all faith, but even with all faith, if you have not charity you are nothing.

St James bangs on about good works and charity and how faith alone doesn’t justifiy giving Old Testament examples.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

As Christians we must follow the law of Christ

Rom 13:10 The love of our neighbour worketh no evil. Love therefore is the fulfilling of the law.

James 2:8 If then you fulfil the royal law, according to the scriptures: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; you do well.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

When aksed how to get into heaven Jesus didn’t respond just believe in me, he said keep the commandmant above all love of neighbour (i.e. everyone).

Justification is a process. We are justifed by grave via faith, but as we continue along the path we work out as St Paul notes our salvation in fear and trembeling careful not to fall from the vine and wither.

Titus 3:8 It is a faithful saying. And these things I will have thee affirm constantly, that they who believe in God may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:14 And let our men also learn to excel in good works for necessary uses: that they be not unfruitful.

Your best be is to look at the Catechism or for something more to the point the Compendium to the Catechism.

The Compendium is below
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#Gods%20Salvation:%20Law%20and%20Grace

ch3 #415 onwards

 

[Third_Day]

shawn38;6224824]Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

through the **washing of rebirth **and renewal by the Holy Spirit, That is Baptism which is a necessary work

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Particular attention to verse 10. We are not saved by works, but saved first and then born unto good works. If you love God, that love will manifest itself through your good works as you glorify God.

Catholics agree that we are not saved by works alone. It is Faith plus works. As Paul says “faith working through love” But what if you do not do good works? Does that mean that you were never saved to begin with?

Romans 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

What do you think Paul means by the word “works”. What kind of works is Paul talking about?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Because he did not live in sin and nor perform any works than simply believe, the thief on the cross was saved. He believed and that was credited to him.

Come on shawn. He professed His belief and died shortly after, how much time for anything else did he have? Want to get technical, he witnessed his faith from his cross, to the other thief and those who witnessed their crucifixions.

Now let’s discuss normal circumstances. If one believes that Christ was the Messiah, but for whatever reasons, continues to live in sin, isn’t that taking God’s love for granted and they could be endangering their salvation? Sound’s awful ‘lukewarm’ to me, to say the least.

You use the term ‘saved’. What does one have to do to be ‘saved’? Believe in Him. Once someone believes in Him, they should keep His commandments, which is a works. They should pray, which is a works. They should worship Him, which is a work. etc. etc.

Faith is a gift from God. Works is our response to His love, whether one believes it comes naturally or consciously. Grace is gift from God for how we walk the walk, or do His works.

 

[Canto]

Because he did not live in sin and nor perform any works than simply believe, the thief on the cross was saved. He believed and that was credited to him.

If he did not live in sin why is he called a thief?
We don’t know the whole story, maybe he met Christ beforehand and was baptised, he seemd to know a bit?
Christ was being derided and he stood up and rebuked them - a good work!
Christ was not yet ressurected, so was the theif in heaven that day?

 

[mmmcounts]

The Jews believed that they could be saved by doing works of the Old Covenant, the works of the Mosaic Law like circumcision, dietary laws and keeping the festivals. Those are the “works” that Paul is talking about.
Paul is saying that because of Christ we are now saved by grace not works of the old Mosaic Law.

Is this meant to imply that there are works not of the old Mosaic law by which you are now saved?

 

[Third_Day]

Because he did not live in sin and nor perform any works than simply believe, the thief on the cross was saved. He believed and that was credited to him.

The thief did more than just “believe”.
His repentance was a good work
His admittance of sin was a good work
His humility was a good work
The good thief was not to be saved by faith alone.

 

[jimmy]

The Catholics on this thread should stop counting good works, and the protestants should realize that ‘faith alone’ is antibiblical because James says clearly that it is not by ‘faith alone’. Catholics, why are you counting the works of the thief? The question is the union of the will of the thief with that of Christ.

 

[Third_Day]

Is this meant to imply that there are works not of the old Mosaic law by which you are now saved?

The moral laws of the Old Covenant are still in effect. Paul even says so
Romans 2:13 “ For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified”

To remain in Christ there are necessary works such as keeping the commandments. These works are not of our own doing but are done through grace from God.

 

[Third_Day]

The Catholics on this thread should stop counting good works, and the protestants should realize that ‘faith alone’ is antibiblical because James says clearly that it is not by ‘faith alone’. Catholics, why are you counting the works of the thief? The question is the union of the will of the thief with that of Christ.

It proves that we are not saved by faith alone. To be in union with Christ is to do His will which is a work of love.

 

[Madaglan]

The thief did more than just “believe”.
His repentance was a good work
His admittance of sin was a good work
His humility was a good work
The good thief was not to be saved by faith alone.

I believe the thief also defends Jesus against the words of the unrepentant thief. (will have to check on that to be sure though)