Faith alone or Faith plus works?

[Madaglan]

The thief did more than just “believe”.
His repentance was a good work
His admittance of sin was a good work
His humility was a good work
The good thief was not to be saved by faith alone.

Something interesting about the repentant thief is that in at least one gospel account he is described in the plural (i.e. with the other thief) as cursing Jesus on the cross. There is ground, I believe, for suggesting that something profound happened within the heart of the thief between cursing Jesus and then repenting.

 

[MissCee]

Thank you all so much for your responses. They really are helping me sort out scripture and interpretations and perspectives.

Just to touch on what a few of y’all have said:

• The example of the thief on the cross is a very good one and is actually something he brought up. It follows as the perfect example after hearing the “3 Ps” of Salvation. A complete repentance followed by excepting Jesus as his savior (supposedly without good works, just by the grace of God)… So it will be interesting to see what he says back to that.

-Thank you to the Protestants and Catholics who have provided both Scripture and brief summaries of how that supports the faith. I really appreciate the variety of thoughts. (I hope people continue to post).
**
-Just another thought for both Catholics and Protestants, the idea of salvation (or how we attain it) causes me the most trouble and it is where most of this discussion comes from. Now my well-versed friend is very convinced that a person who has excepted Jesus into his etc should be confident that he is going to heaven and believes that since Catholics are not sure and question is they are “saved” that that intern works against our salvation. Any thoughts? and why do each believe the way they do?**

Thanks! ~ Cee

 

[Third_Day]

-Just another thought for both Catholics and Protestants, the idea of salvation (or how we attain it) causes me the most trouble and it is where most of this discussion comes from. Now my well-versed friend is very convinced that a person who has excepted Jesus into his etc should be confident that he is going to heaven and believes that since Catholics are not sure and question is they are “saved” that that intern works against our salvation. Any thoughts? and why do each believe the way they do?

Thanks! ~ Cee

Catholics have a moral assurance that we are going to heaven if we are in the state of grace. If we have no mortal sin on our soul, we are assured of salvation at that moment. However we have free will and we can fall from grace and separate ourselves from God and lose our salvation.
Your friend is wrong if he believes that all he has to do is “accept Jesus” and he is absolutely assured of eternal life. That is found nowhere in scripture.
As Catholics we know that the best path to attain salvation is in the Catholic Church because we have all of the sacraments.

 

[MissCee]

Catholics have a moral assurance that we are going to heaven if we are in the state of grace. If we have no mortal sin on our soul, we are assured of salvation at that moment. However we have free will and we can fall from grace and separate ourselves from God and lose our salvation.
Your friend is wrong if he believes that all he has to do is “accept Jesus” and he is absolutely assured of eternal life. That is found nowhere in scripture.
As Catholics we know that the best path to attain salvation is in the Catholic Church because we have all of the sacraments.

Third Day, first let me say thank you for all the posts and information. And I understand what you are saying, however I have tried that route with him and have found they have a way around it. They are saved by grace and that grace comes by accepting Jesus. So when you tell him nowhere in the bible does it say that you merely accept Jesus as your savior and are saved, he instead pulls out verses saying that you are saved by grace then another verse that says that grace comes from accepting Jesus. Do you see where it is hard to battle?

 

[shawn38]

The thief did more than just “believe”.
His repentance was a good work
His admittance of sin was a good work
His humility was a good work
The good thief was not to be saved by faith alone.

Sounds like hee admittance, repentance, and believed. Things people need to do to come to Christ. No works were required afterwards. I know he died shortly after. But he would not have gone to paradise if they were necessary. Sufficiency! Part of the faith baby!

Third Day, Good Job! You sound like a Baptist!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Sounds like hee admittance, repentance, and believed. Things people need to do to come to Christ. No works were required afterwards. I know he died shortly after. But he would not have gone to paradise if they were necessary. Sufficiency! Part of the faith baby!

Third Day, Good Job! You sound like a Baptist!

The point you’re overlooking, deliberately it seems for some reason, is there was a response to God’s love. A response is works. Many things have been described to you as works; prayer, reading scriptures, keeping God’s commandments, etc.

You can’t drive a wedge on every issue shawn. There are things Catholics and Protestanst will agree on.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

 

[Deconi]

Sounds like hee admittance, repentance, and believed. Things people need to do to come to Christ. No works were required afterwards. I know he died shortly after. But he would not have gone to paradise if they were necessary. Sufficiency! Part of the faith baby!

Third Day, Good Job! You sound like a Baptist!

You’re deliberately ignoring the fact he worked out his salvation by opening his mouth and confessed his sins to Christ, defended Christ and proclaimed Him …BEFORE he was promised salvation!

A bit like all the Baptist pastors who rave against ‘work’ and proclaiming Christ’s salvation to all…not realising that those very ‘actions’ are the ‘works’ that St Paul speaks of…about ‘working out’ your salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[mmmcounts]

The moral laws of the Old Covenant are still in effect. Paul even says so
Romans 2:13 “ For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified”

To remain in Christ there are necessary works such as keeping the commandments. These works are not of our own doing but are done through grace from God.

That looks like more of a “yes” than a “no.”

 

[Canto]

As the tree is known by its fruits, so they who claim to belong to Christ are known by their actions; for this work of ours does not consist in just making professions, but in a faith that is both practical and lasting.

Ignatius of Antioch, The Epistle to the Ephesians, 14-15.

Written in the first century. St Ignatius was a disciple of St John!

 

[rev_kevin]

Too bad there is justification neither in the Bible nor the Early Church for that position. Only in the teachings of men.

I pray that you come home to the only Church that Jesus ever established.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can’t take credit for that, it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done,so none of us cane boast about it.

How is what I said only in the teachings of men?
What is your take of Ephesians 2:8-9?

 

[jmcrae]

Because he did not live in sin and nor perform any works than simply believe, the thief on the cross was saved. He believed and that was credited to him.

This is because he committed no sin between the time he had his sins washed away by Christ on the Cross, and the time of his death.

If he had lived, he would have had to live the Christian lifestyle - he could not have gone back to his life of crime and sin.

 

[Canto]

Is this meant to imply that there are works not of the old Mosaic law by which you are now saved?

We’ll St James says that we are justified by works

The new law of Christ - are we to obey it?
If we don’t obey it - are we still saved?

Christ says to get into heaven we have to keep the commandmants
Sts Paul and James note that love of neighbour fulfils the law
St Paul says love/charity is greater than faith
St Peter says that by good works we may make sure our calling and election

So good works in Christ Jesus in response to God’s grace do play a role in our justification. As St Ignatius says it beings with faith and then should flow love - together and not seperate. St Paul speaks of faith rooted and founded in love. Faith should never be alone. Paul knew what the word alone could do for an argument but he never uses it with faith, most always with love.

Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin but have obeyed from the heart unto that form of doctrine into which you have been delivered.

 

[jmcrae]

Third Day, first let me say thank you for all the posts and information. And I understand what you are saying, however I have tried that route with him and have found they have a way around it. They are saved by grace and that grace comes by accepting Jesus. So when you tell him nowhere in the bible does it say that you merely accept Jesus as your savior and are saved, he instead pulls out verses saying that you are saved by grace then another verse that says that grace comes from accepting Jesus. Do you see where it is hard to battle?

Show him Matthew 25:31-46 and ask him to show you where it says that the “goats” had never heard of Jesus before.

On the contrary, they were doing miracles in His name, and considered themselves to be “saved” - but they weren’t allowed to go to Heaven, because they had never obeyed any of His commandments.

Obedience, therefore, is clearly a requirement.

 

[aspirant]

We become Christians through God’s unmerited favor, not as the result of any effort, ability, intelligent choice or act of service of our part.

Actually, dnu, the sentence you quoted is consistent with the Catholic Church’s teaching throughout the centuries; it agrees with the Council of Trent. This is a point beautifully illustrated, for example, in the Church’s baptism of infants. It is only because we are regenerated and incorporated into Christ that we are empowered by God’s grace to do meritorious good.

Some helpful articles:
on JustificationCatechism of the Catholic Church
“It Works for Me: The Church’s Teaching on Justification” by Catholics United for the Faith
“Does the Bible Teach Sola Fide?” by Bryan Cross (former Calvinist)
“A Reply from a Romery Person” by Bryan Cross
“Justification: The Catholic Church and the Judaizers in St. Paul’s Letter to the Galatians” by Bryan Cross
“A Lutheran’s Case for Roman Catholicism” by Robert C. Koons (then a Lutheran)
“Sola Gratia, Solo Christo: The Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification” by Richard A. White (then a Calvinist)

Among books, I’d probably recommend Jimmy Akin’s The Salvation Controversy, Louis Bouyer’s The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, and Francis Beckwith’s Return to Rome: Confessions of an Evangelical Catholic (interestingly, all converts or reverts to Catholicism).

 

[ufamtobie]

Protestants:

I am currently having a faith discussion with well-versed baptists boy… He is an excellent talker, but sometimes his explanations of what he believes loses me. Could you please explain where you stand and what scripture supports your view of Faith (or sometimes referred to as grace) alone? why do you think works effect salvation?

Catholics:

Likewise, I am having a hard time explaining the Catholic view on Faith alone versus Faith & Works. What scripture supports the Catholic view? and how do we interpret it?
Also, how do Catholics respond to Ephesians 2:8-10 that seems along with most of Romans that seems to promote the Protestant view of salvation?

All comments appreciated! ~ Cee

MissCee,

(Regarding Ephesians 2: 8-10)

Well, Satan has the faith that God Exists, but somewhere down the line in heaven Satan had no more good “Works” Faith Satan has regarding God exists but He Lost his good works and for loosing his good works he was cast out of heaven.

Yes, Satan has the faith, for he has seen God face to face, but he sure don’t have the good works. Faith and works one without the other is dead, and Satan proves it.

Faith and Good works is given to us by God, for we cannot do no good works on our own it is He who is in us that the good works are done. But through our will, we can loose these graces given to us.

James 2: 26) For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Ufamtobie

 

[planten]

MissCee,

(Regarding Ephesians 2: 8-10)

Well, Satan has the faith that God Exists, but somewhere down the line in heaven Satan had no more good “Works” Faith Satan has regarding God exists but He Lost his good works and for loosing his good works he was cast out of heaven.

Yes, Satan has the faith, for he has seen God face to face, but he sure don’t have the good works. Faith and works one without the other is dead, and Satan proves it.

Faith and Good works is given to us by God, for we cannot do no good works on our own it is He who is in us that the good works are done. But through our will, we can loose these graces given to us.

James 2: 26) For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Ufamtobie

I am Muslim. The above post from ufamtobie, is very good. We Muslims believe as follows:

Faith is necessary. That is the prmary and foremost. Such as to believe that there is a God who created. That we are to worship him. We are to believe in Jesus too and Muhammad. The Catholics may have to believe in Jesus only. Without such belief there is no faith.

Then there are commandments from God which have been passed care of Jesus ( and Muhammad). There are do’s and don’t’s. All believers are to abide by them. If they do not act according to the teachings then they have no faith. Faith cannot be proved without good works i.e. befitting deeds, as it is beautifully described in James 2:26,

James 2: 26) For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

There may be some difference in the Muslims beliefs and the catholics, I am not sure. We Muslims believe salvation lies in right firm faith and good works. But even then salvation depends on the Grace of God. That is another essential element for salvation.

Nobody need worry about that. If any one has done well with right faith and good deeds, God will not deprive him/her of His Grace. That is the promise of God and His promise never fails.

More on the subject: If some one does not believe and has no good faith in the creator, he may be doing good deeds, not for earning the pleasure of God but for his own worldly missions (earnings, gains), his / her good works has no value because he/she has no relation (attachment, spiritul linkage) with God. So works without faith has no value.

Faith without works has no proof of itself. If there is no good works then there is no proof of the faith. Faith has to be followed and proved and practiced openly on the ground. Then one can leave the matters in the hand of God and hope for His Grace to lead the person to paradise.

Another thing: The real life of heavens and hell will only be apparant in next world. But the life of heavens and hell starts here in this very world and then it continues into the next world. The good people see the good fruits of their good deeds here in this world too before their passing away.

The bad people will suffer and see the bad results of their bad deeds in this world too. ANd they will suffer all the more in next world. It is really the spiritual happiness and spiritual suffering that is meant here. Of course, the body also partakes from that happiness or suffering.

 

[Canto]

Catechism of the Catholic Church on Justification

“It Works for Me: The Church’s Teaching on Justification” by Catholics United for the Faith

“Sola Gratia, Solo Christo: The Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification” by Richard A. White (then a Calvinist)

Interesting, thanks

One of the links states…

We acquire more righteousness by doing good works within Gods grace and with the help of Gods grace (Phil. 2:12-13, 1 Cor. 3:9). This is how human works contribute to justification (Jas. 2:14-26). Good works are worthless for salvation without Gods grace, but within Gods grace they are precisely what God intends for us (Eph.2:10). They are a way of showing faithful gratitude to God,14 and they are made possible by God Himself (Jn. 15:5). If we do not express our faith through our loving works, our faith is dead (Jas. 2:26, 1 Cor. 13:2) and we have not persevered in grace.

Matthew, Romans and Revelation all note that God will render to us according to our works.

 

[MissCee]

y’all don’t know how much all of this is helping me. I really appreciate the links and they seem wonderful. I can’t imagine what he is going to say back to any of this when we meet this week. I wish that there was some way that I could make him see my point without the barriers of religions. I think half the arguement about salvation starts with predigests and people looks at what is truely written. Thank You! && if anyone can find more example within the bible and interpretation of those I would be forever thankful.

All comments are loved!
~Cee

 

[mercygate]

Is this meant to imply that there are works not of the old Mosaic law by which you are now saved?

One of my favorite alleged quotations from John Calvin is: It is true that we are saved by faith alone. But the faith by which we are saved is never alone.

I do know a couple of Protestants of rabid mein who claim that all you have to do is ask Jesus into your heart and you’re saved no matter what. I do not know any thoughtful, committed Protestants in real life who rest on their personal assurance of salvation as if it meant they need do nothing further to advance the coming of the Kingdom. Busy, busy, busy: doing all tlhe same things we poor, ignorant, supposedly works-righteousness obssessed Catholics do. Exactly the same things.

Christianity is not a proposition. It is a life LIVED in active love. (Gal 5:6)

 

[Bill_Pick]

Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee by training, so when he talked and wrote about the “law” (which we interpret as “works”), he meant the rigourous Mosaic law, along with all the embellishments added to it by generations of scribes and in later Jewish history, the Pharisees. In other words, they were trying to gain admission to heaven by obeying a multitude of laws, some major, some exceedingly petty.

When Paul wrote Romans, he was still by training and culture a Jew, coming from a Jewish background, writing to what was probably a mixture of Jews and gentiles in the newly formed church. So he had to address both parties.

It’s also worth noting here that the word “alone” in “faith alone” was actually added by Luther, and was not part of the original text.

The basic premise of the Church is that faith is the starting point, but from that faith God expects to see some works. Works of mercy, charity, forgiveness and so on. How we treat our neighbour.

Hence we have James for example pointing out that faith without works is dead.

Christ also pointed out that there were those whom He would condemn, since they failed to visit Him in prison, help Him when He was sick, or an orphan, or disabled, or whatever, since He would be present in the least of His brothers. That’s works. What He was saying was that there would be some who would think all they had to do was believe, and nothing more. Or their “works” would be of the wrong sort. In this respect the Inquisition comes to mind (for me, anyway).

And they’d be condemned for it.

Faith is merely the starting point. It may also be the finishing point, but God expects us to be doing something in between.

A+