Faith alone or Faith plus works?

[MissCee]

Thank you to everyone who continues to comment and discuss various points of this debate.

Time ToGrow && Guanophore,

Both of your posts are very powerful and helpful. I feel completely useless when debating faith with him because the ideas, interpretations, and verses, that he has contradict everything I was raised knowing. His concepts under cut the very ideas I hold fast to. I know that I should’ve better phrased my original question or even the title, but I am somewhat desperate. The more I continue to discuss with him, the more sense his logic makes. I try taking points from this forum and verses, but somehow he manages to restate things in a way that seem to work together better yet follow his beliefs. There is such an abundance of bible verses that he can pull out that state faith is what saves. He can show places where Jesus and the apostles tell people they are saved by grace and by faith… If works were such an important part why aren’t they mentioned more often as a requirement? why do the apostle say that we must be saved by grace not by the mosaic laws, even though those mosaic laws seem to be the very laws (or works) Catholics cling to?
I tried Mt 25:31-46… I was sure a verse like that could show how works affect salvation, but clever enough he pointed out the distinction that was already made between goats and sheep (nonbelievers and believers). The good works did not effect their salvation but rather the amount of glory they would receive in heaven.

I can’t explain it as easily as he can because unlike most baptists he is well researched (he has read the bible through multiple times [once in 90 days], studied the greek and hebrew translations, he has studied the beliefs of other denominations, etc). I know he can prove his beliefs with so many verses, I just wished there was a way (a good argument, an amazing bible verse, some thing) that would justify my beliefs.

Thanksfor the support. Cee!

 

[Canto]

There is such an abundance of bible verses that he can pull out that state faith is what saves. He can show places where Jesus and the apostles tell people they are saved by grace and by faith… If works were such an important part why aren’t they mentioned more often as a requirement? why do the apostle say that we must be saved by grace not by the mosaic laws, even though those mosaic laws seem to be the very laws (or works) Catholics cling to?

St James says we are justifed by works and not by faith alone. That verse alone should be a check mate, but some have a way of twisting the verse.

If it is faith alone that saves, why does St James say not by faith alone

James 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

The scriptures talk about faith saving us, but never faith alone.
The following link shows 50 verses from Paul that deal with chairty (love). Paul throughout his writings links the two together. He new what the word alone could do for an argument but never uses that word with faith. Faith rooted and found in love he says, not alone, the Christian armour.

drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?t=2&q=faith+charity&b=drb

How do you get into heaven?
The Bible says…
Matthew 19:17 Keep the commandmants
Romans 13:10 esp. Love of neighbour
Romans 2:13 doing the new Law not just hearing
Mark 16:16 Believe AND be Baptised
John 6:55 Eat His flesh and drink his blood
James 2:24 Faith with works

Nowhere does the Bible say faith alone
Good works make sure our calling and election 2 Peter 1:10

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him; being abominable, and incredulous, and to every good work reprobate.

Matthew 16:27 and then will he render to every man according to his works.
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Revelation 22:12 to render to every man according to his works.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

If we don’t walk in these works God has created, can we expect to get into heaven?

Matthew Chapter 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

1 Timothy Chapter 6
16 Who only hath immortality, and inhabiteth light inaccessible, whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and empire everlasting. Amen. 17 Charge the rich of this world not to be highminded, nor to trust in the uncertainty of riches, but in the living God, (who giveth us abundantly all things to enjoy,) 18 To do good, to be rich in good works, to give easily, to communicate to others, 19 To lay up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the true life. 20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called.

Romans 13:10 The love of our neighbour worketh no evil. Love therefore is the fulfilling of the law.Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The works Catholics speak of are not works of the Mosaic law, they are good works in Christ Jesus in response to his grace and love. We MUST uphold the new Law of Christ Jesus, above all love of neighbour

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:7 In all things shew thyself an example of good works, in doctrine, in integrity, in gravity,

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable, a pursuer of good works.

10 Titus 3:8 It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:14 And let our men also learn to excel in good works for necessary uses: that they be not unfruitful.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

Grace and sin are opposed

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, having on the breastplate of faith and charity, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

St Paul **faith - charity = nothing **(James 2:20)
St James faith - charity = dead (1 Corinthians 13:2 )

 

[aspirant]

There is such an abundance of bible verses that he can pull out that state faith is what saves.

We Catholics believe faith saves! The key is that it has to be living faith, faith working through love for God, which is empowered by the gift of God’s grace. It is faith without love that is dead and cannot save (cf. 1Cor 13, Jas 2, etc.). The Bible never teaches that we can be saved by faith without love.

If works were such an important part why aren’t they mentioned more often as a requirement?

Doing good and avoiding evil is required, all over the New Testament!

why do the apostle say that we must be saved by grace not by the mosaic laws, even though those mosaic laws seem to be the very laws (or works) Catholics cling to?

The apostles, and especially Paul, are right to say we are not saved by doing works of Torah. It is not keeping Torah (e.g. being circumcised, eating kosher and not treyf, sacrificing this animal or that grain, etc.) that saves us. Torah does not save: Torah was a pedagogue, leading God’s people to Jesus Christ who fulfills Torah. We are saved by God’s grace through living faith, faith working through love for God.

Catholics do not cling to Torah, which has been fulfilled, but cling in faithful love to Jesus Christ, who fulfills Torah.

Perhaps you are confused because so many laws of the Torah are moral laws which command people to do good and avoid evil (e.g. “you shall not murder, you shall not steal”). And we Catholic do believe that we must do good and avoid evil. We do this not because we are subject to Torah, but because we are commanded by Jesus Christ to love God and our neighbor. If we have living faith, faith working through love, we will do good (love God & neighbor) and avoid evil (e.g. murder, theft) by the power of God’s grace, and he will reward (as Jesus says) the obedience of faith (to use Paul’s term). Living faith is faithful in action.

I tried Mt 25:31-46… I was sure a verse like that could show how works affect salvation, but clever enough he pointed out the distinction that was already made between goats and sheep (nonbelievers and believers). The good works did not effect their salvation but rather the amount of glory they would receive in heaven.

He is inserting ideas into the text that are not there. What distinguishes the sheep from the goats, according to the text, is whether they have been faithful to Jesus Christ: not merely believing in him, but loving him and expressing that faithful love in action. The sheep are welcomed into heaven and rewarded, the goats are not.

(he has read the bible through multiple times [once in 90 days], studied the greek and hebrew translations, he has studied the beliefs of other denominations, etc).

That’s great, but not sufficient to understand.

 

[TimeToGrow]

Thank you to everyone who continues to comment and discuss various points of this debate.

I can’t explain it as easily as he can because unlike most baptists he is well researched (he has read the bible through multiple times [once in 90 days], studied the greek and hebrew translations, he has studied the beliefs of other denominations, etc). I know he can prove his beliefs with so many verses, I just wished there was a way (a good argument, an amazing bible verse, some thing) that would justify my beliefs.

Thanksfor the support. Cee!

Hello Misscee,

Truly these things present certain challenges for us. What we are experiencing is a prophetic fulfillment. Often times we tend to think of a prophetic imagery as something that has to do with a prophet. Although it is true, we sometimes overlook things deeply root in the catholic tradition not often considered and truly it’s not our primary focus as it shouldn’t be. The bible teaches and demonstrates that there are exceptions to the protocol. We know that too.

I might be able to say some things that create perspective and context.

First the reality of the settings of Christ time…
Jews had scripture. All through the scripture certain Jews are challenging Christ with scripture. This long awaited messiah has finally come and they were the only ones on planet earth to have any written knowledge of his coming. Truly, why couldn’t they see who he was? Latter we learn because of Blindness for OUR benefit… Why couldn’t they act when you know they truly suspected that he truly was what they had long waited for? Scripture didn’t help it just made things confusing for them.

   Their intellectual pride in the scripture couldn’t help them at that time. The truth of scripture justifies God not us.. It has nothing to do with the spirit in us except that all are in it somehow playing some roll to fulfill what God has pre-ordained.  Their Eternal life wasn’t in the scripture but it pointed to it. In Christ was eternal life not the scripture and that is what the boy is doing.. Christ came to do the will of his Father not the will of Israel. Israel wanted Christ to fulfill their anticipated belief that they had gotten from a distorted view of scripture. They were blind! Like the Jews of Christ time they believe something from what they read and think they understand.  
 
   Many rely on their educated prowess in and of scripture and they can’t see or refuse to see at times often for reason. Often persons such as you aren’t aware.  You see it’s what gets discussed in the backrooms in their synagogues or churches…   Why because they are trying to save their self and maybe you. They have scripture and truthfully they hijacked it from the Church.  Truth is they wouldn’t have any Scripture if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church.  What does the scripture say? Christ said, “””Take heed that you be not deceived. For many will come in MY Name (they come in the name of Christ) and deceive the Many.””” They deceive with a doctrine that empowers themselves not the Church.. 


Their using Christ Name to fulfill their will not the Fathers. And it is by their efforts not his.  It’s why Paul warns in II Thess, Hold fast to the traditions as taught by us. The scripture isn’t going to be much help for some because it has become their stumbling block. One might ask how? Because the truth of it empowers even the evil.  For the deceived?  The truth not only can set you free, it can make you something you haven’t realized.  That is why the Church is so important. We are to those blind and deceived what Christ was to the Jews of his time. It was never acceptable to leave the Church because that was like saying I’m not going to work for you anymore Lord.. Having Scripture can’t justify that no matter how we spin it to justify why I don’t have to be like you.   Because the Old Testament covenant is the pre-figuring of the new covenant… 

 One might ask did Israel quit being the Covenant of the lord when they sinned? No! Or were found corrupt.. No!.. He chose them, and his covenant had conditions and he doesn’t abandon the faithful in his covenant. Did the Lord Abandon Israel because David had a man murdered so he could marry his wife? The King of Israel,  No the Lord didn’t.  No amount of other people corruption in the covenant of God gives any of us  the right to abandon what we  say we believe.  They leave or reject for what they can’t understand. Their non believers…  Most the times people are indoctrinated when it comes to teachings and there isn’t any set rule when it comes to tradition for some. It’s all in the head doctrine. No visible expression of one’s love in the ritual of worship..

There is so much more but I haven’t time to write.
Peace and Godbless Misscee

 

[PJM]

=MissCee;Protestants:

Could you please explain where you stand and what scripture supports your view of Faith (or sometimes referred to as grace) alone? why do you think works effect salvation?

Catholics:

Justification and Salvation

Rom.5: 1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Gal. 2: 16 yet we know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified…… I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

**Rom. 5: 9 **Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood

CATHOLIC EVIDENCE for salvation through Faith with works.

Gen. 22: 10 Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.

Gal, 3: 27 for, as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Baptism is a requirement unto salvation. It is manifested as a work of Faith, Hope and Love. **John 3: 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
**
Rom 1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. (We are being told that faith by itself does not guarantee our salvation)

Rom. 2: 12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. (Speaking here of the Commandments.)

Rom. 6: 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. **Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions…. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. **

James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? *** So, Faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” ***

Heb. 6: 9 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work, and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do

**1st. Cor. 6: 9-10 9 **Do you not know that the unrighteous [thats works] will not inherit the kingdom of God?

John 14: 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”[works!]

We know of course that the “original law,” the Law of the Covenant, with Moses, The Ten Commandments, were what Yahweh -God, issued and expected everyone to follow. By the time of our Blessed Lord’s ministry on earth, they had been expanded as “THE (Torah) LAW” to over three hundred ADDITIONAL obligations, most of which had little or nothing to do with God’s original intent. Yet they were taught “as the law (of the Covenant).”

What is being said in all of these (Justification Only) passages is that one’s obedience to “the priest expanded law” was not essential to ones salvation in the eyes of God. Jesus without condemning these “RULES,” rather only saying, their fulfillment, did little or nothing to assist in ones salvation clearly stated that “the law,” was separate from the Covenant of Salvation. Obeying the Commandments YES, obeying “the law,” yes too, but not effecting the Covenant, Good, but not essential.

Clearly and indisputably, God expects more from us than ONLY to believe in Him. Of course we must have Great Faith! We must also be baptized, we must obey His Commandments. We must through our works put Faith, Hope and Love into action. The degree that we are successful in these endeavors will determine our Salvation. Thus salvation is an ongoing process.

One who assumes that all that is required by Almighty God for our salvation is Faith without works would be of the mind that our life’s conduct is of no consequence, and our personal decisions can rule. Wrong, wrong, wrong! If this were true, there would be no need for the Commandments, or the Beatitudes, which are road -maps on how we are to live and love. They are not simply suggestions they are the directions we need to live a happy, fruitful and spiritually rewarding life in accordance to God’s plan for our salvation.

 

[SteveVH]

Thank you to everyone who continues to comment and discuss various points of this debate.

Time ToGrow && Guanophore,

Both of your posts are very powerful and helpful. I feel completely useless when debating faith with him because the ideas, interpretations, and verses, that he has contradict everything I was raised knowing. His concepts under cut the very ideas I hold fast to. I know that I should’ve better phrased my original question or even the title, but I am somewhat desperate. The more I continue to discuss with him, the more sense his logic makes. I try taking points from this forum and verses, but somehow he manages to restate things in a way that seem to work together better yet follow his beliefs. There is such an abundance of bible verses that he can pull out that state faith is what saves. He can show places where Jesus and the apostles tell people they are saved by grace and by faith… If works were such an important part why aren’t they mentioned more often as a requirement? why do the apostle say that we must be saved by grace not by the mosaic laws, even though those mosaic laws seem to be the very laws (or works) Catholics cling to?
I tried Mt 25:31-46… I was sure a verse like that could show how works affect salvation, but clever enough he pointed out the distinction that was already made between goats and sheep (nonbelievers and believers). The good works did not effect their salvation but rather the amount of glory they would receive in heaven.

I can’t explain it as easily as he can because unlike most baptists he is well researched (he has read the bible through multiple times [once in 90 days], studied the greek and hebrew translations, he has studied the beliefs of other denominations, etc). I know he can prove his beliefs with so many verses, I just wished there was a way (a good argument, an amazing bible verse, some thing) that would justify my beliefs.

Thanksfor the support. Cee!

The problem here, in my opinion, is that faith and works cannot be separated. When you try to do that you end up with problems. Does faith ALONE work? James says no. Do works ALONE work? If that was the case we wouldn’t have needed a Savior.

To me its like saying that sailing from America to Europe requires a boat (faith). Without a boat (faith) you cannot get there. You can swim and swim but you will never reach the other shore. However, it also requires sailing (works) that boat across the ocean. Having a boat serves no purpose if it is tied up in the harbor. Either one alone accomplishes nothing. Hope this makes sense to someone other than myself.

 

[TimeToGrow]

Hey Misscee,

There are things you can do.

First find out if he is a Christian zionist, He could be. If your not familar with that term? It basically mean that he believes and teaches that Jews are Gods chosen people.

I was once attending a bible prophecy studing with my father inlaw and it was all about how the Jews are God chosen people. After three days of this stuff he asked me what I thought. He was as most lay people enthusiastic about what was preached. Baptist at times are heavily indoctrinated by this kind of doctrine.

My response to him was ““Why would I become a Christian when I could drive down the road and become a Jew to be Gods chosen people””. This is important when trying to understand bible prophecy.

Peace and Godbless

 

[MissCee]

Thank y’all so much. The posts just keep getting more helpful. I am going to go talk to my priest on Monday. Hopefully between him and the verses you have pointed out I can clear things up.

• Cee

 

[Elizabeth_C]

Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee by training, so when he talked and wrote about the “law” (which we interpret as “works”), he meant the rigourous Mosaic law, along with all the embellishments added to it by generations of scribes and in later Jewish history, the Pharisees. In other words, they were trying to gain admission to heaven by obeying a multitude of laws, some major, some exceedingly petty.

When Paul wrote Romans, he was still by training and culture a Jew, coming from a Jewish background, writing to what was probably a mixture of Jews and gentiles in the newly formed church. So he had to address both parties.

It’s also worth noting here that the word “alone” in “faith alone” was actually added by Luther, and was not part of the original text.

The basic premise of the Church is that faith is the starting point, but from that faith God expects to see some works. Works of mercy, charity, forgiveness and so on. How we treat our neighbour.

Hence we have James for example pointing out that faith without works is dead.

Christ also pointed out that there were those whom He would condemn, since they failed to visit Him in prison, help Him when He was sick, or an orphan, or disabled, or whatever, since He would be present in the least of His brothers. That’s works. What He was saying was that there would be some who would think all they had to do was believe, and nothing more. Or their “works” would be of the wrong sort. In this respect the Inquisition comes to mind (for me, anyway).

And they’d be condemned for it.

Faith is merely the starting point. It may also be the finishing point, but God expects us to be doing something in between.

Bob… this is one of the best explanations I have seen.

 

[boeck249]

Thank you to everyone who continues to comment and discuss various points of this debate.

Time ToGrow && Guanophore,

Both of your posts are very powerful and helpful. I feel completely useless when debating faith with him because the ideas, interpretations, and verses, that he has contradict everything I was raised knowing. His concepts under cut the very ideas I hold fast to. I know that I should’ve better phrased my original question or even the title, but I am somewhat desperate. The more I continue to discuss with him, the more sense his logic makes. I try taking points from this forum and verses, but somehow he manages to restate things in a way that seem to work together better yet follow his beliefs. There is such an abundance of bible verses that he can pull out that state faith is what saves. He can show places where Jesus and the apostles tell people they are saved by grace and by faith… If works were such an important part why aren’t they mentioned more often as a requirement? why do the apostle say that we must be saved by grace not by the mosaic laws, even though those mosaic laws seem to be the very laws (or works) Catholics cling to?
I tried Mt 25:31-46… I was sure a verse like that could show how works affect salvation, but clever enough he pointed out the distinction that was already made between goats and sheep (nonbelievers and believers). The good works did not effect their salvation but rather the amount of glory they would receive in heaven.

I can’t explain it as easily as he can because unlike most baptists he is well researched (he has read the bible through multiple times [once in 90 days], studied the greek and hebrew translations, he has studied the beliefs of other denominations, etc). I know he can prove his beliefs with so many verses, I just wished there was a way (a good argument, an amazing bible verse, some thing) that would justify my beliefs.

Thanksfor the support. Cee!

Do not debate what the Bible says with a baptist they are experts on quoting the Bible. They come from a Bible Church. We are Catholic THE PRE BIBLE CHURCH. WE predate the Bible and our focus is what does That passage mean. There are many interpretations of the Bible. Which one is correct? Our Church wrote the bible passage by passage. Why do others insist on quoting it verse by verse. Start with Matthew 16 :18 and declare this is my church. The one true church.

 

[SteveVH]

Do not debate what the Bible says with a baptist they are experts on quoting the Bible. They come from a Bible Church. We are Catholic THE PRE BIBLE CHURCH. WE predate the Bible and our focus is what does That passage mean. There are many interpretations of the Bible. Which one is correct? Our Church wrote the bible passage by passage. Why do others insist on quoting it verse by verse. Start with Matthew 16 :18 and declare this is my church. The one true church.

It may be true that they are experts on quoting the Bible, however I have always found that if you place those quotes within the proper context their arguments quickly fade. It is amazing to me at how much effort is given to memorizing certain key verses which are intended to support preconceived notions such as “Faith Alone” and how surprised they are to find verses (which they have not memorized) that contradict that theology. There are some great posts on this thread that do just that and I think we have a duty to point those out.

 

[aspirant]

It may be true that they are experts on quoting the Bible, however I have always found that if you place those quotes within the proper context their arguments quickly fade.

Seriously. The first epistle of John alone blows sola fide out of the water. It is impossible to read 1John with real attention and come away thinking that love is not necessary for salvation.

 

[mercygate]

If anybody saw the terrific interview on The Journey Home last night (Feb 8, 2010), the Presbyterian who was featured gave a brilliant presentation on these issues, as well as on the business of "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior in a single, emotionally subjective, moment of salvation. He notes that none of this was ever part of the “faith alone” world until the Great Awakening in the 18th Century with people like Jonathan Edwards. As I quoted earlier, even Calvin said that although we are saved by faith alone, the faith that saves is never alone. IOW: faith WORKS.

 

[SteveVH]

Seriously. The first epistle of John alone blows sola fide out of the water. It is impossible to read 1John with real attention and come away thinking that love is not necessary for salvation.

Great example:thumbsup:

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Bob’s explanation is identical to Jimmy Akin’s explanation in his book “The Salvation Controversy.” I highly recommend reading it if you liked Bob’s angle and would like to explore it deeper…

Bob… this is one of the best explanations I have seen.

 

[Springkeeper]

I can’t explain it as easily as he can because unlike most baptists he is well researched (he has read the bible through multiple times [once in 90 days], studied the greek and hebrew translations, he has studied the beliefs of other denominations, etc). I know he can prove his beliefs with so many verses, I just wished there was a way (a good argument, an amazing bible verse, some thing) that would justify my beliefs.

Thanksfor the support. Cee!

Dear MissCee,
As a current Fundamentalist Baptist church attendee, I can tell you that belief in faith alone is the linchpin of Baptist belief. A church member’s 18 year old daughter recently died of a drug overdose while she was living with the man who got her pregnant. Her Father stood at the podium and blissfully announced that he was sure she was going to heaven because she made a profession of faith at the age of 12. Loud amens were heard throughout the church. The fundamental Baptist belief is that all sin is forgiven upon a sincere confession of faith and that no matter what happens later (murder, adultery, etc etc.) and with no repentance; you will still go to heaven because all of your past present and future sins were already forgiven.
I have also read the Bible several times but it was while looking through a “Baptist” lens. I read something to the effect that Baptists interpret the Bible through the lens of Paul; Catholics interpret Paul through the lens of the Old Testament, the Gospels, and history. It was only after I read the scriptures with an open mind and an eye on history and the Old Testament did I really begin to see and understand. I now firmly believe that faith and works are inextricably linked- there is no either or.

 

[Springkeeper]

I forgot, a couple of helpful links:

thisgospel.com/writings/Other-NTConditionalSecurityScriptures.htm

noeternalsecurity.com/index.html

[(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/Page8_a_question_of_salvation.html#ETERNALSECURITY](http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/Page8_a_question_of_salvation.html#ETERNALSECURITY)

anabaptists.org/writings/security.html

biblicalresearchreports.com/salvation.php