Faith Alone Salvation .... any examples of in Scripture ?

[brb3]

Perhaps the Thief on Cross ? A type of ‘deathbed confession’ ! His story of salvation,… [publically praying a ‘sinner’s prayer’] … has perhaps brought more people to repentance / confession, than all others.

Is his salvation unique in all scripture ? If he had lived longer, would he of needed to do more, to obtain final salvation ?

 

[GreatergoodGod]

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

But taking saint Paul’s writings in its fullness saint Paul very much emphasised good works and faith. Faith alone was a Martin Luther concept.

Yes the theif on the cross was saved by his faith.

 

[Steveabrous]

Actually, and know I’m going to get creamed if I don’t say it right (but here goes), Catholics and protestants are more in agreement then not on the subject of Faith alone vs. faith plus works. We just say it differently which causes confusion.

When Protestants say “Faith alone” they mean the faith that produces good works.
When Protestants say “Faith plus works” they mean believe in God yes, but you have to work your way to heaven.

When we Catholics say “Faith alone” we mean simply believing in God nothing else.
When we Catholics say :Faith plus works" we mean Faith first, which calls us to act on that faith. But you can not work your way to heaven.

You see? there really is not much difference in the belief. just a difference in how it is presented.

There is an article on Catholic answers which discusses this

 

[shaky]

Actually, and know I’m going to get creamed if I don’t say it right (but here goes), Catholics and protestants are more in agreement then not on the subject of Faith alone vs. faith plus works. We just say it differently which causes confusion.

When Protestants say “Faith alone” they mean the faith that produces good works.
When Protestants say “Faith plus works” they mean believe in God yes, but you have to work your way to heaven.

When we Catholics say “Faith alone” we mean simply believing in God nothing else.
When we Catholics say :Faith plus works" we mean Faith first, which calls us to act on that faith. But you can not work your way to heaven.

You see? there really is not much difference in the belief. just a difference in how it is presented.

There is an article on Catholic answers which discusses this

Unbelief is a sin and breaking the law of God. Jesus shows us ‘‘faith is a Law’’ Matt 23:23
Jesus also show us ‘‘faith is a work’’ John 6:28-29

How can Paul in Romans say we are Justified by Faith that is apart the the works of the Law when Jesus show us ‘‘faith is work of the Law’’ ?
How can James say we are Justified by works and not by faith only when Jesus show us ‘‘Faith is a work of the Law’’ ?

 

[Steveabrous]

Unbelief is a sin and breaking the law of God. Jesus shows us ‘‘faith is a Law’’ Matt 23:23
Jesus also show us ‘‘faith is a work’’ John 6:28-29

How can Paul in Romans say we are Justified by Faith that is apart the the works of the Law when Jesus show us ‘‘faith is work of the Law’’ ?
How can James say we are Justified by works and not by faith only when Jesus show us ‘‘Faith is a work of the Law’’ ?

I don’t see how this is a comment on what I said?
I didn’t say we are in complete agreement. Just that Protestants do not believe faith alone means you don’t have to do anything. They believe Faith alone means Faith that produces works.

You also say How can Paul say this, and how can James say that when THEY DID SAY IT. You tell me.

I believe your comments need some clearifying. I’m not quit sure what your point is.

Also I would point out that we Catholics believe faith comes first(read the Catechism).

And Paul says we are freed from the Law.

 

[CatholicRaven]

Unbelief is a sin and breaking the law of God. Jesus shows us ‘‘faith is a Law’’ Matt 23:23
Jesus also show us ‘‘faith is a work’’ John 6:28-29

How can Paul in Romans say we are Justified by Faith that is apart the the works of the Law when Jesus show us ‘‘faith is work of the Law’’ ?
How can James say we are Justified by works and not by faith only when Jesus show us ‘‘Faith is a work of the Law’’ ?

Our human language is limited. A word usually has more than one meaning, so we must be careful not to read the same meaning into a different context where it doesn’t apply.

I don’t see where Jesus referred to faith as a work of the law, but He said that faithfulness was a matter of the law–in other words, the Pharisees were following the “letter of the law,” but ignoring the reason for it, the spirit of the law: to know, love and serve God.

If you read further in John 6, you may see that Jesus was referring to belief in Him both as God’s Son, and as the Bread of Life (the Eucharist). If we believe in Him, and we believe what he says–that we must eat His Flesh–then what must happen? Jesus was not just speaking about the intellectual belief that He exists (He’s standing right in front of them, after all), but faith about who He is and what that means for them and us (eating His Flesh).

In other words, there is faith that refers to an intellectual belief only, and then there is another meaning of faith, which is formed in charity and includes hope, love, and trust in God.

Perhaps this article will help: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm

P.S. Paul was referring to the Jewish Law, saying that Gentiles do not need to follow the Jewish Law in order to follow Christ.

 

[tabycat]

Actually, and know I’m going to get creamed if I don’t say it right (but here goes), Catholics and protestants are more in agreement then not on the subject of Faith alone vs. faith plus works. We just say it differently which causes confusion.

When Protestants say “Faith alone” they mean the faith that produces good works.
When Protestants say “Faith plus works” they mean believe in God yes, but you have to work your way to heaven.

When we Catholics say “Faith alone” we mean simply believing in God nothing else.
When we Catholics say :Faith plus works" we mean Faith first, which calls us to act on that faith. But you can not work your way to heaven.

You see? there really is not much difference in the belief. just a difference in how it is presented.

There is an article on Catholic answers which discusses this

 

[mark_a]

Perhaps the Thief on Cross ? A type of ‘deathbed confession’ ! His story of salvation,… [publically praying a ‘sinner’s prayer’] … has perhaps brought more people to repentance / confession, than all others.

Is his salvation unique in all scripture ? If he had lived longer, would he of needed to do more, to obtain final salvation ?

This thief admonished a sinner (the other thief), which is a work. So I don’t think that’s a good example.

 

[pablope]

Perhaps the Thief on Cross ? A type of ‘deathbed confession’ ! His story of salvation,… [publically praying a ‘sinner’s prayer’] … has perhaps brought more people to repentance / confession, than all others.

Is his salvation unique in all scripture ? If he had lived longer, would he of needed to do more, to obtain final salvation ?

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power.”[g]

The good thief…accepted his fate, his punishment…accepted his suffering and offered them as reparation for his offenses…then asked for forgiveness…by asking to be remembered.

Then and only then were the words uttered…43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

 

[shaky]

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power.”[g]

The good thief…accepted his fate, his punishment…accepted his suffering and offered them as reparation for his offenses…then asked for forgiveness…by asking to be remembered.

Then and only then were the words uttered…43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Why does it show BOTH thieves reviled Jesus on the Cross in [Matth 27:44, Mark 15:32]
But It shows only ONE thief reviled Jesus on the Cross in [Luke 23:39-42] ?

 

[shaky]

Our human language is limited. A word usually has more than one meaning, so we must be careful not to read the same meaning into a different context where it doesn’t apply.

I don’t see where Jesus referred to faith as a work of the law, but He said that faithfulness was a matter of the law–in other words, the Pharisees were following the “letter of the law,” but ignoring the reason for it, the spirit of the law: to know, love and serve God.

If you read further in John 6, you may see that Jesus was referring to belief in Him both as God’s Son, and as the Bread of Life (the Eucharist). If we believe in Him, and we believe what he says–that we must eat His Flesh–then what must happen? Jesus was not just speaking about the intellectual belief that He exists (He’s standing right in front of them, after all), but faith about who He is and what that means for them and us (eating His Flesh).

In other words, there is faith that refers to an intellectual belief only, and then there is another meaning of faith, which is formed in charity and includes hope, love, and trust in God.

Perhaps this article will help: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm

P.S. Paul was referring to the Jewish Law, saying that Gentiles do not need to follow the Jewish Law in order to follow Christ.

Faith=faithfulness. Obediance to the teachings of Christ. Paul did say he was under the law of Christ.

Thanks

 

[brb3]

Except, Faith is not Work.
So said James, when he says in his Epistle “Faith w/o works is dead”.

And, we have example of the young man who came to Christ desiring salvation. He believed in Christ, he had faith. But, Jesus asked him to forsake all in life, and to follow him in discipleship, a life of good works [Beatitudes]. And, the young man went away sorrowful… for his faith and keeping of OT Law was not considered sufficient by Jesus.

On the otherhand, good works [Beatitude law keeping] … is considered tantamount to having faith. So says James, in his Epistle.
,
So, what is essential … Faith or Good Works ? Both.
Which is the more powerful testimonial of the heart ? Good Works, … as the proof is in the pudding. Its not what we say, but what we do. Actions speak louder than words. No one can keep the Beatitudes, w/o the indwelling of H.S. of Christ.

Am I wrong ?

 

[CatholicRaven]

Why does it show BOTH thieves reviled Jesus on the Cross in [Matth 27:44, Mark 15:32]
But It shows only ONE thief reviled Jesus on the Cross in [Luke 23:39-42] ?

Possibly they both did at first, but then the second one changed his tune later? Just my guess; I’m no bible scholar.

 

[pablope]

Why does it show BOTH thieves reviled Jesus on the Cross in [Matth 27:44, Mark 15:32]
But It shows only ONE thief reviled Jesus on the Cross in [Luke 23:39-42] ?

Mark says the two rebels…but does not account for what transpired, v32 was uttered by the chief priests and teachers:

27 They crucified two rebels with him, one on his right and one on his left. [28] [a] 29 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30 come down from the cross and save yourself!” 31 In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! 32 Let this Messiah, this king of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.” Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

As for Matthew:

38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

Could be the other one initially heaped the same insults…and eventually saw that Jesus did not hurl insults back…and heard the words that Jesus said…that made him change.

Keep in mind, there were on the cross for at least 3 hours.

 

[shaky]

Except, Faith is not Work.
So said James, when he says in his Epistle “Faith w/o works is dead”.

And, we have example of the young man who came to Christ desiring salvation. He believed in Christ, he had faith. But, Jesus asked him to forsake all in life, and to follow him in discipleship, a life of good works [Beatitudes]. And, the young man went away sorrowful… for his faith and keeping of OT Law was not considered sufficient by Jesus.

On the otherhand, good works [Beatitude law keeping] … is considered tantamount to having faith. So says James, in his Epistle.
,
So, what is essential … Faith or Good Works ? Both.
Which is the more powerful testimonial of the heart ? Good Works, … as the proof is in the pudding. Its not what we say, but what we do. Actions speak louder than words. No one can keep the Beatitudes, w/o the indwelling of H.S. of Christ.

Am I wrong ?

The Jewish rich young man did not have faith. Nor did he believe in Jesus at the time because if he did he would have done what Jesus said.

[Israel’s unbelief]

Israel which followed after the Law of Righteouness did not attain righteousness. Why. Because ‘‘they did not sought it by Faith’’. But as if it was works. They stumbled at the stumbling stone.
The Gentiles that did not follow after righteouness. have attained to rigteosness, even the righteouness which is of Faith. Rom 9:30-33

Anything that does not come from faith is Sin. Rom 14:23.

Jesus said faith is a work. John 6:28-29. 1 and 2 Thess show we do a work of faith. I think James was showing faith without a work is no faith. Yet in Romans Paul was showing that faith is ‘‘First’’ before work. That is why the ungodly are saved by Faith apart from work.

Yet they should not remain ungodly Titus 1:4.

With it being faith with Good works is it only the [beatitude law keeping] that Jesus preached on the sermon on the mount. Or is it MORE works then that ?

When does one know he is doing enough Good Works of Faith ?

At what Point does one recieve the Holy Spirit ?

 

[Steveabrous]

I think James was showing faith without a work is no faith. Yet in Romans Paul was showing that faith is ‘‘First’’ before work. That is why the ungodly are saved by Faith apart from work.

In Romans Paul was expressing faith not works OF THE LAW (for some reason when people quote Paul in Romans they always leave out the part that says OF THE LAW) is what saves us. He was telling Jews in Rome that the law of Moses will not save you. Only faith in Jesus.

James was clearifying what true faith is. It is not simply believing in Jesus. But acting on that belief through love of God and Neighbor.

 

[brb3]

A.) The Jewish rich young man did not have faith. Nor did he believe in Jesus at the time because if he did he would have done what Jesus said.

B.) When does one know he is doing enough Good Works of Faith ?

C.) At what Point does one recieve the Holy Spirit ?

A-- No, he believed in Jesus. He had faith in him … but, also loved his secular life. The cost of discipleship was too great for him.

B – When he/she is practicing the Law of Love / Beatitudes, and in union with Christ’s Church and receiving Sacraments. Also, when he/she is using the talents wisely given them by Christ.

C – When they are Confirmed in HS by Christ. When God’s anointed lay hands on them and they desire to be filled with H.S. They must be fully confessed, water Baptised, and ready for discipleship. Then the Baptism of Fire can be received …
[so said St. Thomas Aquinas] … and when was he ever wrong ??

 

[shaky]

In Romans Paul was expressing faith not works OF THE LAW (for some reason when people quote Paul in Romans they always leave out the part that says OF THE LAW) is what saves us. He was telling Jews in Rome that the law of Moses will not save you. Only faith in Jesus.

James was clearifying what true faith is. It is not simply believing in Jesus. But acting on that belief through love of God and Neighbor.

I could have written ‘‘of the Law’’. I would have thought is was obvious that when i only wrote WORK. Work means works of the Law.

‘‘He was telling Jews in Rome that the ‘‘law of Moses will not save you’’. ONLY Faith in Jesus’’

Was Paul only writing to Jews. What about the Gentiles was he not also writing to them Also ?
The ungodly he mentioned was ungodly meant for both Jew and Gentile ?

Paul is saying ONLY Faith in Jesus saves. Yet James is saying it is NOT Only Faith in Jesus but goes back to law of Moses> Love God Love Neighbor ?

What is the difference regarding doing ‘‘works of the Law’’. ‘‘First’’ Jews doing ‘‘works of the Law’’ BEFORE faith in Jesus. Later Jews is doing ‘‘works of the Law’’ with faith in Christ ?

 

[shaky]

A-- No, he believed in Jesus. He had faith in him … but, also loved his secular life. The cost of discipleship was too great for him.

B – When he/she is practicing the Law of Love / Beatitudes, and in union with Christ’s Church and receiving Sacraments. Also, when he/she is using the talents wisely given them by Christ.

C – When they are Confirmed in HS by Christ. When God’s anointed lay hands on them and they desire to be filled with H.S. They must be fully confessed, water Baptised, and ready for discipleship. Then the Baptism of Fire can be received …
[so said St. Thomas Aquinas] … and when was he ever wrong ??

A] Could we still believe in Jesus but the cost of discipleship is to great for us and we will still be saved ?

B] Thanks for the clarification.

C] I understand a Person FIRST has do go through 6 months or More Catechism. BEFORE they get baptised and hands layed on them to ‘‘receive the holy spirit’’.
Scripture show that the NATURAL Man receives not the things of spirit of God. Neither can he know them because he is not spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14

How Can a NATURAL Man who has not received the holy spirit yet. Supposed to receive [Catechism] the things of the spirit. When he is not spiritually discerned ?

Should not one FIRST be baptised and hands layed on them to receive holy spirit of God. Then having the Holy Spirit they can receive the things of the Spirit of God > Catechism.
Because they are spiritually decerned ?

Confession ‘‘before’’ Baptism I thought Confession ‘‘Only’’ came ‘‘after’’ baptism. for sins committed after baptism

 

[brb3]

A.) Should not one FIRST be baptised and hands layed on them to receive holy spirit of God. Then having the Holy Spirit they can receive the things of the Spirit of God > Catechism.
Because they are spiritually decerned ?

B,) Confession ‘‘before’’ Baptism I thought Confession ‘‘Only’’ came ‘‘after’’ baptism. for sins committed after baptism

A – Nope. Normally speaking, the order for an Adult is hearing the Good News Gospel via preaching / scripture / evangelization, study of the CCC ---- then the heart / mind is convicted of sin, then one repents via confession, desires water baptism, and finally is Confirmed in HS.
The HS draws one to confess, be baptized and desire confirmation. Once this happens … then the HS enters [indwells] the Convert, marking the soul with God’s abiding presence.

B – only in cases of infant baptism, where confession precedes Confirmation in HS. Confirmation normally follows Baptism.