Faith Alone

[Pax]

Your interpretation turns this verse on its head. First its not works, then it is works.

Trent puts a different spin on it. Ludwig Ott emphasizes this in these words:

Justification is the declaration of the righteousness of the believer before the judgment seat of Christ…The Council of Trent teaches that for the justified eternal life is both a gift or grace promised by God** and a reward for his own good works and merits**… According to Holy Writ, eternal blessedness in heaven is the reward…for good works performed on this earth, and rewards and merit are correlative concepts (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp.254, 264).
Actually the scriptures say that it is unambiguously by Faith. Works come after and is our reasonable duty. Those who have been regenerated WANT to do the works because they have been saved.

this is sanctification not salvation

again this is not pertaining to salvation

All wonderful verses, but not pertaining to salvation.

Kaycee,

You never answered my question, but only went on to make a number of other mistakes concerning Catholic teaching by selectively quoting from Ludwig Ott. I have Ott’s book and I have read all of the canons of Trent. You misrepresent both.

Now answer my question. “Why do you deny it when the bible clearly teaches that faith is not only a gift but that it is also a work?” Please explain this.

Likewise, please explain how I have turned Ephesians on its head since all I did was quote it and merely emphasized what it said. Don’t simply make some glib and rather silly statement to blow off the truth of the passage.

All of my statements are congruent with the Canons of Trent. You should read them all.

Please, before you go any further answer clearly and with accurate exegesis exactly what I said about Ephesians 2:8-10 and all of the other supporting verses that I gave on grace. Forget about introducing Trent and Ott whom you selectively quote. Simply stick to scripture…afterall, you believe in sola scriptura and should be able to handle it.

 

[Pax]

…
…
this is sanctification not salvation

again this is not pertaining to salvation

All wonderful verses, but not pertaining to salvation.

Do you not know what the bible says about sanctification and salvation?

In speaking of entering heaven scripture tells us the following:

Rev 21:24-
y its light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it, and its gates shall never be shut by day–and there shall be no night there; they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean shall enter it, (you must be sanctified in order to enter heaven)

Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (another statement showing the requirement of sanctification)

Now look at what scripture says about sanctification:

Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood. (Notice this is exactly what Jesus did for our justification)
Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified. (our heavenly inheritance is tied to our sanctification. You do not inherit eternal life without first being sanctified.)
1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: (more of the same)

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.
(another very direct connection…sanctification’s end is eternal life.)

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, (those that are sanctified are adopted sons and daughters…they have the inheritance of eternal life.)

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (again, we are justified and sanctified by the same means.)
1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: (same is true of justification)

2 Thess 2:13
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (**salvation **through sanctification by the spirit)

It should now be obvious that we are not saved without being fully sanctified. That means that we are not saved by faith alone. Likewise, scripture says another thing or two that proves that we are not saved by faith alone. Here’s another one:

Romans 8:24 (KJV)
“For we are** saved by hope**”

There are many more verses that talk about salvation that go well beyond simply talking about faith. If you need them, I will be glad to provide them.

 

[emeraldisle]

Why should I practice anything to please God? I’m already saved right? I can just sit on my behind all day long and at the very end God will be just as pleased with me because of the “finished work of Lord Jesus on the Cross”, right?

Does a wretched vile sinner who has had his sins forgiven not have a grateful/thankful heart to God? Does a vile sinner who has received Gods forgiveness & mercy in Christ Jesus not want to live a life that pleases and honors his merciful/loving God?

I didn’t know becoming a Christian and getting a free pass to heaven was so easy.

It wasn’t easy, the Lord Jesus went to the cross to die a terrible death so that we could be reconciled to God through Him. The gift of salvation is free to mankind but it cost God so much to send His only begotten Son to the cross to die for us!

.

 

[rtconstant]

Does a wretched vile sinner who has had his sins forgiven not have a grateful/thankful heart to God? Does a vile sinner who has received Gods forgiveness & mercy in Christ Jesus not want to live a life that pleases and honors his merciful/loving God?

Of course everyone who “walks the isle”, “goes to the mourner’s bench” and or prays the “sinner’s prayer” are grateful. However, not everyone is in the same place when they are saved. For some there are addicitions and a lifetime of bad upbringing and choices that make the Christian walk hard. When the “back slide” then in Clavinistic Churches these people suddenly are discovered to lack “saving faith”. “Saving Faith” is one of the key Phantoms of Calinist theology. It is an invention created whole cloth to explain the rather obvious scriptural and logical problems OSAS innovation.

It wasn’t easy, the Lord Jesus went to the cross to die a terrible death so that we could be reconciled to God through Him. The gift of salvation is free to mankind but it cost God so much to send His only begotten Son to the cross to die for us!

All very true but there is more. Before Christ died he spent three years teaching us how we are expected to behave. This wasn’t something he did because he needed something to do until he was crucified. He spent his time teaching because God expects certain things from us. Nor would he have wasted time teaching us these things if He was simply going to force us to do them as in the case of super Calvinism. The teachings of both Christ and the Apostles are emphatically clear that we have responsibilities and accountablity.

The Irony is that Calvinists actually are well aware of this. It isn’t Catholicism which is “adding” works to salvation. It is Calvinism which is attempting to remove our accountability and responsibility from the Gospel and thus skip over large sections and even whole books of Scripture in order to do so. While at the same time demanding just as strongly as Catholics for everyone to live moral lives. The funny thing is that all of the loop jumping and scripture hopping is all done appease the ego of a dead reformation theologian who no longer even has a dog in this race. Fact is you know that you got to walk the walk so why play these games of inventing new theologies to keep up the appearance of a movement which ceased to have any relevance to the Church 4 centuries ago.

Finally, let us look to the first Christian who was and is still our greatest example of the Christian life. How did Mary accept Christ as her Lord and Messiah? She gave assent (the Fiat). What happened next? The Holy Spirit filled her with Our Lord and Savior Jesus Chirst. What happened after that? She carried our Lord her breath became His breath, Her blood became His blood, Her water became His water. We see in Mary’s Fiat a responsibility that was both spritual and physical.

Mary and the Christ Child grew together their wants and needs became unified then at the appointed time she presented Our Lord to the World. This was not a one time event. She and He walked together appeared in public together. She nutured Him and He taught her. She walked the path of Our Lord right up to the Cross.

The Christian life is not a one time event. Mary’s fiat was not a singular event that once she accepted meant no more was required of her. No, indeed that’s when things got tough. Mary suffered, worked, bled and wept for Our Lord. If you want to know what’s expected from a Child of God look at Our Mother. Look deep into that heart that stored away everything that Our Lord said and did and then you’ll understand what is required of us.

Salvation isn’t a get out of Jail free card it is a life long commitment. Salvation isn’t about going to Heaven, that’s a just a perk, salvation is about reclaiming the original nature that God intended for all of us, and that my friends takes work.

 

[guanophore]

I think you are confusing the “position” & the “practice” of a Christian.

The “position” of a Christian is that he is a child of God through the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross. The Christians faith is in Lord Jesus and He gives him the wonderful “position” of being a child of God.

The “practice” of a Christian is his life as a child of God, he now seeks to live a life that glorifies(pleases) God because he is a child of God. This “practice” of a new life as a child of God does not change his “position” as a child of God. His “position” as a child of God has been firmly established by what the Lord Jesus has done on the cross.

A Christian should want to live right before God because of Gods great love and mercy shown to him through the Lord Jesus and His finished work on the cross.

.

I agree with all this, except that practice does not change position. It is possible for a person to throw away, or sell their birthright. In his epistle to believers, Jude gives examples:

“Now I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day; 7 just as Sodom and Gomor’rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” Jude 5-7

Especially here the agnesl, who did not keep their position, but left. It does not change the fact that they are angels, they are just now fallen angels. Likewise, once a person has been born again, one is eternally changed. However, one can still, even in that postion, be cut off from the household of God.

" Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matt 3:10

If a person begins in Christ, then does not remain, such a one shall not escape the second death:

" I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-7

Jesus will blot his name out of the book of life.

 

[guanophore]

Not sure you understand. I am certainly not saying official catholic doctrine says works only salvation, although i find that probably close to 90% of american catholics do think that very thing. I do not believe in Christ + anything for salvation. The RCC does. Call it merit, works, etc.
Rom 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

I am quite sure I do not understand. Can you please explain how the Catholic teaching on salvation by grace is different from what you now believe? Perhaps my confusion arises from the artificial separation you are making between salvation, and the effect of that saving grace in the life of the believer? Jesus says that those who are in Him will bear good fruit.

“By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.” John 15:8

How can someone “prove” themselves to be a disciple who lacks this fruit? For Catholics, it is not Christ “and” anything. Rather, it is all in Him, through HIm, and with Him, in the unity of the HS.

Holy works are the reflection of the saved soul, not an “addition” to salvation. Do you understand why I am confused?

The RC claim that it is all grace rings hollow, especially when cooporation is required.

Can you please explain how God will save someone against their will? If a person does not have to cooperate with grace, how else can a person reject God’s purpose for themselves? If God desires all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, why, then, are all men not saved?

Why does God say:

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days,

If no choice exists?

Ludwig Ott emphasizes this in these words:

Justification is the declaration of the righteousness of the believer before the judgment seat of Christ…The Council of Trent teaches that for the justified eternal life is both a gift or grace promised by God and a reward for his own good works and merits… According to Holy Writ, eternal blessedness in heaven is the reward…for good works performed on this earth, and rewards and merit are correlative concepts (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp.254, 264).

How does this statement of Ott contradict:

" Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." James 2:21-26

Not for Salvation.

I think this may be a matter of semantics. Catholics will say that Paul did not separate the grace that produces justification from the grace that produces good works. It is all the same grace, from the same source, and saving grace produces saving works.

I Actually had no intention of leaving the RCC but was thumbing thru a catechism while preparing for marriage, when at work a baptist minister friend showed me what the bible said and God thru the scripture opened my eyes to salvation and regenerated me.

Praise God for the awakening of your spirit! Yes, I had this same experience with a Baptist, and it was Baptists that taught me to read, study, and appreciate scripture.

An interesting thought, possibly true for the crowns but not for Salvation.

" Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life."
Rev 2:10

This commandment is given in the imperative mode, which linguistically is saying “do this”. If it is not the responsiblity of the believer to do this, why is Jesus commanding it?

Certainly they have value in God’s eyes, but not for salvation. We have been saved while we were God’s enemies, Dead in trespasses and sins. All we will ever have are filthy rags brought to bring to Him. I cannot find scriptural support for the RC salvation formula.

I cannot find what you are calling “RC salvation formula” anywhere! I will keep trying though, so I can understand what you are saying. I fear it may exist only in your head, and not in the Church teaching.

" My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20

Can sins be covered in any other manner than by the blood of Christ? Can one person save another person;s soul from death?

 

[kaycee]

I am quite sure I do not understand. Can you please explain how the Catholic teaching on salvation by grace is different from what you now believe? Perhaps my confusion arises from the artificial separation you are making between salvation,

Yes, we believe that our standing for eternal salvation is based on Jesus perfect atonement for the believer, Justification. Sanctification is our earthly transformation progress towards holiness and at eventually at death being like Jesus. However the level of sanctification is not the basis for the eternal destination. The difference is imputed righteousness vs infused righteousness.

and the effect of that saving grace in the life of the believer? Jesus says that those who are in Him will bear good fruit.

“By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.” John 15:8

Offcourse, but how are we placed in Him? It is not by cooperation for we must be IN HIM first, before we can even think of doing works. Bearing fruit is glorifying to the Father and proves to others that we are indeed in Christ. There is a clear distinction, and dovetails nicely with Eph 2:8-10.

How can someone “prove” themselves to be a disciple who lacks this fruit? For Catholics, it is not Christ “and” anything. Rather, it is all in Him, through HIm, and with Him, in the unity of the HS.

Prove to whom? Does not Christ know those whom are His?

Holy works are the reflection of the saved soul, not an “addition” to salvation. Do you understand why I am confused?

I can understand your confusion but not sure where talking about same Faith. What i mean is a full heart felt belief and trust in the person of Jesus Christ by faith in his atoning death on the Cross to fully pay for my sin. Where as I can stand fully righteous and acceptable to God based on Christ’s satisfying death and ressurection. THis is condemned by Trent.

Can you please explain how God will save someone against their will? If a person does not have to cooperate with grace, how else can a person reject God’s purpose for themselves? If God desires all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, why, then, are all men not saved?

Why does God say:

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days,

If no choice exists?

God opens our eyes and gives us the ability to chose Him. We would never chose Him with His intervention.

How does this statement of Ott contradict:

" Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” James 2:21-26 The whole James quote is for those “Who say they have saving faith” , but no works. How can “that kind of faith save”? It cant, a saving Faith WILL have works as a result, not to attain salvation.

I cannot find what you are calling “RC salvation formula” anywhere! I will keep trying though, so I can understand what you are saying. I fear it may exist only in your head, and not in the Church teaching.

I may be wrong however RCC requires saving faith to consist of Faith in Christ, belief in basically every doctrine of the RCC including all the Marian and Papacy doctrines, baptismal regeneration. Works consisting of continual confession to a priest to remain in a state of grace, mandatory attendance to all Holy days of obligation under penalty of mortal sin (grace destroying) and obedience to the Pope. I may be missin some in my haste, but this is what I believe when I say “RC salvation forumula”.
QUOTE]

 

[guanophore]

Yes, we believe that our standing for eternal salvation is based on Jesus perfect atonement for the believer, Justification. Sanctification is our earthly transformation progress towards holiness and at eventually at death being like Jesus. However the level of sanctification is not the basis for the eternal destination. The difference is imputed righteousness vs infused righteousness.

Are you saying that the goal of sanctification is not righteousness?

Do you believe that every Christian is “like Christ” at death?

Offcourse, but how are we placed in Him? It is not by cooperation for we must be IN HIM first, before
we can even think of doing works. Bearing fruit is glorifying to the Father and proves to others that we are indeed in Christ. There is a clear distinction, and dovetails nicely with Eph 2:8-10.

Right. So, I don’t see any difference between what you write here, and Catholic soteriology.

Prove to whom? Does not Christ know those whom are His?

You just answered this question in your comment above. Fruit (good works) proves to others that we are abiding in Christ.

I may be wrong however RCC requires saving faith to consist of Faith in Christ, belief in basically every doctrine of the RCC including all the Marian and Papacy doctrines, baptismal regeneration. Works consisting of continual confession to a priest to remain in a state of grace, mandatory attendance to all Holy days of obligation under penalty of mortal sin (grace destroying) and obedience to the Pope. I may be missin some in my haste, but this is what I believe when I say “RC salvation forumula”.

Jesus told His apostles to “teach all that I have commanded you”, and these are the things they taught. I think the only error you are making is your conception of the word “works”. You clearly are not delineating sacred works from works of the flesh.

I can understand your confusion but not sure where talking about same Faith. What i mean is a full heart felt belief and trust in the person of Jesus Christ by faith in his atoning death on the Cross to fully pay for my sin. Where as I can stand fully righteous and acceptable to God based on Christ’s satisfying death and ressurection. THis is condemned by Trent.

Can you please show where you find this in the documents of Trent? I think Trent said the opposite. In fact, it has been a consistent teaching of the Church for 2000 years that a person who is baptized and immediately dies will immediately go to the presence of Christ.

guanophore:

Can you please explain how God will save someone against their will? If a person does not have to cooperate with grace, how else can a person reject God’s purpose for themselves? If God desires all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, why, then, are all men not saved?

You did not answer this one either.

guanophore:

Why does God say:

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days,

If no choice exists?

God opens our eyes and gives us the ability to chose Him. We would never chose Him with His intervention.

Indeed, this is very Catholic to say. It is referred to in Western thought as prevenient grace.

guanophore:

YOu did not answer this one, so I will leave it here. Please explain to me how faith is not completed by works in this passage.

Can you please explain how God will save someone against their will? If a person does not have to cooperate with grace, how else can a person reject God’s purpose for themselves? If God desires all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, why, then, are all men not saved?

Please explain how works are irrelevant here:

" Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." James 2:21-26

How is Abraham’s faith complete without actions that demonstrate it to be present?

I agree that the passage in James is written for “faith alone” thinkers, who believed that their deeds had no bearing on their salvation.

 

[emeraldisle]

Mary suffered, worked, bled and wept for Our Lord. If you want to know what’s expected from a Child of God look at Our Mother. Look deep into that heart that stored away everything that Our Lord said and did and then you’ll understand what is required of us.

When a child of God wants to know how to live a life that glorifies and honors God he reads Gods written Word. God teaches His children in His written Word how to live for His glory.

Salvation isn’t a get out of Jail free card it is a life long commitment. Salvation isn’t about going to Heaven, that’s a just a perk, salvation is about reclaiming the original nature that God intended for all of us, and that my friends takes work.

Salvation is of the Lord, the Lord Jesus died on the cross to reconcile sinners to a holy & just God.

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Jesus will blot his name out of the book of life.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:28-29

.

 

[guanophore]

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:28-29

.

So, we are in agreement? Jesus will preserve those who remain in HIm, and those that do not (choose to jump from his hand, or bite it) he will blot out their name from the book of life.

 

[rtconstant]

When a child of God wants to know how to live a life that glorifies and honors God he reads Gods written Word. God teaches His children in His written Word how to live for His glory.

Where do you think everything I wrote there came from? God’s Word is His Son Jesus Christ. We draw closer to Him by adherence to His teachings much of which is contained in Sacred Scripture. It doesn’t make sense to post a defense of Sacred Scripture against a non-existent threat by ignoring the lessons that Scripture teaches us.

Salvation is of the Lord, the Lord Jesus died on the cross to reconcile sinners to a holy & just God.

Indeed. Glad you agree. Here’s the thing though there is a base level work that all Christians must perform and do so regularly and that is the fiat. One must accept the grace of Faith, one must except the urgings of the Holy Spirit. This is cooperation. You may not like to call it that yet that is what it is. Being saved is not a one time event it is a continual submission to the will of God.

 

[emeraldisle]

So, we are in agreement? Jesus will preserve those who remain in HIm, and those that do not (choose to jump from his hand, or bite it) he will blot out their name from the book of life.

Why is the Lord Jesus blotting out the names of those whom His Father has given Him and He has promised to keep?

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:28-29

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Where do you think everything I wrote there came from? God’s Word is His Son Jesus Christ. We draw closer to Him by adherence to His teachings much of which is contained in Sacred Scripture. It doesn’t make sense to post a defense of Sacred Scripture against a non-existent threat by ignoring the lessons that Scripture teaches us.

Ok give me the Bible references for your comments in post #44, so I can be like the Bereans and check if what you are stating is biblical truth.

.

 

[Pax]

Why is the Lord Jesus blotting out the names of those whom His Father has given Him and He has promised to keep?

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:28-29

.

It appears that you are an OSAS believer. Let’s take a look at this.

The story of the prodigal son pretty much says it all. The son left the household on his own accord. Upon coming to his senses he returns to his father’s household and confesses that he has sinned. Scripture then gives us the clear message about what has taken place. In Luke 15:22-24 it says:

“the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet and bring the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry; for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to make merry.”

Jesus is telling this parable about salvation. The son was a member of the household but “squandered his inheritance.” The son was “dead.” Upon returning in repentance to the household, the son is “alive again.”

This truth of wandering off in sin and then being restored is spoken of elsewhere in scripture as well. For instance in James 5:19-20 it says,

“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

These two passages of scripture totally debunk OSAS yet there are many more. I have personally researched in excess of 60 passages that deny the teaching. Moreover, only a few verses of scriptures can be spun in some erroneous way to support it. Proponents of the doctrine seem to stake the teaching of OSAS heavily on Jesus statement that “…I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.” Not surprisingly, this verse does not add up to what those that teach OSAS would like it to.

Naturally, Catholics say “Amen” to this verse but we understand it a little differently. OSAS proponents apparently believe that this verse demonstrates that the “true believer” cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” We believe that this verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated.

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads, “Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from Jesus’s or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal.

OSAS believers also depend heavily on 1 John 2:19 which says:

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”

Please be advised that this verse does not support OSAS. This verse was written by John for the express purpose of warning Christian believers about false teachers that have gone out in the spirit of anti-Christ. It simply does not support OSAS. If anything it denies it. Let’s look at the verse in context.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

1 John 2:18-25
“Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.”

This passage of scripture is telling us the following:

1. The anti-Christ is coming and is already working.
2. These anti-Christs are not to be listened to because they are false teachers.
3. They are recognized as false teachers because they have left the Church and its teachings. They even deny that Jesus is the Christ.
4. If they were not false teachers in the spirit of anti-Christ they would have continued in the fellowship of the church, but since they have left they are therefore easily recognized as false teachers.
5. The believers have already been given the truth and know the truth. There is no need for them to be taught something new.
6. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.
7. The word abide means “remain(s)” and John says: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide[remain] in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides[remains] in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

This entire passage is a warning to believers concerning false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, the warning clearly indicates that the truth that these believers were taught from the beginning must “remain” in them for them to remain in the Father and the Son. If they remain faithful they will receive eternal life.

This passage is a denial of OSAS and in no way supports it.

 

[Pax]

Kaycee,

Please address my post 41 and 42.

Thank you.

 

[Pax]

Justification is the declaration of the righteousness of the believer before the judgment seat of Christ.
kaycee;3624229:

Yes, we believe that our standing for eternal salvation is based on Jesus perfect atonement for the believer, Justification. Sanctification is our earthly transformation progress towards holiness and at eventually at death being like Jesus. However the level of sanctification is not the basis for the eternal destination. The difference is imputed righteousness vs infused righteousness.

Please show me in scripture where it states that justification is nothing more than a mere declaration of righteousness before the judgment seat of Christ, and that sanctification does not accompany justification by way of being “born again.” Please show me by way of scripture that at the moment of our justification that we are not also made holy. If you can clearly demonstrate this then perhaps your contention that righteousness is not infused will have some level of credibility.

In the meantime please consider the following verses of scripture:

ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Are we not made holy when we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ Are we not made holy when our sins are washed away?

GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Are we not made holy when we put on Christ?

TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, Are we not made holy by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit?

Heb 10:22
let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Are we not made holy when our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience?

 

[Pax]

Kaycee,

Here is some more food for thought on what it means to be a new creation.

God tells us the following in Isaiah 55:10-11:

“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return not thither but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.”

In Ezk 36:25-28 God says:

“I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.”

ACTS 2:37-38
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

An examination of the passage Isaiah reveals that God’s grace goes out in power and that it accomplishes his purpose and that it prospers in the thing which he sends it. What is God’s purpose in giving us his grace and the gift of faith? God’s purpose is to reconcile us to himself and to make us a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works.[Eph 21:8-10]
It can further be said that God’s purpose is to make us “…conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.”[Romans 8:29] Jesus is the first born and we are born anew among many brethren. It is God’s that grace will accomplish the purpose of conforming us to the image of his son Jesus.

An examination of the passage from Ezekiel reveals that it is a solid prefiguring of baptism and Christian initiation as outlined in the passage from the book of Acts. In baptism we born are anew.[John 3:7] Both Ezekiel and Acts tell us something about what it means to be a new creation.

–Ezekiel says, “…you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”
–The Book of Acts says, “so that your sins may be forgiven.”

–Ezekiel says, “A new heart I will give you.”
–The Book of Acts says, “they were cut to the heart.”

–Ezekiel says, “and a new spirit I will put within you;”
–The book of Acts says, “and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

It is clear then that being born anew or being a new creation involves several things. God will change our hearts, cleanse us from original sin as well as all personal sins we have committed, and he will give us the gift of the Holy Spirit. Scripture elaborates on all of this in many places in the NT. All of this is accomplished at the point of justification and we are made holy. Paul says it this way, “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”[1 Cor 6:9-11]

cont. on next post:

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post:

Paul also addresses the issue of what it means to be a new creation in the following:

Romans 6:1-6
WHAT SHALL we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

Romans 7:4-6
Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

2 Cor 5:14-17
For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once regarded Christ from a human point of view, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

Gal 6:7-15
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith. See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh that would compel you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. For even those who receive circumcision do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may glory in your flesh. But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Gal 5:5-6
For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Gal 5:1-26
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.

1 Cor 9:21
To those outside the law I became as one outside the law–not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ.

From these scriptures we can clearly see what it means to be a new creation in Christ Jesus. Much more can be said about this in terms of how this is related to “adoption.” For example we see the power of God’s grace as previously described in Ezekiel being made manifest in the spirit of adoption in John 3:1-2 which says:

“SEE WHAT love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
Beloved, we are God’s children now”

**Just like in Ezekiel, God’s word goes out in power. When God declares us children we actually become his children, and his grace will fulfill his purpose and his grace will prosper within us. **

cont. on next post: