Faith Alone

[Pax]

Please research the four gospels and tell me everything that they say about works.

If we are saved by believing the gospel, then one must include what the gospel says about works. The gospel makes it clear that works are an integral part of salvation.

 

[csandoval]

You are clearly wrong in saying that a “believer” is going to keep on sinning because we are still in the flesh.

The apostle Paul is very specific about this and he says:

Romans 7:5
“While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.”

This refers to our past lives prior to faith. After faith we live in the Spirit not in the flesh. This is reinforced by this passage:

I did not say to walk in the flesh

Roman 8:3-9
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

**I totally agree.
**
Grace empowers us to lead holy lives and frees us from committing sin. Do not underestimate the power of God’s grace. If you truly wish to be led by the Spirit and to live in the Spirit, God will give you what you need.

Paul also says this on the subject:

1 Cor 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

I hope this helps, but if you need more I can provide it by way of multiple scriptures.

What does the next verse say:::
Romans 8:10-11
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

I never said that you SHOULD LIVE in sin.

What is Paul talking about in Romans 7:14-25 ?
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Also, I know for sure that I am saved because of Jesus.

Romans 8:31-39

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[guanophore]

We are saved by believing in the Gospel.

Absolutely! And the Gospel that has been handed down to us from the Blessed Apostles tells us we are saved for the purpose of works:

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. **10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. **

The good works that saving faith produces can in no way be separated from the gift of God (grace) that creates them. Many Protestants read vs 8-9 and stop, separating the grace that produces good works from the grace that saves. This is not Apostolic Teaching. Saving faith is faith that works. The idea of separating saving faith from the fruit that befits repentance is a modern innovation, and what the Apostles would consider “another gospel”.

 

[moondweller]

So your saying that the act of “accepting Christ as your personal lord and Saviour” which of course can’t be found in scripture, word for word, is a work by defination and can’t save you. Then what does save you?

In which post did I write “accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior?” But to answer your question “Then what does save you?” - it’s not “what,” but a “Who.” God Himself saved me “by grace through faith, as a gift, not as a result of works.”

Why do you believe that your acceptance of Christ on some level will force God to grant his mercy to you at the final judgement.

Sean, I won’t be standing before God at the “final” judgment. That one’s for unbelievers, the “dead” who have died in their sins (Jn. 8:24) - not the “living” in Christ (Jn. 5:24).

Doesn’t that belief make your act of acceptance a work and responsible for your salvation?

Again, where did I use the word “acceptance?” Salvation is by grace, through faith. Paul says, “not as a result of works,” hence, according to Pauline theology faith is not a work. I believe in Christ, I don’t “accept” Him - He accepts me because He met all the conditions for my salvation - perfectly.

 

[moondweller]

Your use of “renounced” again points to something that has been given up by one who was in possession of it.

Getting a little nitpicky there, Phil? No, not necessarily in possession of it, but certainly personal exposure to it. Apostasy defects from something. In this case, true Christianity.

It seems that what you intended to say is that apostasy is, simply, the rejection of the gospel message from someone who never believed it and a substitution of that message for one of their own making. Is that what you meant to say? If so, would you mind sharing where you get such a definition of apostasy?

So you did understand it. Same place you do, but I don’t read into it the idea of true belief. Apostates actually think they have believed, and they can’t be convinced otherwise.

 

[guanophore]

In which post did I write “accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior?”

If not, the perhaps you can explain how come you are saved, and there are some people who are not? How did you get the work of Christ on the cross applied to yourself? Obviously the saving grace is not applied to all…

But to answer your question “Then what does save you?” - it’s not “what,” but a “Who.” God Himself saved me "by grace through faith, as a gift, not as a result of works. Again, where did I use the word “acceptance?” Salvation is by grace, through faith. Paul says, “not as a result of works,” hence, according to Pauline theology faith is not a work. I believe in Christ, I don’t “accept” Him - He accepts me because He met all the conditions for my salvation - perfectly.

How is it that you were able to meet these, and others died in their sins?

I think you may have a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is a faculty of man, and is under the control (willpower) of man. Man can choose to place his faith where he so desires. This act of the will is a “work” (something a person does). As we can see in the following passage, it is a work required by Jesus:

John 6:27-29
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that **you believe in him **whom he has sent.”

 

[guanophore]

 No, not necessarily in *possession* of it, but certainly personal exposure to it.  Apostasy defects from something.  In this case, true Christianity.

Ahhh. I think this is a beginning of an answer to the question “how do you define apostasy”. I agree with you, it is a defection from something. So, in order for one to apostasize, one must have embraced something first, right? Or do you maintain that it is possible to apostosize when one has never embraced a belief?

So you did understand it. Same place you do, but I don’t read into it the idea of true belief. Apostates actually think they have believed, and they can’t be convinced otherwise.

Please tell us where you got your definition of apostasy.

 

[csandoval]

Absolutely! And the Gospel that has been handed down to us from the Blessed Apostles tells us we are saved for the purpose of works:

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. **10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. **

The good works that saving faith produces can in no way be separated from the gift of God (grace) that creates them. Many Protestants read vs 8-9 and stop, separating the grace that produces good works from the grace that saves. This is not Apostolic Teaching. Saving faith is faith that works. The idea of separating saving faith from the fruit that befits repentance is a modern innovation, and what the Apostles would consider “another gospel”.

Okay, from what you posted here:::
I don’t read anywhere that we are saved by works. I read that by Grace we are saved through Jesus. And yes, once you are saved, Jesus then lives through you and therefore you do good works but it is because of him but not for your salvation, for HIS GLORY.

Maybe Pax should read your post.

 

[guanophore]

Okay, from what you posted here:::
I don’t read anywhere that we are saved by works. I read that by Grace we are saved through Jesus. And yes, once you are saved, Jesus then lives through you and therefore you do good works but it is because of him but not for your salvation, for HIS GLORY.

Maybe Pax should read your post.

Indeed, we do not. This is a common misunderstanding about Catholicism. People that misunderstand the faith erroneously believe that the Church teaches we are saved by works.

The reason that you read in the NT that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus is because it is a Catholic book, written by, for, and about the Catholic faith.

Pax most likely will read my post, but that is irrelevant, because Pax already knows that this is the Apostolic Teaching that has been handed down to us.

 

[guanophore]

The "*true division*" consists of *people* who continue to adhere to these fundamental, biblically based doctrines of the Reformation:

Sola Scriptura: Scripture alone
Sola Gratia: Salvation by grace alone
Sola Fide: Salvation through faith alone
Solus Christus: Salvation in Christ alone
Soli Deo Gloria: To the glory of God alone

This is very candid of you, and I appreciate you saying it. These doctrines, indeed, are inventions of the reformaion, and were not believed by the Church that produced the bible upon which they claim to be based.

These did not begin with the Reformation (being the heart of Biblical revelation), but were again brought to theological prominence and to public awareness.

It is true that the Reformation has brought about a revisitation of heresies long ago dealt with by the Apostolic Church. It is aso true that the Reformers tried to base revelaton on the bible as they interpret it, rather than on the self-revealed revelation of God (Jesus Himself). Many protestants unwittingly have replaced Christ with the Bible.

Also, it’s God Himself who saves (completely), not the faith: "For by grace you have been been saved (i.e., by God) through faith…

The fruit of the Reformation is separation and division. We see some of that fruit here. The faith through which we are saved is not separated from the grace of God that gifts it, and neither is separated from the fruit that befits repentance. God saves completely, but He has chosen to do so through faith, and to demonstrate this is works of righteousness in people. To separate them is improper.

Truthfully, I was taught nothing about the RCC. I began to study its doctrines on my own.

Ok, perhaps you will enlighten us as to how your studies have informed your conception of “apostasy”.

I’m not saying God Himself sabotages His Word, but men and angels do, to their own perdition. This is not new but goes all the way back to Satan and Eve in the Garden: “Indeed, has God said…?” “You surely shall not die.” And Eve herself added the commandment to not “touch” to the original.

I agree. What you seem to be saying is that “millions of Catholics” have fallen into perdition by doing this (apostasy?) and I am wondering how you came to this conclusion.

apostasy is borne out of unbelief, never out of belief (an oxymoron).  Hence, apostasy begets apostates.  It multiplies after its own kind.  This side of the cross apostasy is a renunciation of the gospel of Christ. The divine gospel of God's grace renounced, repudiated and replaced by men with "*a gospel*" of human works.  This is what it means to "*fall from grace*."

Please explain why apostasy “this side of the cross” is different than apostasy on the other side.

If one has fallen away from grace, then such a person cannot beget anyone in grace, therefore, the followers of an apostate have never been in grace. How do they meet the definition of “apostate”? Are they not just run of the mill unbelievers?

I agree that apostasy is a renunciation the gospel of Christ. However, to renounce something, one has to embrace it first!

I think the divine gospel of grace can be replaced by a great many things, pelagianism being only one. I would also agree that a pelagian has fallen from grace, if indeed such a one first embraced the gospel of grace. In order to be a proper heretic, one must first have adhered to a belief. Otherwise, there is nothing from which to depart!

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

The good works that saving faith produces can in no way be separated from the gift of God (grace) that creates them. Many Protestants read vs 8-9 and stop, separating the grace that produces good works from the grace that saves. This is not Apostolic Teaching. Saving faith is faith that works. The idea of separating saving faith from the fruit that befits repentance is a modern innovation, and what the Apostles would consider “another gospel”.

The issue is not that the believer is saved for the purposes of doing good works, but whether or not those works merit further grace, further justification, and eternal life.

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

Please go back and read the point of my post and address the language of the verses that I and Catholic Dude have given you that support the Catholic teaching of “infused righteousness.” I have already pointed out that Catholics do not deny a juridical/imputed dimension of righteousness. Your problem is that you refuse to accept the “meaning” of the verses that we presented which all pertain to salvation and justification.

The case is indeed closed unless you can show that the verses we presented do not mean what they obviously say.

Pax the recent verses you cited dealt with baptism, and the giving of the HS to which I responded:

But, the Holy Spirit is not “infused” into the believer, rather, He oikeō, or “dwells in,” or “inhabits,” or “possesses” the believer (cf Rom 8:9, 11; 1 Cor 3:16; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 3:17; 2 Tim 1:14), in the way in which I dwell in my home—I’m not “infused into it,” rather, I “inhabit” , or “possess” it;
it belongs to me.

Pax:

By the way…I was not being ecumenical. Instead, I was expressing what has been the constant teaching within Christianity even prior to the Reformation.

And yet you can only offer the idea of “infused grace,” “infused righteousness” as “concepts.” OTOH, imputation is clearly taught in Scripture, and clearly applied by the apostle to the believer’s justification in Christ.

 

[kaycee]

The issue is not that the believer is saved for the purposes of doing good works, but whether or not those works merit further grace, further justification, and eternal life.

Amen, the believer is sealed by Holy Spirit and posseses Eternal Life. If heaven is based on cooporation with grace, and the believer can lose heaven, then the believer never had ETERNAL life, By definition eternal life has no end and is, well, eternal!

If I have eternal life, it cannot end, by definition. If I can lose it, then IT cannot be called eternal, for it can end.

In reality RC theology gives only conditional life base on cooportation (merit, works, no longer grace, basis for boasting, Rom 11:6, Gal 3:18).

The imputed righteousnes of Christ is what gives Eternal Life, sanctification is what follows, but does not add to the eternal destiny.

 

[sandusky]

Catholic Dude:

If you believe in the concept of Sanctification and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which I know you do, then you must believe grace is a substance which enters your soul.

That is what one says when one cannot substantiate what one believes.
Catholic Dude:

Many people rip Eph 2:8f out of context. The context starts back in ch1 and is emphasized in places like 2:5. The power of God which entered Christ and physically resurrected Him in turn is what enters our souls and makes us spiritually alive. To say “grace” in this context is mere favor shown is insufficient, this is about a transformation of the soul.

Scripture is clear that the new birth is transformation; that’s not the issue. What I’m waiting for is the substantiation of “grace,” and “righteousness” as “substances” infused into the believer.
Catholic Dude:

This is explicit proof that grace and justification are about an inner transformation of the soul. The “justified by his grace” here corresponds to “washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit poured out on us”.

Rebirth as inner transformation is not an issue. Also, you insist that the Spirit being “poured out on us” evidences “infusion into the believer.” The text says, “poured out on (as opposed to “infused into us”) us.
Catholic Dude:

These passages cannot have grace mean simply showing favor or else the passages would make no sense.

Then substantiate, rather than assert, that grace is more than showing favor, but that grace is, in fact, an infusible substance.
Catholic Dude:

Infused righteousness and infused grace are interchangeable terms.

Can you cite any councils, infallible or otherwise, which confirm your definition?
Catholic Dude:

It says God’s love is given as is the Spirit that is given. The context 5:1f demonstrate that we are dealing with justification and grace here.

Yes, however, I believe that you are insisting that this is an “infusion of grace and righteousness;” yet, the passage does not mention “righteousness,” and of the grace it is said that the believer stands in the grace, rather than the grace being “infused into the believer.”
Catholic Dude:

The word “infused” does NOT have to appear for the CONCEPT to be true. The word “Trinity” does not appear yet it conveys a CONCEPT that is Biblical.

The proof for the Trinity and for the imputation of righteousness is more than adequate; however, the same cannot be said of “infusion of grace and righteousness.”
Catholic Dude:

The Protestant CONCEPT of justification which EXCLUDES the concept of a spiritual transformation in favor of an alien status imputed has a tough time explaining passages which indicate a transformation in the soul at that very moment.

To which passages are you referring? :ehh:

 

[sandusky]

Amen, the believer is sealed by Holy Spirit and posseses Eternal Life. If heaven is based on cooporation with grace, and the believer can lose heaven, then the believer never had ETERNAL life, By definition eternal life has no end and is, well, eternal!

If I have eternal life, it cannot end, by definition. If I can lose it, then IT cannot be called eternal, for it can end.

In reality RC theology gives only conditional life base on cooportation (merit, works, no longer grace, basis for boasting, Rom 11:6, Gal 3:18).

The imputed righteousnes of Christ is what gives Eternal Life, sanctification is what follows, but does not add to the eternal destiny.

:yup:

 

[sandusky]

Catholic Dude:

Long story short, when we read faith “was LOGIZOMAI as righteousness” THIS MEANS God saw that act of faith and considered it a righteous act and evidence of the righteous virtue of faith in Abraham’s soul…BECAUSE IT REALLY WAS a righteous act and true evidence of the righteous qualities in Abraham’s soul.

Your statement, which I’ve highlighted above, is the result of a faulty anthropology, IMO.

Witness God’s indictment of man through the apostle:**Romans 3:10-18

10 as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;

11 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God;

12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”

13 “Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they keep deceiving,” “The poison of asps is under their lips”;

14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,

16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,

17 And the path of peace they have not known.”

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”**You don’t believe that, and neither does your church teach that.

Rightly understood, that’s "bad news,” and that bad news must be rightly understood
before the true good news can be rightly embraced.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

In which post did I write "accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior?"The question is still, did you? And how did that force God to accept you as saved? But to answer your question “Then what does save you?” - it’s not “what,” but a “Who.” God Himself saved me "by grace through faith, as a gift, not as a result of works."Sean, I won’t be standing before God at the “final” judgment. So the verse “all will be judged” is incorrect, your faith forces God to count you among the saved. Wow not many calvinist have the guts to state what they really believe like you do here. Your greater than God because your faith forces him to accept you.That one’s for unbelievers, the “dead” who have died in their sins (Jn. 8:24) - not the “living” in Christ (Jn. 5:24).Again, where did I use the word “acceptance?” Salvation is by grace, through faith. Paul says, “not as a result of works,” hence, according to Pauline theology faith is not a work. I believe in Christ, (so you do or don’t accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, which one)
I don’t “accept” Him - He accepts me because He met all the conditions for my salvation - perfectly So you are forcing God to consider you saved. “Meeting conditions” is also a work, you are free to look it up.

Back in post #385 you clearly state that Salvation doesn’t come from (God’s) grace but from God himself. You go into greater detail by stating “by grace salvation is unmerited” yet here you claim you are saved “by grace thru faith.”

It’s good to see that you are growing in faith by coming here as you understanding of faith has grown to be more Catholic as shown above. Some good changes, keep up the good work.

 

[Vincent]

Then substantiate, rather than assert, that grace is more than showing favor, but that grace is, in fact, an infusible substance.

As I understand it, Catholic theology commonly presents grace *not *as a substance, but a quality, that is, an “accident” that modifies a substance. An “accident” by definition exists “in” a substance. In this sense, grace is “in” the soul: the former qualifies the latter.

 

[Pax]

I never said that you SHOULD LIVE in sin.

I never claimed that you said this. What you did say is as follows:

Yeah. But are you going to be able to do that??? Cease from sin??? I don’t think so. You are going to keep on sinning because we are still in the flesh.

I then demonstrated by scripture that it is possible for the Christian to stop sinning by way of God’s grace. So what’s the problem?

 

[Pax]

Okay, from what you posted here:::
I don’t read anywhere that we are saved by works. I read that by Grace we are saved through Jesus. And yes, once you are saved, Jesus then lives through you and therefore you do good works but it is because of him but not for your salvation, for HIS GLORY.

Maybe Pax should read your post.

Perhaps you should go back over this thread and read all of my posts.