Just as you do…
Yes, because everything is by grace…right?
The problem here is that you fail to admit that not all believers remain in Christ even though Jesus prayed for them. I think the problem is that you do not recognize the biblical truth that some people receive the grace of initial justification, and that sufficient grace is given them to persevere, but that these same people fall from grace by their own choosing. If I am wrong about this then you need to begin by explaining what Paul says here:
And this, I would say, is a good example of a Protestant mindset. Protesting causes divisions, divisions in the body, soul, and spirit. The division represented here is a common one, that a Catholic points to anyone nor anything “instead of Christ”. Such thinking denies the communion of the saints, an the work of the HS who unties us into one Body. Jesus grafted Peter into his own rockiness, and changed his name to reflect this fact. The Rock that was Christ has now subsumed Peter, who has also taken on that Rocklike character that emanates from divinely revealed Truth. God the Father revealed this Truth to Peter, and Christ recognized it for what it was.
Imo the problem in this discussion is that you avoiding the clear biblical Truth that Peter was kept in his faith by the Lord Jesus alone.
Because this is not the case. Jesus chooses to use others to build us up in faith. Jesus chose to build a Church, and create a Body, and make us members one of another, so that we could all build one another up in faith. Peter is not alone, but stands together with all the Apostles and Prophets from whom the foundation of the Church is formed.
God is able to keep us, but we are also able to spurn his grace.
Really…this is amusing. Jesus prayed for every Christian. He prayed for Judas, Simon the Magician, Alexander and Hymeneus, Ananias and Sapphira and others. These people were believers and they lost their salvation. Likewise, what about all of those that apostacize. Scripture says they were believers. Why do you refuse to accept scripture and admit that not all believers persevere?
I dont quite see how this implies that we will all be perfectly sanctified - or even equally sanctified - at the point of death. In fact, it doesnt even begin to address it; nor does it deal with the obvious reality that people are at different levels of holiness when they die - some have submitted their lives more to Christ than others. No, one would have to deny our ability to percieve holiness in another to accept your position. And if we do that, we would have to throw out your entire explanation of James 2 which requires that we “percieve” the faith of other through their works(in order to deny that faith and works are separate). Sorry, but it doesnt, and cant all hold together.
Excellent! And if it was alive and we then, over time, allow it to whither and fade like a branch apart from the vine, guess what? It dies! This is Catholic, not OSAS. Ongoing, living faith that requires an ongoing(Gal 6:9-10), active participation(Eph2:10) through the recreated(2Cor 5:17), grace-empowered(1Cor10:13) free will of a human being. Eternal life is a LIFE, not an EVENT.
"guanophore:
Well, this is where we part in our understanding of salvation,then. This passage you cite is about the resurrected body, which will be transformed into a glorious body. Catholics also believe this about the soul. We do not consider that God will allow snow covered dung heaps into heaven. We believe that Christ intends to transform our inner being, so that we can be joined with our citizenship in heaven. We believe that nothing unclean can enter heaven, and to the extent that we are still fallen, and attached to our sins (imperfect) we are not fit vessels for God’s glory. Yes, we have been declared citizens, praise be to God, but to actually BECOME citizens, we must be holy, as He is holy.
Again this speaks of the glorification that will occur at the end of time when we are joined to our resurrected bodies. However, Catholics understand this to be part of our salvation that has not yet occurred.
I do not understand what you are asserting "Jesus gives commands…there is an extent to which our faith is not made perfect until we are glorified in heaven. We are not yet a finished work, so long as we are on earth.
What do you understand these passages to be saying?
God will keep all those that choose to be kept. Peter repented of his sin, and threw himself upon the Mercy of God. This is the work of human beings. People need to repent, and place their faith in God. Without this faith mixing with God’s grace, God’s grace is of no avail to the person.
Did Jesus say to Peter I have prayed that your faith would not fail but I’m really depending upon you to keep your faith?
I would say that the fact that Christ prayed at all regarding Peter is a pretty good indication that Peter’s free will was still intact and that Christ’s prayer was that Peter would remain faithful through the trials he was to face.
Have you been reading my posts. Please go back and read at least # 74 where I go into this issue.
Well said.
Philthy said:
IMHO, that’s RC teaching.
That’s correct; man’s knowledge saves no one.
Interesting…
Easier said than proven, but ultimately irrelevent.
Your point escapes me.
Bold claim. Perhaps you meant to say that man’s knowledge alone saves no one, eh? After all, salvation is by Grace through faith, correct? I’d be interested in hearing of a single example of faith from the bible - or any other source - that excludes human knowledge.
Somehow, I knew that.God is the One Who justifies; and each one whom He justifies, He also glorifies (Rom 8:33, 30).