Faith Alone

[sandusky]

ChrisWRIT:

Hi sandusky,

Both predestination to grace & to glory are taught by the Bible. Where?

For starters:

Predestination to grace: Eph. 1:3-12
Predestination to glory: Rom. 8:18-30

There is no predestination to “grace,” wherein the those in that state might lose salvation; continue reading Ephesians 1; I’ve yet to have anyone clearly p(name removed by moderator)oint this group from the study of scripture; the existence of that elusive group is adduced by pointing to the many stern warnings with respect to the continuance in sinful behavior that is given in the epistles; however, as 1 Cor 11 states, God will end the life of the believer before he sins so badly as to lose salvation, and He does that so the believer “will not be condemned along with the world” (v32).

ChrisWRIT:

It seems to me that you’re cutting the verse down to only the last six words: “those he justified, he also glorified”, & ignoring the rest of it.

If you read the entire verse, it comes back to the question of who are the predestined that Paul is talking about? Logically, he can only be talking about those who are predestined to glory.

Only by selectively paying attention to the last third of the verse can one infer that justification is a one-time, permanent status that necessitates glory.

The whole of scripture cries out to the fact of election and predestination to glory with God’s perseverance being part and parcel of the whole package; I use the end of that verse because of the clarity of it—every single person justified by God has also been glorified by God in eternity—it’s a done deal.

ChrisWRIT:

And I agree with Paul’s words. But they do not say that we cannot leave of our own accord, or that we cannot fall from grace, but that nothing "can separate us from the love of God…"

**Romans 8:39

nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.**Are you a created thing, Christ? (cf Rom 9:20).

ChrisWRIT:

Both Paul & Jesus taught that we can be cut away from the Body of Christ. There are many examples of these facts, but here are just two.

I note that Rom. 8:37-39 also supports the fact that Paul was talking to “true Christians” in this letter, but only a few chapters later, in Rom.11:17-24, Paul warns them that even though we can be grafted in to the vine, we can also be cut off from it.

In this, he repeated Christ’s teaching that He is the true vine, we are the branches, but we can be cut off. (John 15:1-7)

I submit that you misunderstand those verses Chris. In Jn 6, Jesus states that it is His duty to raise all of those whom the Father foreknew, predestined and called to Him—do you think, with respect to salvation, that Christ is unable to do the will of the Father? (cf Jn 17).

ChrisWRIT:

As I’m sure you would agree, it is important to note ALL of scripture, not just select items that can be read to support ideas that are contradictory to the rest of the Bible.

The entire chapter shows that Paul is talking to baptized Christians about freedom from human regulations, which are not the means of salvation - Christ is.

Colossians 2:13 is the verse in question here, and the point of what Paul is saying is that Christ’s death on the cross forgave all of the believer’s transgressions, and that Christ’s death canceled ALL debt incurred by the believer. That being so, what can be done to, or by the believer to separate him from the love of God which is in Christ (Rom 8:35ff)?

ChrisWRIT:

However, the “no true Christian” argument seems to miss the fact that while justification is necessary to be glorified, glorification is not necessary for one to be justified, as justification can be lost.

**Romans 8:30

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.Where is the verse that states:and there is another group whom He predestined and also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; but these whom He justified, He left eternity to the determination of their own free-will.**There’s no such explanation, only, "these whom He justified, He also glorified" (cf Eph 1:3ff).

 

[guanophore]

Already answered, guanophore; you’re now “re-phrasing” everything, and I’m not interested.

Actually, I did not “re-phrase” anything. I gave some scripture passages that present difficulty for the OSAS position, and asked how you dispense with them. It is not unusual for people to lack interest in information that contradicts what they wish to believe. It is called denial.

You have no understanding of what’s being said in Revelation, with regard to the 7 churches, IMHO, and you’re the one saying that the church at Ephesus will “lose eternal life,” so ISTM you’re the one doing the contradicting.

The Church has already been sanctified and is holy. The Church is the means by which we will all become sanctified. Those who fail to attain eternal life are those who reject the Church.

Are you getting a picture yet?

Let’s look at what you wrote:

He is talking about the ecclesia at Ephesus; He is not talking about His one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God BODY—He may abandon the “church” at Ephesus, but He’s made promises to His body, and, in spite of what you’re being taught, Christ will never forsake those who are His. His will never perish (Jn 10:28), because God glorifies the ones He justifies (Rom 8:30; cf Eph 1:3ff).

The Body is identical with the Church. Jesus said He would remain with His Church to the end of the age. He is the Head of the body. He will not abandon His Body.

“Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.” Eph 5:25-27

God will glorify those who persist until the end. Those who fall from grace will not be glorified.

I am getting the picture that it is difficult, if not impossible, for you to find a place for all these passages the don’t support the OSAS position.

 

[guanophore]

Where, in that passage does Jesus say He will blot out names?

What?! Are you saying that, if it does not appear in the specific passage you are viewing, it is irrelevant?

Ex 32:32-33
32 But now, if thou wilt forgive their sin - and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written." 33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

Rev 3:5
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life;

The names if those who sin against God are blotted out of the book of life. Now, one cannot have one’s name blotted out, until it has been written, so it is clear that the names of the persons written there are saved.

 

[JoeyWarren]

The names if those who sin against God are blotted out of the book of life. Now, one cannot have one’s name blotted out, until it has been written, so it is clear that the names of the persons written there are saved.

Yes very clear. It will be interesting to see how Sandusky responds to this.

 

[sandusky]

What?! Are you saying that, if it does not appear in the specific passage you are viewing, it is irrelevant?

Ex 32:32-33
32 But now, if thou wilt forgive their sin - and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written." 33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

Rev 3:5
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life;

The names if those who sin against God are blotted out of the book of life. Now, one cannot have one’s name blotted out, until it has been written, so it is clear that the names of the persons written there are saved.

There are different “books.” The two you mention are not the same.

 

[guanophore]

"… by pointing to the many stern warnings with respect to the continuance in sinful behavior that is given in the epistles; however, as 1 Cor 11 states, God will end the life of the believer before he sins so badly as to lose salvation, and He does that so the believer “will not be condemned along with the world” (v32).

Please explain this. To me this passage appears to be about taking the Body and Blood of the Lord in an unworthy manner. Contrary to what you seem to be saying here, Paul writes that persons who do such things get sick and die (as a result of their sinful behavior).

Secondly, can you please explain why there are so many stern warnings with respect to continuance in sinful behavior, if they are not necessary?

The whole of scripture cries out to the fact of election and predestination to glory with God’s perseverance being part and parcel of the whole package; I use the end of that verse because of the clarity of it—every single person justified by God has also been glorified by God in eternity—it’s a done deal.

It is finished for those to whom the verse refers, those who have achieved their heavenly reward. For those still on the earth, perseverance is a fundamental caveat to glorification. Whether one takes the Catholic view that they have fallen from grace, or the Calvanist view that they were never “true believers” in the first place, the result is the same. Those who do not persevere do not attain glorification.

Rev 3:10-12
10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth. 11 I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12 He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God,

Rev 3:21-22
21 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

James 1:14-15
4 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.

The wages of sin is death. It does not matter if the sin occurs before a person asked Jesus into their heart, or after. The wages are the same. Sin cannot, and does not enter heaven, and a person living in sin cannot pass the gates of heaven.

Colossians 2:13 is the verse in question here, and the point of what Paul is saying is that Christ’s death on the cross forgave all of the believer’s transgressions, and that Christ’s death canceled ALL debt incurred by the believer. That being so, what can be done to, or by the believer to separate him from the love of God which is in Christ (Rom 8:35ff)?

When, after becoming a partaker of that grace, one turns again from Him, spurning the shed blood.

Romans 8:30

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

He is speaking in the past tense, of those who have already completed the race.

Phil 3:13-16
13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you."

Clearly, Sandusky, you are otherwise minded. God will reveal to you what you need to be mature minded.
​

​

 

[guanophore]

There are different “books.” The two you mention are not the same.

Ok, I’ll bite. How is the book Moses speak of different? Also,is the book of life Jesus speaks about in the gospel different than the book of life in Revelation?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Hebrews 6:4-6: “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.”

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

Please explain this. To me this passage appears to be about taking the Body and Blood of the Lord in an unworthy manner. Contrary to what you seem to be saying here, Paul writes that persons who do such things get sick and die (as a result of their sinful behavior).

Yes, in that case, sickness and death is a discipline of the Lord that shows that His judgment toward the believer is not uncaring; He disciplines with sickness and death so that (a hina, or purpose clause in the Gk), the believer will not be condemned as the world will be condemned. I point this out as God’s acting in behalf of the believer (cf Pro 23:11; Lk 22:31; Acts 5:1-11; 1 Cor 5:5; 1 Tim 1:20).

guanophore:

Secondly, can you please explain why there are so many stern warnings with respect to continuance in sinful behavior, if they are not necessary?

They are necessary; as a Catholic, you assume that all in the church are justified, regenerate believers, in spite of the teaching of scripture to the contrary. So the warnings are used as inducements to those who have not yet committed to Christ, and who are living in an uncommitted way, (cf Heb 6:4-8), and to those who are justified, but not living indicatively (cf 1 Cor 6:9-11).

guanophore:

Those who do not persevere do not attain glorification.

Perseverance is an integral part of election (cf Rom 8:31ff; Eph 1:13-14; 1 Pet 1:3-9). You claim to have been to seminary, and you don’t know this?

guanophore:

The wages of sin is death. It does not matter if the sin occurs before a person asked Jesus into their heart, or after. The wages are the same. Sin cannot, and does not enter heaven, and a person living in sin cannot pass the gates of heaven.

The wages of the believer’s sin was paid by Christ on the Cross (cf 2 Cor 5:21; Col 2:13ff; Rom 3:24; 1 Cor 1:30; Eph 1:7, 14 etc., etc.) Study up on “redemption” and “ransom” (Mt 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20; 7:23, “bought with a price”). You claim to have gone to seminary, and you don’t know this?

guanophore:

When, after becoming a partaker of that grace, one turns again from Him, spurning the shed blood.

Ain’t gonna happen; read Rom 8:30 to the end, again, and again, and again…

guanophore:

He is speaking in the past tense, of those who have already completed the race.

Rom 8:29-30 is speaking in the “eternal tense.” Paul is giving the account of what God has done concerning His salvation in eternity past (cf Eph 1:3ff).

guanophore:

Ok, I’ll bite. How is the book Moses speak of different? Also,is the book of life Jesus speaks about in the gospel different than the book of life in Revelation?

You claim to have been to seminary; you should know this.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Rev 3:4-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Where, in that passage does Jesus say He will blot out names?

Logical common sense says so IMHO ISTM The inverse is probably true.

He who DOES NOT conquers shall NOT be clad thus in white garments, and I will -]not/-] blot his name out of the book of life; I will NOT confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Want it layman’s terms?

Will those that do not conquer be clad in white garments?

Will those that do not conquer still not have their name blotted out?

Will Jesus confess those names before his father whom did not conquer?

a simple yes or no to each question is sufficient. No need to quote this and that. Either Jesus will or he will not based on the original verse.

 

[sandusky]

Logical common sense says so IMHO ISTM The inverse is probably true.

Want it layman’s terms?

Will those that do not conquer be clad in white garments?

Will those that do not conquer still not have their name blotted out?

Will Jesus confess those names before his father whom did not conquer?

a simple yes or no to each question is sufficient. No need to quote this and that. Either Jesus will or he will not based on the original verse.

Go back and read post #179; read it carefully, and follow my instructions; if you miss my point, let me know, and I’ll explain it more fully for you.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Go back and read post #179; read it carefully, and follow my instructions; if you miss my point, let me know, and I’ll explain it more fully for you.

just evade the question as usual. :banghead: It seems with increasing regularity when sandusky can’t answer, he just evades or says look here, and when you do look here,it never really answers the question.

Why is it that Sandusky can never answer with a simple yes or no?

Sandusky just answer the 3 questions with a yes or no. It really is not that hard.

Put up or shut up.

 

[sandusky]

just evade the question as usual. :banghead: It seems with increasing regularity when sandusky can’t answer, he just evades or says look here, and when you do look here,it never really answers the question.

Why is it that Sandusky can never answer with a simple yes or no?

Sandusky just answer the 3 questions with a yes or no. It really is not that hard.

Put up or shut up.

Suit yourself.

 

[Pax]

I asked you many posts ago to demonstrate by scripture that the passage you quoted means without exception that everyone that is justified is also glorified. The verse you quoted does not address that issue and there are no other passages in scripture that clarify that passage in scripture to suggest that it means what you believe it to mean.

Taking into account the entire context of Scripture, what else could it mean, Pax?

This is really quite simple. The verse does not mean what you are trying to claim. We do not justify ourselves and we do not sanctify ourselves, glorify ourselves, or otherwise bring ourselves into glory. This is all accomplished by God’s grace. The verse simply tells us that it is God who justifies and that it is God that glorifies the justified. It does not say that all that are justified will be glorified. It merely says that God is the one that transforms man. Obviously, no one is brought to glory unless they have been justified, but that does not mean that all that have been justified will therefore glorified.

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

This is really quite simple. The verse does not mean what you are trying to claim. We do not justify ourselves and we do not sanctify ourselves, glorify ourselves, or otherwise bring ourselves into glory. This is all accomplished by God’s grace. The verse simply tells us that it is God who justifies and that it is God that glorifies the justified. It does not say that all that are justified will be glorified. It merely says that God is the one that transforms man. Obviously, no one is brought to glory unless they have been justified, but that does not mean that all that have been justified will therefore glorified.

No, Pax.

What’s being described is a series of interdependent, linked events.

Key words: **He also…

 

[steppenwolf1218]

Suit yourself.

I’m a little confused with your viewpoints. Perhaps you could clarify by answering these few simple questions.

1. How can a just and loving God, a benevolent Father, create the entire human race and only choose a select few for salvation?
2. If we are saved regardless of our actions, then what is the purpose of free will?
3. Can someone who is saved commit acts of adultery or go against any of the Commandments and still be considered saved under the OSAS theory?
4. If Christ’s offering on the Cross was not in fact just that, an offering for all to God for our sins so that we may be saved if we so choose it, then why did He waste His breath with all those parables and teachings? You know ones like Love your neighbor…Love one another as I have loved you…When you did for the least of these you did for me…the Beatitudes…??

Salvation, Faith and conversion have one thing in common if they are to be of any worth and that is they must be ongoing. We must continually seek salvation. We must continually strengthen our faith. As we grow in God’s love we reach new levels of conversion. IOW…each day of practice practice practice helps us to grow stronger in the Grace and Love of God. There are no guarantees only the Offering. It is we who must choose to accept the perfect gift of Christ. If we do not then we are lost. And if we accept it but do not live it then we have not accepted it at all. For while there is no “to do” list or “checklist” to guarantee salvation, if we are to accept Christ we must accept all that goes with it and that includes the Cross Jesus told us to carry in order to follow Him as well as the mansion in Heaven that He prepares for us.
Take care
Dennis

 

[Pax]

Obviously not Pax; if, as the parable of the sower and the seed demonstrates, one can believe, and leave the faith, that one could not have been justified by God, who is the only one who justifies (Rom 8:33), and each of those He justifies, He also glorifies.

Let’s examine this in light of what scripture has to say.

Romans 4:24-25
It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Romans 10:10
For man **believes **with his heart and so is justified

Now, in your view these verses teach that we are justified by faith alone. If we believe we are saved. By your definitions you cannot lose your salvation once you have been justified. In other words, once you “believe” you are justified per the two quotes above, and you can never lose your salvation.

Now let’s examine your view, comments, and the parable of the sower. You are the one that says that no one can lose their salvation if they have been justified. Scripture says that we are justified when we “believe.”

So what about the parable of the sower?

Please keep in mind that this is a parable, or word picture, to give us an idea of what happens with people that hear the gospel. Jesus is describing people and how they respond to the word and God’s grace. The description that Jesus gives simply shows, by the use of figures of speech, the different ways that people respond and sometimes fall from faith. The first group is described in terms of the path where the birds immediately come and take the seed away. They are never described as believing. Then there are those that are described in terms of the rocky ground. It says they believe even though the seed is upon rocky ground. They have faith and have, therefore, been justified; but they have no root because the soil is shallow (as they are shallow). The seed that falls among the thorns is described differently. It is not described as lacking root, but is instead lost in another fashion. It is lost by being choked by the cares and pleasures of the world (try understanding that in terms of sin).

In explaining the parable, Jesus even says this about the seed that falls on the rocky ground, “they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.”[per Luke 8:13] This is the language of justification and the loss of salvation. This parable does not support your view…it denies it.

The contradiction to your position is even made more potent by the fact that the parable makes it clear that we are not saved by faith alone. This is what is said in each of the synoptics to confirm this point:

Matthew 13:22-23
“As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

Mark 4:20
“But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”

Luke 8:15
“And as for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, **hold it fast **in an honest and good heart, and bring forth fruit with patience.”

 

[Pax]

No, Pax.

What’s being described is a series of interdependent, linked events.

Key words: ***He ***also…

Not in the way that you wish them to be. We simply won’t agree on this one. Of course that’s happened before.

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

Now, in your view these verses teach that we are justified by faith alone. If we believe we are saved. By your definitions you cannot lose your salvation once you have been justified. In other words, once you “believe” you are justified per the two quotes above, and you can never lose your salvation.

Now let’s examine your view, comments, and the parable of the sower. You are the one that says that no one can lose their salvation if they have been justified. Scripture says that we are justified when we “believe.”

So what about the parable of the sower?

Please keep in mind that this is a parable, or word picture, to give us an idea of what happens with people that hear the gospel. Jesus is describing people and how they respond to the word and God’s grace. The description that Jesus gives simply shows, by the use of figures of speech, the different ways that people respond and sometimes fall from faith. The first group is described in terms of the path where the birds immediately come and take the seed away. They are never described as believing. Then there are those that are described in terms of the rocky ground. It says they believe even though the seed is upon rocky ground. They have faith and have, therefore, been justified; but they have no root because the soil is shallow (as they are shallow). The seed that falls among the thorns is described differently. It is not described as lacking root, but is instead lost in another fashion. It is lost by being choked by the cares and pleasures of the world (try understanding that in terms of sin).

In explaining the parable, Jesus even says this about the seed that falls on the rocky ground, “they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.”[per Luke 8:13] This is the language of justification and the loss of salvation. This parable does not support your view…it denies it.

The contradiction to your position is even made more potent by the fact that the parable makes it clear that we are not saved by faith alone. This is what is said in each of the synoptics to confirm this point:

Matthew 13:22-23
“As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

Mark 4:20
“But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”

Luke 8:15
“And as for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bring forth fruit with patience.”

First of all, I neither hear, nor see anything being taught about justification; rather, this is a parabolic teaching about the effects of the Gospel on the heart prepared beforehand by God to receive the same.

Parabolic teachings generally have one point, and the point here is made at the end of the parable.

The point: the word that is cast by the sower onto good soil, is held fast, and brings forth fruit. The word cast on the other soils do not.

The same happens with the Gospel message as it is cast and communicated to the ends of
the earth.

There is only one “soil” prepared beforehand by God to receive the Gospel, and to embrace it
in faith.

That one is granted true repentance by God to salvation (cf 2 Cor 7:8ff; 2 Tim 2:24-25).

The others are not granted true repentance, but exhibit only worldly sorrow, which leads to death (2 Cor 7:8-10).

 

[Pax]

Sandusky,

When Jesus uses the word “believe,” he knows what it means. Likewise, he knows the implications of using the term and how it relates to salvation. IMHO you never should have selected this parable to support your position. It teaches that which is the exact opposite of your doctrines.