Faith Alone

[Pax]

That one is granted true repentance by God to salvation (cf 2 Cor 7:8ff; 2 Tim 2:24-25).

The others are not granted true repentance, but exhibit only worldly sorrow, which leads to death (2 Cor 7:8-10).

Sorry, but the parable does not say either of these two things in a way that distinguishes the “believers” from one another as you suggest.

People either believe or they do not believe. Some believe for awhile and then fall away. Some persevere and never fall away. Belief is exactly what the term means. If a person “believes” they are justified; at least that’s what scripture clearly says. Likewise, the justified can fall away, and scripture says so in no uncertain terms.

The idea that “believers” aren’t justified is not found in scripture.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

It appears as if we reached the perverbial “backed into a corner”.

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

Sandusky,

When Jesus uses the word “believe,” he knows what it means. Likewise, he knows the implications of using the term and how it relates to salvation. IMHO you never should have selected this parable to support your position. It teaches that which is the exact opposite of your doctrines.

Pax, IYO, nothing in scripture supports my position, why should this be any different?

Pax:

Sorry, but the parable does not say either of these two things in a way that distinguishes the “believers” from one another as you suggest.

Of course it does, Pax; you’re unable to see it. The Lord identifies the seed as the Word, from there, the rest falls into place; it’s not been revealed to you yet, IMO.

Pax:

People either believe or they do not believe. Some believe for awhile and then fall away. Some persevere and never fall away. Belief is exactly what the term means. If a person “believes” they are justified; at least that’s what scripture clearly says. Likewise, the justified can fall away, and scripture says so in no uncertain terms.

The idea that “believers” aren’t justified is not found in scripture.

You need to prove those points Pax, and you can’t.**Romans 8:30

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.Where is the verse which states:and there is another group whom He predestined and also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; but these whom He justified, He left eternity to the determination of their own free-will.**Or anything even remotely similar to that, Pax?

I’ve spent the time looking for support for your position, and it’s just not there.

 

[sandusky]

I’m a little confused with your viewpoints. Perhaps you could clarify by answering these few simple questions.

Answering your post would further derail this thread, and, I’m not interested in participating in a thread pertaining to your questions as I’ve done it before, and the free-for-all atmosphere doesn’t work for me.

If you’re really interested, PM me, and I will PM an answer to your post.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Rom Chap 8 Ver. 30. And whom he predestinated, them he also called

to the true faith and to his service, without any deserts in them, nay, when all mankind were guilty of eternal death, by original sin. — And whom he called, them he also justified, by faith, by hope, by a love of him, and a true penance. — And whom he justified, them he also glorified. That is, hath decreed to glory. Yet not all who have been justified, but only his elect, who are under his special protection, and to whom he grants a perseverance in his grace to the end: so that the call to faith, their sanctification, their final perseverance, and glorification in heaven, are the effects of their free election and predestination. (Witham)

 

[ChrisWRIT]

Answering your post would further derail this thread, and, I’m not interested in participating in a thread pertaining to your questions as I’ve done it before, and the free-for-all atmosphere doesn’t work for me.

Repetition doesn’t seem to be a problem for you sandusky, although being challenged on your scripture-twisting does seem to be.

The erroneous OSAS claim begs the question when it is used to justify the claim that we are “saved by faith alone”, as each presupposes the other. The “no true Christian” argument is simply a variation on OSAS.

So how is the subject a derailment?

The fact that a person will come to God does not of itself mean he will stay with God. In the case of predestination to final salvation (i.e. - “glory”), then a predestined person will stay with God, but this does not mean the predestined are the only ones who experience initial salvation.

This has been Biblically shown over & over to you, but your only response is to repeat the mantra of “You don’t understand.”

You seem to be stuck repeating the common Calvinist error of taking Romans 8:35-39 out of context with Romans 11:20-24, where Paul compares spiritual Israel to an olive tree & states that since certain branches of spiritual Israel were broken off because of unbelief in Christ (v. 20), Christians will not be spared if they fall into unbelief (v. 21), but will be cut off (v. 22).

This was pointed out earlier, to which you (again) repeated the mantra - “you misunderstand this verse”, which was then followed by redirection to another passage, instead of actually addressing what you had been given.

(Perhaps you could save yourself some typing if you just changed your sig to say: “You Catholics just don’t understand the Bible”. Just a thought. )

You’ve been given plenty of resources to read to find out WHY your interpretations are not consistent.

Here is one more, which explains the Catholic view of the topics addressed by TULIP. It is not a denial, but a clarification of how they can be reconciled with the Bible & with the Church Fathers.

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

If you don’t want to look at that, I know that many Calvinists like St. Augustine; perhaps you would be interested in his writings. newadvent.org/fathers/

(Warning: These are whole documents, not the redacted versions that only include the parts of Augustine’s writings that seem to support Calvinism.)

Regards,

Chris

 

[sandusky]

ChrisWRIT:

Repetition doesn’t seem to be a problem for you sandusky, although being challenged on your scripture-twisting does seem to be.

I’ve been thinking the same about you.

ChrisWRIT:

The fact that a person will come to God does not of itself mean he will stay with God. In the case of predestination to final salvation (i.e. - “glory”), then a predestined person will stay with God, but this does not mean the predestined are the only ones who experience initial salvation.

You’ve cannot substantiate this elusive group who, it’s alleged, experience “initial salvation” and lose it.**Romans 9:22-23

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory**There are only two groups Chris, and God only justifies the members of one of those groups.

ChrisWRIT:

This has been Biblically shown over & over to you, but your only response is to repeat the mantra of “You don’t understand.”

That’s an inconsistent argument—your “over & over” showing is nothing more than your mantra.

ChrisWRIT:

You seem to be stuck repeating the common Calvinist error of taking Romans 8:35-39 out of context with Romans 11:20-24, where Paul compares spiritual Israel to an olive tree & states that since certain branches of spiritual Israel were broken off because of unbelief in Christ (v. 20), Christians will not be spared if they fall into unbelief (v. 21), but will be cut off (v. 22).

The only ones who are justified are the elect, and the elect will never perish; therefore, the simplest explanation is that you misunderstand predestination, justification, and Romans 11.

ChrisWRIT:

You’ve been given plenty of resources to read to find out WHY your interpretations are not consistent.

Here is one more, which explains the Catholic view of the topics addressed by TULIP. It is not a denial, but a clarification of how they can be reconciled with the Bible & with the Church Fathers.

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

I’ve read them at one time, or another, Chris. You assume that I haven’t read them because, ISTM, your expectation is that upon reading them I will long to be Catholic.

I’ve read “tiptoe through the tulip” many times; what Catholics miss is that after Akin has redefined tulip, it’s no longer tulip, so, IMO, it’s a worthless article not only for me, but for you as well because it’s not the reformed tulip your told that you agree with, but another tulip.

ChrisWRIT:

If you don’t want to look at that, I know that many Calvinists like St. Augustine; perhaps you would be interested in his writings. newadvent.org/fathers/

(Warning: These are whole documents, not the redacted versions that only include the parts of Augustine’s writings that seem to support Calvinism.)

I have on one my bookshelves the hard-bound, 38 volume NPNF series, they are whole documents, and not redacted versions; I also have access to them on the web.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Ver. 22-23. And if God, &c. He now gives the reason why God might, without any injustice, have mercy on some, and not on others; grant particular graces and favours to his elect, and not equally to all; because all mankind was become liable to damnation by original sin: the clay that al are made of, is a sinful clay; and as St. Augustine says, was become a lump and mass of damnation. Every one had sinned in Adam. Now, if out of this sinful lump and multitude God, to shew the richness of his glory, and superabundant mercy, hath chosen some as vessels of election, whom he hath decreed to save, and by special graces and favours to make partakers of his heavenly kingdom; and to shew his justice and hatred of in, hath left others as vessels of his wrath and justice, to be lost in their sins, which for a time he bears patiently with, when they deserved present punishment, who can say that he hat done unjustly? (Witham)er. 22-23. And if God, &c. He now gives the reason why God might, without any injustice, have mercy on some, and not on others; grant particular graces and favours to his elect, and not equally to all; because all mankind was become liable to damnation by original sin: the clay that al are made of, is a sinful clay; and as St. Augustine says, was become a lump and mass of damnation. Every one had sinned in Adam. Now, if out of this sinful lump and multitude God, to shew the richness of his glory, and superabundant mercy, hath chosen some as vessels of election, whom he hath decreed to save, and by special graces and favours to make partakers of his heavenly kingdom; and to shew his justice and hatred of in, hath left others as vessels of his wrath and justice, to be lost in their sins, which for a time he bears patiently with, when they deserved present punishment, who can say that he hat done unjustly? (Witham)

 

[Pax]

People either believe or they do not believe. Some believe for awhile and then fall away. Some persevere and never fall away. Belief is exactly what the term means. If a person “believes” they are justified; at least that’s what scripture clearly says. Likewise, the justified can fall away, and scripture says so in no uncertain terms.

The idea that “believers” aren’t justified is not found in scripture.

You need to prove those points Pax, and you can’t.

So I have to prove that people either believe or that they do not believe? Well, let’s see what scripture says.

A few examples of believers:

"And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”[Matthew 14:33]

"When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe, and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”{Matthew 27:54]

“His disciples believed in him”[Jn 2:11]

"Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” [Jn 6:68-69]

A few examples of unbelievers:

“For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe”[Jn 6:64]

In reference to the crowd…“Though he had done so many signs before them, yet they did not believe in him;”[Jn 12:37]

“They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith.”[Rom 1:20]

Examples of those that believe but fall away or into condemnation:

"Now the company of **those who believed **were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common…BUT A man named Ananias with his wife Sapphira sold a piece of property, and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, **why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit **and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.[Acts4:32-37…Acts 5:1-11]

“Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience for an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen. This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.”[1 Tim 1:16-20]

I already quoted the passages of scripture that show that those that believe/have faith are justifified in a prior post so I won’t repeat myself.

So there is only one point left for me to support. I have already shown that scripture says that the justified can fall away, but the evidence for this particular point is worth repeating:

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another.”[Matt 24:9-10]

“they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.”[Luke 8:13]

“For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, **provided you continue **in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”[Rom 11:21-22]

“FOR FREEDOM Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.”[Gal 5:1-4]

I think I just covered all the points you were concerned about, but if you need more scripture I can provide it.

 

[Pax]

Pax, IYO, nothing in scripture supports my position, why should this be any different?

And your opinion about my position is somehow different?

 

[Pax]

Sandusky,

I failed to cover one point. I said:

The idea that “believers” aren’t justified is not found in scripture.

You stated that I needed to prove this point.

Well, I checked and I couldn’t find one verse that denied this.

Perhaps you could help me.

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky,

I failed to cover one point. I said:

You stated that I needed to prove this point.

Well, I checked and I couldn’t find one verse that denied this.

Perhaps you could help me.

OK. Rom 8:30 denies that.

You state from the example of Lk 8 that the 3 types of “believers” who lost their faith were justified.

That can’t be true because those God justifies, He also glorifies; therefore, if they fall away forever, they could not have been justified.

 

[Pax]

Right…and believers can’t apostatize either. This in spite of the fact that scripture says otherwise.

 

[sodak]

This is a brilliant example of the mindset of a Catholic. Always seeking to point someone to a mere man instead of Christ.

This is a Catholic forum. If you find our beliefs offensive, feel free to leave.

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

Right…and believers can’t apostatize either. This in spite of the fact that scripture says otherwise.

Where does the scripture say that believers can apostatize?

I’m keeping this simple; the predestined, the elect, the justified, cannot lose their salvation, Pax.

If they can, then among other problems, Christ has failed to do the will of the Father
(cf Jn 6:37-40).

He also glorifies…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where does the scripture say that believers can apostatize?

I’m keeping this simple; the predestined, the elect, the justified, cannot lose their salvation, Pax.

If they can, then among other problems, Christ has failed to do the will of the Father
(cf Jn 6:37-40).

He also glorifies…

I’ll keep this simple: the predestined, the elect, the justified have no idea whether they are in that group or not.

They might think that they are saved, but they cannot see the future and have no idea whether they will persevere to the very end or not. They might be doing okay right now, but they could fall away tomorrow or next year or twenty years from now.

So, although you might THINK that you have eternal security, the truth, Sandusky, is that you have no idea whether you are “in” or not.

As for Christ’s doing the will of the Father, have you not read:

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Jesus wants to save us, but we have to desire it, also. If we reject Him, has Jesus failed?

Even you might reject him in your last days, and you won’t know that you’re not one of the “elect” until it’s too late.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[sandusky]

Randy Carson:

I’ll keep this simple: the predestined, the elect, the justified have no idea whether they are in that group or not.

They might think that they are saved, but they cannot see the future and have no idea whether they will persevere to the very end or not. They might be doing okay right now, but they could fall away tomorrow or next year or twenty years from now.

So, although you might THINK that you have eternal security, the truth, Sandusky, is that you have no idea whether you are “in” or not.

I’ll keep this very simple for you, Randy.

The doctrine of eternal security is not concerned with whether or not one can know he is among the elect, but states simply that the elect cannot lose salvation.

Hope this helps :tiphat:
Randy Carson:

As for Christ’s doing the will of the Father, have you not read:

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Jesus wants to save us, but we have to desire it, also. If we reject Him, has Jesus failed?

Even you might reject him in your last days, and you won’t know that you’re not one of the “elect” until it’s too late.

You can’t understand.

The one God justifies, He also glorifies.

Hope this helps :tiphat:

 

[JoeyWarren]

I’ll keep this very simple for you, Randy.
The doctrine of eternal security is not concerned with whether or not one can know he is among the elect, but states simply that the elect cannot lose salvation.
Hope this helps :tiphat:
You can’t understand.
The one God justifies, He also glorifies.
Hope this helps :tiphat:

What you don’t understand that those that are justified are only known to God. You may claim you are justified because you claim to have faith, but that is all it is, just a CLAIM. A claim is nothing but a boast. By understanding scripture in it’s entire context, God does not justifiy barren faith, God does not justify dead faith. The Book of James corrects any misinterpretation of what Paul wrote. Paul, in his writings exhibits the still present taint of Phariseeism. James provides the clarification on Justification, Salvation, Faith, and Glorification.

Protestants are so hung up on Romans, that they can’t recognize that the Book of James is in the Bible at all. James is short and sweet and to the point. Maybe that is why James work comes immediately after all the writings of Paul. Paul has to be clarified, because too much of his stuff can be twisted and distorted as stated by Peter.

There is a Divine Reasoning to the positioning of the Books of the New Testament.

 

[guanophore]

They are necessary; as a Catholic, you assume that all in the church are justified, regenerate believers, in spite of the teaching of scripture to the contrary. So the warnings are used as inducements to those who have not yet committed to Christ, and who are living in an uncommitted way, (cf Heb 6:4-8), and to those who are justified, but not living indicatively (cf 1 Cor 6:9-11).

The assumption you ascribe to me is not accurate, either of myself, or of the Teaching of the Church. However, I want to know why the passages are there from an OSAS point of view, not from your erroneous perception of the Catholic view. If a person is OSAS, why are all these warnings needed in scripture? Why so many statements that we can be denied?

2 Tim 2:10-13
I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also** may **obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory. 11 The saying is sure:

If we have died with him, we shall also live with him;
12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful -

for he cannot deny himself.

Why these conditional statements?

Perseverance is an integral part of election (cf Rom 8:31ff; Eph 1:13-14; 1 Pet 1:3-9). You claim to have been to seminary, and you don’t know this?

Certainly, I know what is taught from the OSAS point of view! I have since learned that this is not the Apostolic Teaching, but an innovation of men that lived 1500 years after the divine deposit of faith was once and for all committed to the saints.

Heb 12:15-17
See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; 16 that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

It is possible to sell one’s birthright.

The wages of the believer’s sin was paid by Christ on the Cross (cf 2 Cor 5:21; Col 2:13ff; Rom 3:24; 1 Cor 1:30; Eph 1:7, 14 etc., etc.) Study up on “redemption” and “ransom” (Mt 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20; 7:23, “bought with a price”). You claim to have gone to seminary, and you don’t know this?

Yes, my studies on redenption and ransom have been life changing for me. I did my master’s thesis on seals in scripture. I know that the wages of sin are death, and that this does not change whether a person has prayed “the sinners prayer” or not. For example, this passage, written to believers:

Are you saying that you refuse to allow God to reveal to you a more mature attitude in the faith? It is your right, of course, just surprising to hear you say. You have free will, and can change the tenses and meanings of scripture to suit yourself as much as you wish. You can, like Luther, add words to the text, or extract books from the canon that was revealed to the Church by the HS. God has created you in His likeness and image. You have the freedom to spurn Him just as Adam and Eve.

[/QUOTE]

 

[JoeyWarren]

Forget it Guano, he can’t get past Romans.

His last resort is to spam Romans 8:30.