Faith Alone

[guanophore]

Forget it Guano, he can’t get past Romans.

His last resort is to spam Romans 8:30.

Yes, you are right, of course. From the beginning, I knew that this would happen. I post primarily for the lurkers, so that they are not also similarly led astray.

 

[sandusky]

JoeyWarren:

What you don’t understand that those that are justified are only known to God.

And yet, Christ says that “you’ll know them by their fruit.” Your Tradition keeps you from the fullness of the faith, IMHO.

JoeyWarren:

You may claim you are justified because you claim to have faith, but that is all it is, just a CLAIM. A claim is nothing but a boast.

**1 Corinthians 1:30-31

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”**Tradition keeps you from the fullness of the faith, IMHO.

JoeyWarren:

By understanding scripture in it’s entire context, God does not justifiy barren faith, God does not justify dead faith.

God does not justify faith; God justifies people!—unrighteous, and ungodly people:**Romans 4:5

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 5:6

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.**Therefore, once the ungodly person has been justified, he has no further need for “continuing justification,” rather, he has peace with God forever (Rom 5:1); what he needs post-justification is sanctification, which is an ongoing growth in righteousness, and holiness until the cessation of temporal life.

JoeyWarren:

Protestants are so hung up on Romans, that they can’t recognize that the Book of James is in the Bible at all. James is short and sweet and to the point. Maybe that is why James work comes immediately after all the writings of Paul. Paul has to be clarified, because too much of his stuff can be twisted and distorted as stated by Peter.

Speaking only for the Reformed; they are the only ones on the face of the planet who consider the entirety of scripture in their doctrines.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

The assumption you ascribe to me is not accurate, either of myself, or of the Teaching of the Church. However, I want to know why the passages are there from an OSAS point of view, not from your erroneous perception of the Catholic view. If a person is OSAS, why are all these warnings needed in scripture? Why so many statements that we can be denied?

My answer’s in my statement that you posted; didn’t you read it before posting it?

guanophore:

Are you saying that you refuse to allow God to reveal to you a more mature attitude in the faith? It is your right, of course, just surprising to hear you say. You have free will, and can change the tenses and meanings of scripture to suit yourself as much as you wish. You can, like Luther, add words to the text, or extract books from the canon that was revealed to the Church by the HS. God has created you in His likeness and image. You have the freedom to spurn Him just as Adam and Eve.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

This must be the only sort of conversation that you understand…quote=sandusky;3684735]And yet, Christ says that “you’ll know them by their fruit.” Your Tradition keeps you from the fullness of the faith, IMHO. I can’t think of a more telling biblical phase to describe how your attitude is viewed by all christians here.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Tradition keeps you from the fullness of the faith, IMHO. I stand corrected. There is a better biblical phase and your own personal opinion which describes how your attitude is viewed by all christians here.

God does not justify faith proving of course that faith alone is not scriptural; God justifies people!—unrighteous, and ungodly people:Romans 4:5

**But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, **
Romans 5:6

**For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.**Therefore, once the ungodly person has been justified, he has no further need for “continuing justification,” rather, he has peace with God forever (Rom 5:1); what he needs. Why does anyone “need” anything futher if justification is obtained, this leads the reader to ask the same question. post-justification is sanctification, which is an ongoing growth in righteousness, and holiness until the cessation of temporal life.

Speaking only for the Reformed, does anyone care who you speak for, it is after all only your personal opinion. You don’t speak for the Reformed since only a small faction of them agree with you; they are the only ones on the face of the planet who consider the entirety of scripture in their doctrines. You forgot to add the phase IMHO, because that is all that it is

 

[JoeyWarren]

**

Sanduskey Posted:

**1 Corinthians 1:30-31

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”**
Interesting translation you have there.

I prefer the KJV and the DR

That, as it is written: He that** glorieth, may glory** in the Lord.

That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

BBE So that, as it is said in the holy Writings, Whoever has a desire for glory, let his glory be in the Lord.

YLT that, according as it hath been written, `He who is glorying – in the Lord let him glory.’

English Translations being just that Translations, fallible, full of error. Some have more errors than others.

Heck even the Spanish Version : Para que, como está escrito: El que se gloría, gloríese en el Señor.**

 

[sandusky]

** Interesting translation you have there. **

I prefer the KJV and the DR

That, as it is written: He that** glorieth, may glory** in the Lord.

That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

BBE So that, as it is said in the holy Writings, Whoever has a desire for glory, let his glory be in the Lord.

YLT that, according as it hath been written, `He who is glorying – in the Lord let him glory.’

English Translations being just that Translations, fallible, full of error. Some have more errors than others.

Heck even the Spanish Version : Para que, como está escrito: El que se gloría, gloríese en el Señor.

You have nothing of any value to say, IMHO, and so, IMHO, you’re reduced to quibbling.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Sandusky said: And yet, Christ says that “you’ll know them by their fruit.” Your Tradition keeps you from the fullness of the faith, IMHO.

He’s talking about False Prophets there in verse 15.

15"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes 20 So by their fruits you will know them

Christian disciples who claimed to speak in the name of God are called prophets (Matthew 7:15) in Matthew 10:41; Matthew 23:34. They were presumably an important group within the church of Matthew. As in the case of the Old Testament prophets, there were both true and false ones, and for Matthew the difference could be recognized by the quality of their deeds, the fruits (Matthew 7:16). The mention of fruits leads to the comparison with trees, some producing good fruit, others bad.

 

[sandusky]

He’s talking about False Prophets there in verse 15.

15"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes 20 So by their fruits you will know them

Read the entire passage, Joey; that’s the reason for the short quote, so that you’ll recall the whole passage.**v17

*So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.***The tree is known by the fruit that it bears.

 

[JoeyWarren]

The Introduction

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

The How To

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

The How To explained

Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The How To reiterated for emphasis.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

It pertains only to False Prophets.

 

[JoeyWarren]

You have nothing of any value to say, IMHO, and so, IMHO, you’re reduced to quibbling.

Likewise.

 

[sandusky]

The Introduction

The How To

The How To explained

The How To reiterated for emphasis.

It pertains only to False Prophets.

Again, you quibble.

Every good tree bears good fruit, and the bad bears bad fruit. (v 17)

 

[guanophore]

My answer’s in my statement that you posted; didn’t you read it before posting it?

Yes. You explained why you thought Catholics needed the verses. You did not explain what use they have to OSAS. If all the world had what you consider the “correct” interpretation of scripture, and as such, there were no more Catholics, then why would those verses need to be in scripture?

 

[sandusky]

Yes. You explained why you thought Catholics needed the verses. You did not explain what use they have to OSAS. If all the world had what you consider the “correct” interpretation of scripture, and as such, there were no more Catholics, then why would those verses need to be in scripture?

My answer is in the post, guanophore; read it again…slowly.

 

[guanophore]

My answer is in the post, guanophore; read it again…slowly.

OK

They are necessary; as a Catholic, you assume that all in the church are justified, regenerate believers, in spite of the teaching of scripture to the contrary. So the warnings are used as inducements to those who have not yet committed to Christ, and who are living in an uncommitted way, (cf Heb 6:4-8), and to those who are justified, but not living indicatively (cf 1 Cor 6:9-11).

• You accuse me of an assumption that is not accurate
• You accuse Catholics of being “unscriptural”
• In spite of the passages being written to believers, you say they are written to those who are not.

So, my question remains, given that these passages /warnings are written to BELIEVERS, how do you come up with the idea that they are not needed for those believers?

Or, do you take these warnings out of context, and thereby assume that they apply to “unbelievers in the congregation”, just like you change the tenses of the verbs in scripture to fit your innovative Reformed theology?

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

So, my question remains, given that these passages /warnings are written to BELIEVERS, how do you come up with the idea that they are not needed for those believers?

Or, do you take these warnings out of context, and thereby assume that they apply to "unbelievers in the congregation…"

I can tell that you didn’t read the post slowly, as I requested that you do, because if you had, you would have noted that I said the warnings were for both uncommitted, and committed believers.

I get my understanding of that by applying the principles stated by Paul, and, by your own first Pope, so-called, the Lord’s apostle Peter, who says:**2 Peter 1:12-13

Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.

I consider it right…to stir you up by way of reminder**Of what is Peter reminding them?

That, they have a like faith as the apostle have.

That, God, by His divine power, has granted them that faith, and He has granted them everything pertaining to life and godliness through the true knowledge of Him who called them to His glory and excellence.

That, they need to, by applying their diligence, use all of the granted gifts listed through v8.

So that, they would not through their own laxity, become blind, or short-sighted, and stumble because they have forgotten who they are in Christ.

Which does not mean they can lose their salvation because God’s salvation is not about perfection, but about mercy, and grace.

God’s truths need to be repeated often, because they can be so easily forgotten (2 Thess 2:5; Jude 5).

And, as Paul says concerning the scripture, they are profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.

According to Peter, the one who does not remind others of those things is "negligent," which the writers of Sacred Writ were not.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Every good tree bears good fruit, and the bad bears bad fruit. (v 17)

Sandusky, you must of the bad tree variety. I look at you and I don’t see any good fruit. But I will give the benefit of a doubt. You might be one those trees that bear no fruit at all. being neither good nor bad. You simply exist.

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky, you must of the bad tree variety. I look at you and I don’t see any good fruit. But I will give the benefit of a doubt. You might be one those trees that bear no fruit at all. being neither good nor bad. You simply exist.

Thank you, Peter.

You bless me greatly in your revilement of me, and you fulfill the Lord’s prophetic Word
in so doing.

 

[steppenwolf1218]

Answering your post would further derail this thread, and, I’m not interested in participating in a thread pertaining to your questions as I’ve done it before, and the free-for-all atmosphere doesn’t work for me.

If you’re really interested, PM me, and I will PM an answer to your post.

I am interested and it won’t derail the thread. These are crucial questions in examining something like the OSAS theory. It just simply means that you can’t or won’t answer them because the only thing they derail is the OSAS theory.

If God predestined certain individuals for salvation then what about the rest? Were they created as a joke or an afterthought? The Father I know, love and speak with wouldn’t do that. The Son who is my light and beacon wouldn’t lead me somewhere He didn’t intend to take me just so long as it is what I choose also. The Spirit that fills my heart, comforts me and is my constant companion wouldn’t accompany me if it was all a cruel trick.

Salvation is for those who choose to live it. It is not for the select few who were predetermined. To think otherwise would negate the Cross. What would be the reason for Jesus to go through what He did if the saved were already determined?

No salvation is for those who CHOOSE IT, LIVE IT and REALIZE that they can not attain it without JESUS. There are no guarantees to Jesus’ Salvation other then that it is there for those who choose it and with that choose to live it.

If there are any of us who are predestined or justified then it is all of us just so long as we choose do God’s will. To suggest otherwise is to usurp the authority and will of God. There is a term that describes such an action. Do you know what that term is?

 

[sandusky]

steppenwolf1218:

I am interested and it won’t derail the thread. These are crucial questions in examining something like the OSAS theory. **It just simply means that you can’t or won’t answer them because the only thing they derail is the OSAS theory.**I’ve put an offer on the table for you, and that offer is the only one you get.

You can take me up on the offer, or, I must conclude (borrowing your thinking), that you are afraid to interact with me, one on one, or, you’re really not that interested.

I’m not interested in a free-for-all while trying to answer your questions.

If there are any of us who are predestined or justified then it is all of us

just so long as we choose do God’s will.Your statement puts you at odds with your own church’s teachings regarding predestination.

Here are
Two resources for you to get up to speed on that.

 

[guanophore]

I get my understanding of that by applying the principles stated by Paul, and, by your own first Pope, so-called, the Lord’s apostle Peter, who says:2 Peter 1:12-13

It is my fervent hope and prayer that you will continue to be enlighted by the teachings of the successors of Peter, until you attain maturity in faith.
sandusky;3687073:

Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things,

even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.

I consider it right…to stir you up by way of reminderOf what is Peter reminding them?

That, they have a like faith as the apostle have.

That, God, by His divine power, has granted them that faith, and He has granted them everything pertaining to life and godliness through the true knowledge of Him who called them to His glory and excellence.

That, they need to, by applying their diligence, use all of the granted gifts listed through v8.

So that, they would not through their own laxity, become blind, or short-sighted, and stumble because they have forgotten who they are in Christ.

Which does not mean they can lose their salvation because God’s salvation is not about perfection, but about mercy, and grace.

Sounds very Catholic, that part about the need to apply theri diligence.

Salvation is indeed about perfection. Through God’s grace and mercy, He desires to bring about that in us which He has already declared. That we become, in actuality righteous, as well as having the legal charges against us dismissed.

God’s truths need to be repeated often, because they can be so easily forgotten (2 Thess 2:5; Jude 5).

And, as Paul says concerning the scripture, they are profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.

According to Peter, the one who does not remind others of those things is "negligent," which the writers of Sacred Writ were not.

What is a mystery to me is that, if a person is OSAS, what is the point of reminder? God will bring that person to completion, so why stress over the little details like holiness?