Faith can fail (Lk 8); the question is whether or not the one whose faith failed was justified.
Well, since one cannot BE justified without faith in Christ (belief in the heart) and the confession that Christ is Lord, then it stands to reason they are justified.
Three fourths of the seeds sprouted, which means the gospel was recieved into the heart and met with saving faith, which produced the plant.
Scripture defines faith as a gift.
Indeed, all that we are, and all that we will ever be is from the Lord. However, this gift, as many others, is placed under our control. The individual decides in whom one will put his faith, and to be saved, one must place His faith in the Saviour. If one chooses to place his faith elsewhere, he misuses the gift, and it does not mix with the grace that is poured out unto salvation.
You need to prove that the Catholic’s favorite buzz words, fall, stumble, shipwreck, entanglement with the world, etc., mean a loss of salvation; I believe that all of you unconsciously jump to that conclusion because of your commitment to libertarian free will theology.
Please do not be misled into the notion that these words are “favorite Catholic buzz words”. Certainly they are common on threads such as this, because of the nature of the discussion. However, for the Catholic, the favorite words are those of the liturgy, and I can assure you that these are not found there! They may be included in a scripture reading as part of liturgy, but the prayers of faith are what is the favorite of Catholics.
You probably believe what you do about libertarian free will theology because you are a Westerner. Most Westerners have no experience with Eastern Theology, and the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. Not having been exposed to Latin philosophy, European politics, and modernism, the faith of the Church has not been influenced by any of these Western Phenomenon. To prove your assertion, you would have to apply this to the Oriental Orthodox, Syrian, Coptic, and other Catholic Churches that teach what I have been promoting here about the Catholic faith.
Again, the works theology comes through (though you’ll continue to deny that yours is a works theology); your beliefs have nothing to do with what God has done, and everything to do with you must do.
I understand it seem that way to you. I think this is because of the separation that was born in the Reformation. However, Catholics do not distinguish the grace that justifies from the grace through which we work out our salvation with fear an trembling. There is no way to “work out salvation” apart from grace. Human beings cannot, of themselves, “merit” salvation. This is the Apostolic teaching.
You make my point here, guanophore—you presume that fall from grace, or stumble, as the passage states, means a loss of salvation.
Indeed, I do not, for I do not consider salvation as a one time event that has occurred in the past, as you do. I see salvation as a river, into which one enters at baptism, and in which one can either choose to stay until the end, or from which one may depart. But I do not consider that salvation has been yet attained in this life, so there fore, it cannot be “lost” in this life either. A person cannot “lose” what one has not yet inherited.
Yes it does, read the sower and the seed again.
I suppose you consider the seeds that sprouted do not represent what you have invented (“true belief”). Scripture makes no distinction of this kind with regard to faith.
Code:
As one reads Peter’s description of the false teachers, the word believer does not come to mind, but unregenerate, unjustified, reprobate, children of wrath (Eph 2:3). :)
I quite agree. However, he is writing to believers, and he is talking about persons of faith, who apostasized. Their fate is worse than if they had never known the truth. They have spruned the son of God afresh.
They are the ones of whom Paul says to the Corinthians, “such were some of you,” but you were washed by the blood of Christ; obviously, the false teachers Peter is describing were not washed.
Yes, There are some who were not washed, but the overall point that Paul is trying to make in that passage is that the Corinthians should not go back to living the lifestyle they did before they were washed.
Code:
You and yours may be a dogs in the vomit, and sows in the mire, but I’m not; neither is any other justified, regenerate believer; my old nature is dead, old things have passed away, and new things have come (2 Cor 5:17); I’m being transformed daily into the image of the Lord (2 Cor 3:18).
Well, praise God for your sanctification!
Code:
Those false teachers Peter was talking about, their old man was alive and kicking because they had never been regenerated by the Spirit, and justified by God; that's why they went back to what they truly were—***not justified!***
It certainly seems convenient to make such a supposition about them, but the Apostles teach us that a man can be justified, then throw away his birthright.
Once again, salvation is not about perfection, but mercy and grace. And the grace of God is sufficient to save one apart from anything else.
It is both, I would say, since nothing imperfect can enter heaven.
Code:
Again, you prove my earlier point by your presumption that the verse above translates into, ***”he lost his salvation.”***
On the contrary, my presumption is that salvation has not yet been attained. So long as we are in this world, we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling. When arrogance and presumption take the place of awe and faith in God, one is no longer able to work out salvation. One has lost the way of truth.
