Faith Alone

[Techno2000]

James posted this on the other thread (about Mary).

To me he here illustrates the difficulty of the RC view of justification. Constant failings that lead us to damnation until penance. All my Evangelical eyes read is working to attain the attainable.

God simply calls us to be too holy. It is impossible. Being cloaked in Christ’s righteousness seems to be our (well at least my) only chance.

This is probably my biggest theological problem with the RCC. Try as I might, I do not believe any of me (my works, nature, efforts, etc…) can stand before God and His righteous throne on judgement day. I plan to hide behind Christ and his work.

Thanks,
Tim

In the Catholic Church we have a short cut to Heaven… The Virgin Mary.

 

[guanophore]

Faith requires that you DO something, doesn’t it?

No, it requires you to believe something.

News flash, moondweller. Believing is a work.

Are you suggesting that Law observance justified men before God? Suggested reading: Heb. 10:1-14.

Faith is what justifies. Observance of the Law is “obedience of faith”, and justifies one who observes in faith.

Prov 11:5-6
“The righteousness of the blameless keeps his way straight,
but the wicked falls by his own wickedness.
6 The righteousness of the upright delivers them…”

" In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." Luke 1:5-6

He was not advocating justification by works at all,  but by example he was pointing out Abraham's faith.  Jump down to verse 22:"You see that FAITH was working with his works, and as a result of works, FAITH was perfected" (not his justification).His willingness to offer up Issac demonstrated how his faith had matured.  The same faith by which God justified him some 20 years earlier (Gen. 15:6).  In context James wasn't presenting a didactic teaching on justification, but by example of Abraham's maturity of faith in what God had promised, he appealed to his Jewish brethren in Christ to demonstrate, in action, that same faith by which God had also previously justified them: "*Show me your faith..*"

We are in agreement on this point. This is precisely why Catholics do not separate the faith that justifies from the faith that sanctifies. Catholics believe that we are saved by faith that works. If faith does not express itself in obedience to God, then it is not saving faith at all.

No.  This verse must be understood in the context James intended it.  He was not advocating justification by works at all,  but by example he was pointing out Abraham's faith.  Jump down to verse 22:"You see that FAITH was working with his works, and as a result of works, FAITH was perfected" (not his justification).His willingness to offer up Issac demonstrated how his faith had matured.  The same faith by which God justified him some 20 years earlier (Gen. 15:6).  In context James wasn't presenting a didactic teaching on justification, but by example of Abraham's maturity of faith in what God had promised, he appealed to his Jewish brethren in Christ to demonstrate, in action, that same faith by which God had also previously justified them: "*Show me your faith..*"

moondweller;3726387:

I have found it ironic indeed, even paradoxical, that the Roman CC invariably appeals to the Book of James rather than the Book of ROMANS for its dogmatic stance on justification. Paul made his teachings on that doctrine abundantly clear to the church at Rome - yet the Roman CC now looks, instead, to James.

You have just had a skewed exposure to the Catholic faith is all. The Catholic Church wrote the books of Romans and James, under the inspiration of the HS, protected, preserved, and promulgated those texts. All of the NT reflects Catholic teaching, because the Catholic Teaching is the source of all of it.

I think that it seems like an over emphasis to you because James is most often used to refute the imbalances of Reformed teaching. The Catholic Church embraces the whole of Apostolic Teaching, which includes Paul, Peter, and the remainder of the writings. Catholics do not form doctrine by cherry picking certain verses, but look at all of them together as a whole.

The separating practice is a fruit of protestantism, which is born of separation, and grows separation by virtue of having a separatist root.

 

[sandusky]

Randy Carson:

Therefore, for those who propose that Paul taught justification by faith alone, a very haunting question remains: Why didn’t Paul use the specific phrase “faith alone” anywhere in his New Testament writings?

No specific phrase exists saying ***”Mary is a forever sinless virgin whose body will be assumed into heaven,” ***and yet you believe those things are true, even to the point of a loss of salvation for unbelief of the IC; isn’t that correct?

Gamera:

If I understand our fundamentalist friends correctly, they believe that any “spirit-filled” believer will understand that Scripture “really means” salvation by faith alone, even though Scripture never actually says it. You know – just like a spirit filled believer will know that James 2:24, which says we are NOT saved by faith alone, doesn’t really mean that. Apparently the Bible is in a code that only fundamentalists can decipher.

Actually, Martin Luther believed that Romans 3:28 should have the word “alone” added to the passage, and he did so in his German translation.

Turns out, Luther had some good company in so doing.

The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 with the word “alone.”Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):

Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).

Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).

Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).

Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): “sola fide justificati sunt dono Dei,” through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).

John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).

Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19]).

Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): “solam justificatur per fidem,” is justified by faith alone.

Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).

To these eight Lyonnet added two others (Quaestiones, 114-18):

Theodoret, Affectionum curatio 7 (PG 93.100; ed. J. Raeder [Teubner], 189.20-24).

Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): “Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28: Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28: We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): “reputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiam”; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): “solum ex fide Christi” [Opera 20.437, b41]).

See further:

Theodore of Mopsuestia, In ep. ad Galatas (ed. H. B. Swete), 1.31.15.

Marius Victorinus (ep. Pauli ad Galatas (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15-16: “Ipsa enim fides sola iustificationem dat-et sanctificationem” (For faith itself alone gives justification and sanctification); In ep. Pauli Ephesios (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15: “Sed sola fides in Christum nobis salus est” (But only faith in Christ is salvation for us).

Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”). Migne Latin Text: Venire quippe debet etiam illud in mentem, quod scriptum est, In hoc cognoscimus eum, si mandata ejus servemus. Qui dicit, Quia cognovi eum, et mandata ejus non servat, mendax est, et in hoc veritas non est (I Joan. II, 3, 4). Et ne quisquam existimet mandata ejus ad solam fidem pertinere: quanquam dicere hoc nullus est ausus, praesertim quia mandata dixit, quae ne multitudine cogitationem spargerent [Note: [Col. 0223] Sic Mss. Editi vero, cogitationes parerent.], In illis duobus tota Lex pendet et Prophetae (Matth. XXII, 40): licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere Dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intelligatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur; tamen postea Joannes ipse aperuit quid diceret, cum ait: Hoc est mandatum ejus, ut credamus nomini Filii ejus Jesu Christi, et diligamns invicem (I Joan. III, 23) See De fide et operibus, Cap. XXII, §40, PL 40:223.

Source: Joseph A. Fitzmyer Romans, A New Translation with introduction and Commentary, The Anchor Bible Series (New York: Doubleday, 1993) 360-361.

Gamera:

So much for perspicacity.

Perspicuity.

 

[guanophore]

No specific phrase exists saying ***”Mary is a forever sinless virgin whose body will be assumed into heaven,” ***and yet you believe those things are true, even to the point of a loss of salvation for unbelief of the IC; isn’t that correct?

Loss of salvation comes from rejecting Christ. Jesus told the Apostles that those who reject them, reject the One who sent them. The Assumption of Mary is part of the Apostolic Teaching. Once a person begins rejecting parts of it, one can quickly fall into error, which is the same as passing through the gates of hell.

It is more accurate to say that Mary’s body has already been assumed into heaven, just like that of Enoch, and Elijah. Can’t God take up whoever He pleases?

One cannot “lose” something that one has not yet attained. Catholics take after what St. Paul describes as a “mature” attitude, in that we have not attained our salvation in this life.

Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”).

Augustine articulates the key that all these writers embrace. The faith “alone” that saves is faith that works. It is faith working through love. That is why the Catholic Church does not separate that saving faith from the fruit it produces.

You have done a great job documenting why Catholics have always believed that human beings are saved by grace, through faith.

It is such passages that cause the mind to boggle when some Protestants accuse Catholics of “works based salvation”.

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

My point is in fact that there is no clear division between the two. It is for that very reason that I quoted all of the verses I did on sanctification…. Try reading the post again and you will see that my choice of passages deliberately excluded any passage that used the word justification. I did this to show that if you inserted the word justification in place of the word sanctification you would not violate scriptural truth. In the passages the words can be used interchangeably.

Those are two different Greek words meaning two different things, Pax.

But I do find your hermeneutic interesting. Why not insert ”ever sinless, ever virgin,” wherever Mary’s name appears to demonstrate the interchangeability of “Mary” with “ever sinless, ever virgin?”

Or, how about ”the First Pope,” wherever Peter’s name appears to demonstrate the interchangeability of “Peter” with “the First Pope?”

Pax:

An imputed righteousness does not make a person truly righteous. Imputed righteousness means that the person remains polluted and that there is no inner renewal per the Westminster statement on justification.

You’re quibbling, Pax.

Pax:

Only the Catholic understanding of infused righteousness is consistent with the truth of God making us righteous.

Please cite all of the passages of Scripture that speak of an “infusion” of anything, Pax?

Pax:

This is simply untrue. We have shown numerous times on this thread, by way of scripture, that Christians can fall from grace, can fall away, and can lose their salvation.

Not to my satisfaction, you haven’t.

You’ve offered no proof that to fall, fallen from grace, stumble, etc. means a loss of salvation.

My question posed earlier in the thread has yet to be answered:**

Where in Sacred Writ is a statement that describes the group that Catholics claim God predestined to grace only—He foreknew them, predestined them to grace, called and justified them, and then lets many of them lose their justification and be condemned to hell?

Where is that stated?**

 

[Vincent]

My question posed earlier in the thread has yet to be answered:** Where in Sacred Writ is a statement that describes the group that Catholics claim God predestined to grace only—He foreknew them, predestined them to grace, called and justified them, and then lets many of them lose their justification and be condemned to hell?**** Where is that stated?**

Matthew 22:1-14 (RSV)
1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying,
2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son,
3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come.
4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have made ready my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves are killed, and everything is ready; come to the marriage feast.’
5 But they made light of it and went off, one to his farm, another to his business,
6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them.
7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those invited were not worthy.
9 Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.’
10 And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment;
12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
​

In summary,

• This man was called.
• This man was brought into the wedding hall.
• This man was a guest.
• The King called him “friend”.
• This man was cast out.
• This man, who was once in the wedding hall, is now in the outer darkness.
  We know what “the outer darkness” stands for.

 

[steppenwolf1218]

I also find it fascinating that this is the ONLY place where the words “faith alone” appear together.

I think it is significant that Paul writes about three things that abide, faith, hope, and love. Why would not the greatest be faith?

I’ve always known the greatest of the three to be love. Without the love of God, nothing else would matter. Unless we do it for the love of God, all else would be an exercise in futility. That’s a point that is usually missing from these “faith alone” discussions.

BTW, you and Pax have been doing a great job in defending the Faith along with a couple of others. Keep up the good work. It makes for enjoyable reading.
Take care
Dennis

 

[moondweller]

There are works of the law (law of Moses) and good works (law of Christ).
Works of the law is a system of wages and good works is a system of grace.
Works of the law don’t save and good works do. It is that simple

And that’s simply another gospel.

The difference is clear in Ephesians 2. Paul refers to works of the law in v 8-9. He refers to good works in v 10.

No he doesn’t. The “good works” are prepared for those who have already been saved “by grace through faith,” not of themselves, not as a result of works (vss. 8-9). Those saved through faith are now “His workmanship” in that they are “created in Christ Jesus” (the risen Christ) FOR good works (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17). Paul precludes works of any kind. The fruit of good behavior and good works certainly may follow as one walks in the Spirit who now indwells him, but those in Eph. 2:10, “created (by God) in Christ Jesus,” are those whom Paul previously described as saved strictly by grace through faith and void of works (vss. 8-9).

 

[steppenwolf1218]

Matthew 22:1-14 (RSV)
1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying,
2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son,
3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come.
4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have made ready my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves are killed, and everything is ready; come to the marriage feast.’
5 But they made light of it and went off, one to his farm, another to his business,
6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them.
7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those invited were not worthy.
9 Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.’
10 And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment;
12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
​

In summary,

• This man was called.
• This man was brought into the wedding hall.
• This man was a guest.
• The King called him “friend”.
• This man was cast out.
• This man, who was once in the wedding hall, is now in the outer darkness.
  We know what “the outer darkness” stands for.

Good answer! Remember too all those originally invited but scoffed at the invitation. Their invite was withdrawn and given to others. Of course, expect sandusky to refute this example. It seems he is good with rebuttal but not so good with solid answers. lol.
Take care
Dennis

 

[moondweller]

News flash, moondweller. Believing is a work.

Not according to Paul: Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,” In both verses Paul contrasts “faith” with “works.” If faith was considered a work by Paul then he would have been contradicting himself.

Nor was Jesus actually calling faith in Him a “work” for salvation in Jn. 6:27-29. In verse 27 Jesus contrasted food that perishes (in reference to the meal He miraculously provided for them the day prior) with the food that endures to eternal life which He, the Son of Man, shall GIVE them. And He pitted labor over against “give.” But the warning about labor failed to register with them (no surprise) and instead they asked what they themselves must do that they might “work the works of God” (IOW, the works that you would define as “sacred”).

Jesus redefines “works” as singular (the “work” of God) and it to be not an act of labor on their part, but a declaration of belief. That they believe on Him whom He (God) had sent. Personal acceptance of His Person and claims is the method whereby life eternal is freely given (like the meal they enjoyed the day prior). Personal faith in the One God sent, rather than personal works, is what enables one to fulfill God’s program for salvation and receive the free gift of eternal life. This is Christ’s message to Israel throughout the gospel account of John.

 

[cpayne]

Paul precludes works of any kind.

“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. . . . Charge them that are rich. . . that they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate, laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life” (1 Timothy 6----by Paul ). It sounds like Paul does connect the way we live with whether or not we achieve eternity with God. Even after our profession, we must fight the good fight of faith to lay hold on eternal life. Being rich in good works lays up a good foundation for us to lay hold on eternal life. Is this Paul writing here?

Do you think that receiving an eternity with God has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with how we live?

Actually, I think we are closer in our thinking than you might believe. You said (quoting scripture) that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Catholics believe exactly this. By grace, through faith, we are saved; part of that is that by grace through faith, God enables us to perform meritorious actions.

I think we just put the “alone” in a different place. You seem to read it as that we are saved “by grace through faith [alone] and not by works,” which is unscriptural. We read it as that we are saved “by grace through faith and not by works [alone],” which corresponds much more closely to the rest of the Bible.

 

[moondweller]

In summary,

• This man was called.
• This man was brought into the wedding hall.
• This man was a guest.
• The King called him “friend”.
• This man was cast out.
• This man, who was once in the wedding hall, is now in the outer darkness.
  We know what “the outer darkness” stands for.

The keynote in this parable: he had no wedding garment. A requirement for attendance. He didn’t belong there, he never did. Fast forward to post-cross: He was not clothed in righteousness, specifically, “the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of FAITH” (Phil. 3:9).

 

[sandusky]

Vincent:

In summary,
• This man was called.
• This man was brought into the wedding hall.
• This man was a guest.
• The King called him “friend”.
• This man was cast out.
• This man, who was once in the wedding hall, is now in the outer darkness.
We know what “the outer darkness” stands for.

Yes I know what outer darkness means, and also know that all are called to repent and believe in the Gospel, and also know that not all will, but only those who are chosen; however, that doesn’t answer my question.

Catholics contend that a group of people exists who **God foreknew, predestined to grace, called and justified, and then lets many of them lose their justification and be condemned to hell?

Where, in scripture, is that stated?**

 

[moondweller]

“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. . . . Charge them that are rich. . . that they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate, laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life” (1 Timothy 6----by Paul ). It sounds like Paul does connect the way we live with whether or not we achieve eternity with God. Even after our profession, we must fight the good fight of faith to lay hold on eternal life. Being rich in good works lays up a good foundation for us to lay hold on eternal life. Is this Paul writing here?

Do you think that receiving an eternity with God has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with how we live?

Actually, I think we are closer in our thinking than you might believe. You said (quoting scripture) that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Catholics believe exactly this. By grace, through faith, we are saved; part of that is that by grace through faith, God enables us to perform meritorious actions.

I think we just put the “alone” in a different place. You seem to read it as that we are saved “by grace through faith [alone] and not by works,” which is unscriptural. We read it as that we are saved “by grace through faith and not by works [alone],” which corresponds much more closely to the rest of the Bible.

“…not as a result of works” is essentially faith alone.

Do you think that receiving an eternity with God has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with how we live?

Yes. But not vise versa (Rom. 6:23). It’s in Whom we’ve believed.

 

[cpayne]

“…not as a result of works” is essentially faith alone.

Adding to scripture? Tsk, tsk.

By the way, these two statements—

(1) Receiving eternity with God has something to do with how we live.

and

(2) How we live has something to do with receiving eternity with God,

do seem the same to me.

 

[sandusky]

Good Fella:

The notion of a predetermined elected few presupposes that God predetermined the fall of Adam in order to arrange this predetermined election.

Yes, predestination presupposes Adam’s fall.

It also presupposes Christ’s crucifixion:**Acts 4:27-28

“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.**Was God merely ”lucky” that Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the peoples of Israel crucified Christ?

Is God an eternally lucky being in that, in the end, things just work out according to His will?
Good Fella:

Paul tells the Ephesians that God has predestined us out of love to be his adopted sons in Christ Jesus (1, 5). But “predestination” means that God knows what we will freely do before we do it, whether we will accept or reject his saving grace.

This makes God contingent, but scripture declares God sovereign!*

ISTM that you’re view of God is deficient; so, right from the beginning your theology errs, and the errors compound as you formulate your theology on its first error.

You’re right that God knows what all men will freely do with respect to accepting Hi as their King—there is none who seeks for God; therefore, God must choose to save some, or none would be saved.
Good Fella:

If God has “predetermined” our actions with regard to our response to his grace, then there is no room for human free will.

I’ll assert as you assert; predetermination accounts for the creature’s free choice.
Good Fella:

Your Protestant understanding of the word “predestination” is a misinterpretation of the word, which explains why you believe your personal salvation is eternally guaranteed.

Scripture commands the believer to be assured; perhaps that’s your “misinterpretation” of the whole of scripture?
Good Fella:

The effects of the fall can be corrected by God’s grace if we freely choose to accept His gift and thereby lead responsible Christian lives. And we cannot hope to be saved unless we do good works in a state of sanctifying grace. There is no merit for us by giving alms to the poor while in a state of unrepented mortal sin. Anyway, by the grace of God we attain the salvation He desires for “all” of us through perseverance in faith and good works.

”By the grace of God we attain…” the truth of your heart with regards to earning salvation reveals itself, IMHO. I hope you’ll keep your denial, and semantics regarding that to a minimum.
Good Fella:

Our free will is that stone only God can create in order to be too heavy for him to lift. God does not impose himself on us.

That’s the pillar and foundation of the Arminian position with respect to creation—the glorious and inviolable will of the creature trumps the will of the creator.

*God’s foreknowledge is His knowledge of all actual things before they exist. His foreknowledge is made certain, not by foresight, but by divine decree by which He determined all existing things. His foreknowledge is equated with His counsel (plan or decree).

God’s “purpose” precedes His “foreknowledge” in Rom 8:28-29; the truth that His election is one of divine grace, not of foreseen human works or merit (Rom 9:11; 11:5-6; 2 Tim 1:9).

 

[sandusky]

Our free will is that stone only God can create in order to be too heavy for him to lift. God does not impose himself on us.

**Romans 6:12-16

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you
obey its lusts,

13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?**

You think that your free choice means you free; however, it doesn’t; if you freely break the law, then sin is your Master.

If you freely keep the law, then the law is your Master.

How is one who is obedient to a “Master,” be that Master Sin, or be that Master Law, "FREE?"

And the passage above speaks of the one who is “in Christ.” The one who is not in Christ, is referred to as “dead in Sin” (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13; cf Eph 2:5).

How is being dead in Sin being free?

 

[moondweller]

Adding to scripture? Tsk, tsk.

No. Just a proper exegesis of the text.

By the way, these two statements—

(1) Receiving eternity with God has something to do with how we live.

and

(2) How we live has something to do with receiving eternity with God,

do seem the same to me.

There’s a fundamental difference of cause and effect between each of these statements. Receiving eternal life, giftwise, will effect how we now live. But how we live has nothing to do with receiving eternal life. It’s gifted at the moment of belief (Rom. 6:23).

 

[ryanoneil]

And that’s simply another gospel.No he doesn’t. The “good works” are prepared for those who have already been saved “by grace through faith,” not of themselves, not as a result of works (vss. 8-9). Those saved through faith are now “His workmanship” in that they are “created in Christ Jesus” (the risen Christ) FOR good works (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17).

Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes “good works.” The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace.

v8-9 refers to the “works” of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.

Right after teaching on “works” referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for “good works” - a clear distinction between “works of law” (Mosaic law/legal payment) and “good works” (law of Christ/reward of grace).

Paul precludes works of any kind. The fruit of good behavior and good works certainly may follow as one walks in the Spirit who now indwells him, but those in Eph. 2:10, “created (by God) in Christ Jesus,” are those whom Paul previously described as saved strictly by grace through faith and void of works (vss. 8-9).

That is incorrect. Paul precludes “works of law” but not “good works.” Faith justifies initially, but good works perfect and complete justification.

eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works (Rom 2:7)

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:13) Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law”

For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (Gal 5:6)

All faith (initial and perfected) is a gift from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

**

Where in Sacred Writ is a statement that describes the group that Catholics claim God predestined to grace only—He foreknew them, predestined them to grace, called and justified them, and then lets many of them lose their justification and be condemned to hell?**

Where is that stated?

The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.(Rev. 3:5)

Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Peace,

Ryan