Faith Alone

[moondweller]

Please explain to me why it isn’t true and why Jesus is wrong in what he tells the lawyer in Luke 10:25-37.
Do you really believe that Jesus is wrong when he tells the lawyer that loving God above all things and love of neighbor will bring about the inheritance of eternal life?

Did you take note that the man was a lawyer, Pax? An expert in the Mosaic Law. Jesus asked him what it says in the Law, he replied, and the Lord answered him according to the Law saying,“do this and you will live” (Lev. 18:5). Jesus did not say to the lawyer that he would inherit eternal life, but only that he would “live.” The Law could not impart to him eternal life: “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law, then Christ died needlessly” (Gal. 2:21).

Notice, Pax, that in verse 25 Luke writes that the lawyer’s question was posed to Jesus “to put Him to the test.” Jesus knew very well that it was not a sincere question. It was a question rooted in unbelief and self-righteousness. The lawyer knew he could not live up to the standard of the Law, so he tried to “justify himself” by quibbling over a definition (vs. 29). So Jesus replied with the story about the good Samaritan, a person whom the lawyer would have treated with contempt. The moral of the story is that the Samaritan, whom the lawyer despised, proved more righteous, in respect to the Mosaic Law, than the lawyer who claimed to be an expert of its teachings. Jesus caught him with his own words. The lawyer’s need at the moment was to understand that the Law could only condemned him, it could neither save him nor impart to him eternal life (cf. 2 Cor. 3:7-12). These must be gifted upon belief in Christ, and Christ alone.

No doubt the lawyer often heard Jesus proclaim to the crowds in Israel:John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."Scripture gives us nothing more on the lawyer’s life, but at that point of time he refused to believe in Christ. He was self-righteous and arrogant thinking he could merit eternal life. He thought nothing of Jesus, nor His words concerning belief in Him. Rather than faith in Christ alone, the lawyer appealed instead to his own works, his own righteousness, thinking that by them God would be indebted to him for life eternal.

The scorecard argument is a strawman. Jesus never tells us to keep a scorecard. He makes an interesting comment in the gospel when he tells Peter that we must “forgive seventy times seven times.” This is not a scorecard…this is instead a rejection of the scorecard mentality.

I asked about a “divine scorecard” he could access so that he might know just how close to the mark he is getting, or how far he was missing it.

Does your faith alone really “merit” salvation?

The word “merit” has no place in my understanding of Biblical soteriology. Only GRACE. I can find MANY verses in Scripture that tell me I’m saved “by grace.” Can you show me the Scriptures that use the word “merit” in connection with salvation? Can you show me where the word “merit” is used at all in the N.T.? That was the lawyer’s problem, Pax. He wanted eternal life according to his own merit.

This entire post mischaracterizes Catholic teaching. I would suggest studying the catechism of the Catholic Church in order to understand the various points that you have touched on.

I have.

Most importantly, I strongly suggest that you memorize, study, and understand Eph 2:10 and its importance in understanding and appreciating verses 8 and 9.

In verse 10 those who are saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works are now His workmanship, “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17). Good works were prepared only for those who have been gifted salvation, according to grace, through faith, not as a result of works (IOW, faith alone).

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Did you take note that the man was a lawyer, Pax? An expert in the Mosaic Law. Jesus asked him what it says in the Law, he replied, and the Lord answered him according to the Law saying,“do this and you will live” Who is being the lawer now?(Lev. 18:5). Jesus did not say to the lawyer that he would inherit eternal life, but only that he would “live.” The Law could not impart to him eternal life: “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law, then Christ died needlessly” (Gal. 2:21). Wasn’t that the problem with Calvin’s understanding of scripture. He saw it as a legal document, to be read like a legal document. Isn’t that why calvinist today cherry-pick biblical versus out of context and splice them together to get them to say what they believe.

Notice, Pax, that in verse 25 Luke writes that the lawyer’s question was posed to Jesus “to put Him to the test.” Jesus knew very well that it was not a sincere question. It was a question rooted in unbelief and self-righteousness. The lawyer knew he could not live up to the standard of the Law, so he tried to “justify himself” by quibbling over a definition (vs. 29). So Jesus replied with the story about the good Samaritan, a person whom the lawyer would have treated with contempt. The moral of the story is that the Samaritan, whom the lawyer despised, proved more righteous, in respect to the Mosaic Law, than the lawyer who claimed to be an expert of its teachings. Jesus caught him with his own words. The lawyer’s need at the moment was to understand that the Law could only condemned him, it could neither save him nor impart to him eternal life (cf. 2 Cor. 3:7-12). These must be gifted upon belief in Christ, and Christ alone.

No doubt the lawyer often heard Jesus proclaim to the crowds in Israel:John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."Scripture gives us nothing more on the lawyer’s life, but at that point of time he refused to believe in Christ. He was self-righteous and arrogant thinking he could merit eternal life. He thought nothing of Jesus, nor His words concerning belief in Him. Rather than faith in Christ alone, the lawyer appealed instead to his own works, (He appealed to the works of the law not his own) his own righteousness, thinking that by them God would be indebted to him for life eternal.I asked about a “divine scorecard” he could access so that he might know just how close to the mark he is getting, or how far he was missing it.The word “merit” has no place in my understanding of Biblical soteriology. You were the one to use the word, here first. How can it not have a place in your bible soteriology since you use it to describe something you don’t understand and the bible is your sole rule of faith. Only GRACE. I can find MANY verses in Scripture that tell me I’m saved “by grace.” Yet several post back you say that you are not saved by grace but faith.Can you show me the Scriptures that use the word “merit” in connection with salvation? Can you show me where the word “merit” is used at all in the N.T.? That was the lawyer’s problem, Pax. He wanted eternal life according to his own (incorrect understanding, he was speaking of the work of the law)merit.I have.In verse 10 those who are saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works are now His workmanship, “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17). Good works were prepared only for those who have been gifted salvation, according to grace, through faith, not as a result of works (IOW, faith alone).

If Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church and her members with Christ at the head of the Church are “in faith”, then the good works that we do out which are a part of our faith, include love and obenience to God are the works of God according to your understand.

Take a minute to understand that…

Are your works of charity in Christ preformed for yourself or in co-operation with God. If you say they are for God, then your the same as us.

Why not grant fellow christians (Catholics) the same view of faith in action that you have for yourself.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

There was no “luck” involved, but certainly she was a mere woman, else the Son did not become a man, one of us, our “kinsman” Redeemer.

The is a side track but can be dealt with easily. Did Jesus have the sin of man attached at birth? Did he have to die for himself as well as for all men?

I’ll assume your answer is no, because a yes response will cause bigger problems for your theology if you respond with a “yes”

The sin of man is attached at birth by being brought to life thru the mother according to the understanding of God’s chosen people.

Now did Jesus have the sin of man attached at birth?

 

[Jason_W]

In verse 10 those who are saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works are now His workmanship, “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17). Good works were prepared only for those who have been gifted salvation, according to grace, through faith, not as a result of works (IOW, faith alone).

when Paul says “not as a result of works” he means God did not give to us salvation because of something we did. it was by no means anything we did to cause Christ to come down to earth and redeem us. but it was by Gods Grace that he would fulfill his promise not just to abraham’s blood decendents , but to all who would believe through faith. Now if someone says he has faith then by what means can he prove it, if it is not that which comes from love and good works. and 2 Cor 5:17 states Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; * the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. indeed i believe this 100% but are you saying that once someone is in Christ he cannot do anything but good works, as if it were not his choice ?

we are indeed created in Christ Jesus for good works. and God did prepare them beforehand that we SHOULD walk in them. what would happen to a believer if he remained in fornication?

Eph 5:5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God

As long as we remain in Christ , the Holy Spirit will remain in us and we will produce fruit worthy of the Spirit. Gal 5:22

But what if we do not remain in the Spirit? we must stir up each other to love and good works. Heb 10:24 that we may not fall back into sin.

Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was SANCTIFIED , and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

We have been grafted in by our faith, but remember it must be a WORKING faith, that is on our account, by what we choose to do, be it good or evil. but if we continue in evil then we too will be cut off as an unbeliever. You cannot say you are a believer and not have love or good works.

Romans 11:17-22 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness * of the olive tree, 18 do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20* That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

God prepared good works that we should walk in them. God loved us to show us how we ought to love. but there is no guarantee that we will walk in good works and love, that comes through our perserverance. it is our perserverance in good works and love that prove our faith is true.

 

[guanophore]

How much have you loved and conquered toward your salvation today, Pax? Is there a divine scorecard to which you have access? Is there a way to measure the quality of each? Or does God, in the end, grade on a curve?

I don’t know about a “scorecard”. Certainly there are criteria by which we may measure ourselves.

“For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.” 2 Peter 1:5-9

We can know that we are progressing. I am sure that you would agree with this, but the difference is that Protestants separate salvation (justification) from sanctification, which Catholics do not. We do not believe that one can be saved apart from faith, but we do believe that it is possible to supplement one’s faith by one’s own efforts.

Personally I don’t think that God “grades on a curve”. I think one is either in a state of grace, or not.

Heb 12:14
14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Why “strive” for holiness if it is all a gift? Yes, we are saved by grace, through faith, but it is a faith that works, a faith that strives. If not, it is not saving faith.

 

[guanophore]

Where in Scripture is this “essential doctrine” taught? Book, chapter, verse, please?

I thought you understood by now that the Catholic faith is based upon the teachings of Jesus, and is not “bible based”? Catholicism preceeded the Bible for several centuries, and is not dependent upon the contents of it for matters of faith.

 

[Axion]

.The word “merit” has no place in my understanding of Biblical soteriology. Only GRACE. I can find MANY verses in Scripture that tell me I’m saved “by grace.” Can you show me the Scriptures that use the word “merit” in connection with salvation? Can you show me where the word “merit” is used at all in the N.T.? That was the lawyer’s problem, Pax. He wanted eternal life according to his own merit.I have.In verse 10 those who are saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works are now His workmanship, “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17). Good works were prepared only for those who have been gifted salvation, according to grace, through faith, not as a result of works (IOW, faith alone).

Jesus is quite clear on this. He didn’t teach Faith Alone:

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven,** but only he who does the will** of my Father who is in heaven.”

Matthew 25 :31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 “He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 ‘I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 ‘When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 ‘When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 ‘For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 ‘I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[clmowry]

I wonder if St. Paul’s in heaven shaking his head: “You know Jesus, if I had known so many people were going to twist my words to contradict Yours, I would have never written a thing.”

Chuck

Jesus is quite clear on this. He didn’t teach Faith Alone:

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven,** but only he who does the will** of my Father who is in heaven.”

Matthew 25 :31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 “He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 ‘I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 ‘When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 ‘When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 ‘For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 ‘I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[steppenwolf1218]

There was no “luck” involved, but certainly she was a mere woman, else the Son did not become a man, one of us, our “kinsman” Redeemer.

God chose two very special people to care for His Son. Neither Mary nor Joseph could be considered mere humans. What they were asked to do demanded humility, selflessness, faith and most of all love. We have them to thank for our Savior, although it be God’s plan for us. Nonetheless, He chose two very special and unique people to care for His saving gift for us. Don’t ever call them “mere”.

Now that you cherry picked my post again, answer this question. How could Mary be in any state of sin, even only Original sin and still be able to carry Christ?

 

[sandusky]

I thought you understood by now that the Catholic faith is based upon the teachings of Jesus, and is not “bible based”? Catholicism preceeded the Bible for several centuries, and is not dependent upon the contents of it for matters of faith.

Translation: There is no biblical basis for the immaculate conception.

 

[sandusky]

Jesus is quite clear on this. He didn’t teach Faith Alone:

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven,** but only he who does the will** of my Father who is in heaven.”

Matthew 25 :31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 “He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 ‘I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 ‘When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 ‘When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 ‘For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 ‘I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I hope you do enough to demand of God that you be finally saved (cf Rom 4:4ff).

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I hope you do enough to demand of God that you be finally saved (cf Rom 4:4ff).

I hope you are aware neither Abraham (see my sig) nor David (repenting of adultery) were “finally saved” in Rom 4:4f.

If you want a real eye opener follow the link in my signature where I demonstrate decisively that Protestantism has been defeated using the plain teaching of Scripture.

 

[sandusky]

I hope you are aware neither Abraham (see my sig) nor David (repenting of adultery) were “finally saved” in Rom 4:4f.

If you want a real eye opener follow the link in my signature where I demonstrate decisively that Protestantism has been defeated using the plain teaching of Scripture.

Nice pat on your own back, Dude.

I’ll offer a few links of my own which present hundreds of articles on Justification: The Imputation of Christ’s Righteousness

Classic essays on Justification

James vs. Paul

Contemporary Essays, and Articles on Justification

Justification and Sanctification

Critiques of Roman Catholic Teaching on Justification

 

[Pax]

Did you take note that the man was a lawyer, Pax? An expert in the Mosaic Law. Jesus asked him what it says in the Law, he replied, and the Lord answered him according to the Law saying,“do this and you will live” (Lev. 18:5). Jesus did not say to the lawyer that he would inherit eternal life, but only that he would “live.” The Law could not impart to him eternal life: “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law, then Christ died needlessly” (Gal. 2:21).

…
…
Rather than faith in Christ alone, the lawyer appealed instead to his own works, his own righteousness, thinking that by them God would be indebted to him for life eternal.I asked about a “divine scorecard” he could access so that he might know just how close to the mark he is getting, or how far he was missing it.

…
…

This is a great example of how one can twist scripture. Please be advised that your claims about the lawyer are made up out of thin air. You added a great deal of verbiage about the lawyer and even Jesus that are nothing more than a thinly veiled effort to deflect the obvious.

Let’s look at it again.

Luke 10:25-29
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”

Jesus is the truth incarnate. The man asked a question and although his motive was to test Jesus, Jesus was not going to lie, confuse, or otherwise misdirect the man, his own disciples, or us. When asked about eternal life, Jesus would and can only give a truthful answer or no answer at all.

For your scenario and perspective to be correct, Jesus could have only given one of two answers. Jesus would have had to say “believe in me; you will be saved by faith alone,” or he would have told him to “keep all of the Mosaic and Levitical laws.”

Jesus did not do either of those things. Instead, Jesus asked him what the entirety of the OT law taught. He wanted to know how the lawyer understood the entire message of the Mosaic law. The lawyer answered with a beautiful and true summary. Likewise, Jesus, who is the fulfillment of the Old Law and Testament, acknowledges the truth which is fulfilled in Him.

The good news of the gospel is one of love. The summary of the Old is fulfilled in the New Covenant and Jesus, therefore, tells the lawyer that he has answered correctly. In doing so Jesus is still talking about the lawyer’s original inquiry about salvation. Likewise, when Jesus says “do this and you will live” He is definitely talking about salvation.

There are other examples in scripture that demonstrate that the expression “will live” refers to salvation. Here are a few:

Jn 5:25
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”

Jn 6:51
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever.”

Jn 11:25-26
"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jn 14:19
“Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you will see me; because I live, you will live also.”

Romans 8:13
“…for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.”

 

[sandusky]

moondweller:

Did you take note that the man was a lawyer, Pax? An expert in the Mosaic Law. Jesus asked him what it says in the Law, he replied, and the Lord answered him according to the Law saying,“do this and you will live” (Lev. 18:5). Jesus did not say to the lawyer that he would inherit eternal life, but only that he would “live.” The Law could not impart to him eternal life: “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law, then Christ died needlessly” (Gal. 2:21).

Amen…**Acts 13:38-39

“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that THROUGH HIM forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and THROUGH HIM everyone WHO BELIEVES is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed THROUGH THE LAW OF MOSES.**

 

[moondweller]

God chose two very special people to care for His Son. Neither Mary nor Joseph could be considered mere humans. What they were asked to do demanded humility, selflessness, faith and most of all love. We have them to thank for our Savior, although it be God’s plan for us. Nonetheless, He chose two very special and unique people to care for His saving gift for us. Don’t ever call them “mere”.

Now that you cherry picked my post again, answer this question. How could Mary be in any state of sin, even only Original sin and still be able to carry Christ?

Because she was “merely” (nothing more than) human. Anything else and she would have to have been a special creation of God - IOW, not born, devoid of human parents.

The requirement was that He be born of a virgin. Scripture does not specify a sinless virgin. One specially created for Him.

 

[moondweller]

Jesus is the truth incarnate. The man asked a question and although his motive was to test Jesus, Jesus was not going to lie, confuse, or otherwise misdirect the man, his own disciples, or us. When asked about eternal life, Jesus would and can only give a truthful answer or no answer at all.

You’re going to dictate what Jesus can say? If Jesus had said he could inherit eternal life by keeping what the Law demanded, THEN He would have lied. He didn’t. It was the lawyer who was deceptive. He got the answer he needed from Christ. You have too.

 

[guanophore]

Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Phil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,“Not contradiction there.Help me out GF, I’m looking for the verse that says,"For because of your love of God you have merited your salvation, but not by love alone, but as a result of sacred works…”

No, you are adding in your misunderstandings about Catholic Soteriology. Catholics wrote the NT, and it represents Catholic beliefs 100%. Catholics believe that we are saved by grace, through faith, for works. The saving faith is a faith that works (loves) and perseveres (endures to the end). These qualities of saving faith cannot be separated from initial justification.

In order to be saved one must:
…
(5) Strive (persevere) until the end of the age.[/indent]The last is most interesting because it would tell us that according to Catholic understanding not one person has yet been saved. Those on earth, in heaven and in “purgatory” must all continue to “strive” until the end of the age, which of course does not occur until Christ’s second advent to this earth.

This is a good example of one of your misunderstandings about the Catholic understanding of salvation. Catholics believe that those who are in heaven and purgatory are already saved. Furthermore, those that have passed from this life in eternal life with Christ have ceased from their striving.

Striving to enter His rest is an activity that applies only to this life.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!” Rev 14:13

We’re told that the ability to perform these “sacred works” springs from “grace” infused into the sinner’s soul and that afterwards these “sacred works” merit, – that is, they give man just claim to salvation.

Do you think that sacred works can spring from anywhere but grace?

Catholics consider the bestowal of merit at the judgement part of Gods ulitmate plan of salvation for mankind. However, Catholicism does not teach what you are implying here about works giving “man claim to salvation”. Salvation cannot be earned, merited, or claimed by man. It is available only by the grace of God. God bestows upon us the gift of salvation by His grace. When we receive this gift, and respond by doing works that befit repentance, God rewards us for our faithful service. this is not the same as “earning” salvation as you imply.

But wait! it doesn’t stop there, they can perform sacred works of supererogation; works that are more than necessary for their own salvation and stored away for the benefit of others. Even though Scripture reveals no such storehouse, and though a believer’s works may be rewarded by God at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:11-15) not one of them are revealed to be meritorious in respect to salvation. God is never a debtor to the one who performs them (Rom. 4:1-5).

It seems this way to you I think because you conceive of salvation as something that happens at one point in time, for all time. This, however, is not consistent with the Apostolic teaching on salvation. You also have a misconception about Catholic teaching on salvation. Catholicism does NOT teach that God is a “debtor” to humans. As far as our good works being able to benefit other members of the Body, perhaps we should address that in another thread?

 

[guanophore]

Your statement, “We must obey the will of God and keep his commandments out of love of Him and our neighbour to reach heaven,” places God in the position of being indebted to men and bound to save based on their performance. This, of course, is contrary to God’s own Word where it is written that salvation is: by grace; through faith; gifted; not as a result of works.

I think you have a misconception here. Jesus clearly teaches that, if we are His, we will follow Him. This means to keep His commandments and be obedient to Him. This is our duty and obligation, not God’s.

10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’" Luke 17:10

If God chooses to reward His servants, this is His perogative. He is not obligated to do so.

Christ Himself put all of man’s works in right perspective to God:

I agree. I think, if you hold this perspective, you will have a Catholic understanding of the role of works in salvation.

Hence, salvation must originate from something far greater and far more remarkable than human works (of any kind): “divine GRACE, through faith, gifted, not as a result of works” - for Christ’s sake and to His glory.

This is very Catholic. The only difference may be that Catholics do not separate the grace into parts. We believe that the grace which regenerates us produced fruit. We believe that saving faith is obedient faith, and such faith leads a saved person to cooperate with the grace of God, enabling such a one to walk in the deeds that God has prepared for them from the beginning of time.

 

[guanophore]

Did you take note that the man was a lawyer, Pax? An expert in the Mosaic Law. Jesus asked him what it says in the Law, he replied, and the Lord answered him according to the Law saying,“do this and you will live” (Lev. 18:5). Jesus did not say to the lawyer that he would inherit eternal life, but only that he would “live.”

Such a renderning mauls the context. The lawyer is clearly asking about eternal life. Jesus is not trying to play on words! Love is the fulfillment of the Law, and this is recorded in many places. Humans cannot love perfectly apart from grace, through faith, that is why the law, apart from grace through faith, cannot save a person. Those who were saved under the law were saved the same way that we are who are not under it.

“In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth and Zechariah were righteous before God and blameless and able to follow all the commandments because they lived by grace, through faith. This was an obedient faith that did according to all that God commanded. God’s method of salvation has never changed. Humans have always been saved by grace, through faith. Such faith enables one to follow God’s commandments.

The Law could not impart to him eternal life: “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law, then Christ died needlessly” (Gal. 2:21).

Notice, Pax, that in verse 25 Luke writes that the lawyer’s question was posed to Jesus “to put Him to the test.” Jesus knew very well that it was not a sincere question. It was a question rooted in unbelief and self-righteousness. The lawyer knew he could not live up to the standard of the Law, so he tried to “justify himself” by quibbling over a definition (vs. 29).

I am in agreement with you on this point of exegesis. The only point where we apparently disagree is that Jesus’ answer was sincere, and not contrived.

So Jesus replied with the story about the good Samaritan, a person whom the lawyer would have treated with contempt. The moral of the story is that the Samaritan, whom the lawyer despised, proved more righteous, in respect to the Mosaic Law, than the lawyer who claimed to be an expert of its teachings. Jesus caught him with his own words. The lawyer’s need at the moment was to understand that the Law could only condemned him, it could neither save him nor impart to him eternal life (cf. 2 Cor. 3:7-12). These must be gifted upon belief in Christ, and Christ alone.

The story of the good Samaritan goes beyond just a fulfillment of the Mosaic law, because the others were indeed living according to Levitical law to avoid the victim. They were lawfully to avoid dead bodies (which the victim may appeared to have been) and gentiles, who were unclean to touch and with whom they were not to fraternize. This is Jesus way of showing that love is the fulfillment of the law, and then some!