Faith Alone

[dogknox]

There are just the three…“Faith, Hope & Love”!

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.** God is love**. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

IF…If you believe Jesus is “GOD”, then you will believe; “Man was saved by LOVE ALONE”!
IF…If you believe Jesus is a “DOOR”, then you will believe all must, enter through LOVE!
IF… If you believe "God is LOVE, then you will understand how a man with “Faith ALONE” is without Hope and LOVE!
IF…If you believe “God is LOVE” then you will understand that a man with “faith Alone” is without God… the man is>> “Godless”!

“Faith ALONE” takes LOVE out of salvation… It takes Jesus out of the salvation of mens souls! The Man made TRADITION of “faith ALONE” is “Anti-Christ” truly it had the hand of Satan in it’s formation!

Dogknox

 

[PLeeD]

That’s silly. You are totally mis-characterizing the issue. Posting this in the “non-catholic” forum amounts to trolling, IMO.

 

[Araninski]

This love you talk about is called grace, the love He gave us to save us is His grace.

Yahweh bless.

 

[wmscott]

1 Corinthians 13:13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Footnote:
In speaking of love, Paul is led by spontaneous association to mention faith and hope as well. They are already a well-known triad, three interrelated features of Christian life, more fundamental than any particular charism. The greatest . . . is love: love is operative even within the other members of the triad, so that it has a certain primacy among them. Or, if the perspective is temporal, love will remain even when faith has yielded to sight and hope to possession.

LINK

 

[JonNC]

There are just the three…“Faith, Hope & Love”!

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.** God is love**. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

IF…If you believe Jesus is “GOD”, then you will believe; “Man was saved by LOVE ALONE”!
IF…If you believe Jesus is a “DOOR”, then you will believe all must, enter through LOVE!
IF… If you believe "God is LOVE, then you will understand how a man with “Faith ALONE” is without Hope and LOVE!
IF…If you believe “God is LOVE” then you will understand that a man with “faith Alone” is without God… the man is>> “Godless”!

“Faith ALONE” takes LOVE out of salvation… It takes Jesus out of the salvation of mens souls! The Man made TRADITION of “faith ALONE” is “Anti-Christ” truly it had the hand of Satan in it’s formation!

I would agree, IF, your portrayal of sola fide had an even a stitch of accuracy. On the anti-Christ remark, I go out of my way to avoid the use of that term regarding the papacy, as the Lutheran reformers did, because I find it uneccessary and lacking in charity. I view yours the same way.

Jon

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

There are just the three…“Faith, Hope & Love”!

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.** God is love**. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

IF…If you believe Jesus is “GOD”, then you will believe; “Man was saved by LOVE ALONE”!
IF…If you believe Jesus is a “DOOR”, then you will believe all must, enter through LOVE!
IF… If you believe "God is LOVE, then you will understand how a man with “Faith ALONE” is without Hope and LOVE!
IF…If you believe “God is LOVE” then you will understand that a man with “faith Alone” is without God… the man is>> “Godless”!

“Faith ALONE” takes LOVE out of salvation… It takes Jesus out of the salvation of mens souls! The Man made TRADITION of “faith ALONE” is “Anti-Christ” truly it had the hand of Satan in it’s formation!

Not at all. As others have said, that’s a complete mischaracterization of sola fide. Sola fide fully comprehends the concept of God’s love because that faith is a gift and the love signifies that we are truly among God’s people. That’s why the beloved apostle John says a few verses after the one you quoted: “We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:19-20).

Likewise, it in no way takes out Jesus as the salvation of a man’s soul…it exists because of Christ’s salvation, therefore how could it be taking it out?

 

[dogknox]

Not at all. As others have said, that’s a complete mischaracterization of sola fide. Sola fide fully comprehends the concept of God’s love because that faith is a gift and the** love signifies that we are truly among God’s people.** That’s why the beloved apostle John says a few verses after the one you quoted: “We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:19-20).

Likewise, it in no way takes out Jesus as the salvation of a man’s soul…it exists because of Christ’s salvation, therefore how could it be taking it out?

Byzantine_Wolf It is good to meet you…I also point you to scriptures…
The Sheep and the Goats… BOTH have Faith… Both say the exact same things…“LORD WHEN DID WE”?
Sheep “Lord When did we GIVE YOU water/ food etc”?
Goats…“Lord when did we NOT GIVE YOU water/food etc”?
Both… Both have “FAITH”! But the Goats have “Faith ALONE” they lack love!
Love is to: “GIVE from the heart”!
The Sheep are RIGHTEOUS… to be Righteous you MUST Do Right!

1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

Byzantine_Wolf Do you see it? He who does what is right is righteous
The Sheep are RIGHTEOUS!
Matthew 25:37
"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

Byzantine_Wolf The Sheep go to heaven NOT because they have Faith Alone… they go to heave because they are Righteous… “They Do Right”!
Byzantine_Wolf The Goats have “faith Alone” they end up in the; Lake of Fire! They lack “LOVE”!

Byzantine_Wolf Love DOES NOT…signify that we are truly among God’s people.
FACT…You MUST LOVE, as the Sheep! Faith ALONE… Faith By it’s self is a lie! Faith PLUS LOVE saves… not by Faith Alone!
Faith by self is “Action less”!
Dogknox

 

[AngloCatholic1]

There are just the three…“Faith, Hope & Love”!

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.** God is love**. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

IF…If you believe Jesus is “GOD”, then you will believe; “Man was saved by LOVE ALONE”!
IF…If you believe Jesus is a “DOOR”, then you will believe all must, enter through LOVE!
IF… If you believe "God is LOVE, then you will understand how a man with “Faith ALONE” is without Hope and LOVE!
IF…If you believe “God is LOVE” then you will understand that a man with “faith Alone” is without God… the man is>> “Godless”!

“Faith ALONE” takes LOVE out of salvation… It takes Jesus out of the salvation of mens souls! The Man made TRADITION of “faith ALONE” is “Anti-Christ” truly it had the hand of Satan in it’s formation!

Dogknox

Dogknox,

Your words are very strong, and I can see why you’re drawing criticism for being so harsh. That being said, I think I have to AGREE with your reasoning here. All one has to do is look-up the phrase “Faith alone” or “faith only” in a Bible search engine…and you will come up with only ONE verse of scripture…and that verse tells us that we are NOT to live by faith alone!

"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." - James 2:24

And no, this verse is NOT taken out of context. James is clearly telling us about Abraham who demonstrated his faith through WORKS. No wonder Luther wanted to remove the book of James from his Bible. I don’t think “antichrist” is too harsh a word here.

 

[dogknox]

Dogknox,

Your words are very strong, and I can see why you’re drawing criticism for being so harsh. That being said, I think I have to AGREE with your reasoning here. All one has to do is look-up the phrase “Faith alone” or “faith only” in a Bible search engine…and you will come up with only ONE verse of scripture…and that verse tells us that we are NOT to live by faith alone!
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." - James 2:24
And no, this verse is NOT taken out of context. James is clearly telling us about Abraham who demonstrated his faith through WORKS. No wonder Luther wanted to remove the book of James from his Bible. I don’t think “antichrist” is too harsh a word here.

Hello** AngloCatholic1** it is good to meet you… YES I agree with the scriptures also.
I like to add…
Eph 2:8-10 is not scripture proof of “faith Alone”! In CONTEXT.… It is proof, you are not saved by; “Circumcision”! verse #11 puts it into Context. Circumcision is a, "Work of the hands of men NOT their hearts!"
Not by works of the LAW, Not by Circumcision so that no one can boast!

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—

Dogknox

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

To dogknox:

I think you’ve shown in your response that you really do not understand the doctrine of sola fide. This may be due to misinformation given to you or simply an unintended lack of study, but we have issues we need to deal with.

You go at length about being righteous. No one who upholds sola fide, however, denies a righteous living. However, I might ask where righteousness comes from: is it saving faith that enables righteous acts, or is it righteous acts that enables saving faith?

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness [Rom 4:4-5; NASB]

The apostle Paul compares and contrasts two situations: (1) a person who works and for his working earns a living; (2) a person who does not work but instead believes in the God who justifies the ungodly. In the first situation, what the person earns is given to him not because of true merit, but because it is expect; ie., I get a paycheck at my job not because my boss cares about me in particular, but because I’ve worked to earn it and it is expected that I get a paycheck for it. In the second situation, no work is done and nothing is performed with an expectation, but rather the person simply has a belief in the God who justifies the ungodly. Note that God does not justify the godly nor the person trying to be godly, but the ungodly, for we are all, before saving faith, children of wrath by nature (cf. Eph 2:3).

Now let’s turn to the apostle John:

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. [1 John 2:3-6]

Note here: the faith is put in place first, the actions second. The beloved apostle says “by this we know that we have come to know Him,” and says this is “if we keep His commandments.” “Come to know” is past tense, “keep His commandments” is present. If a person does not do this, then that man is a liar and the truth (that is, Christ) is not in him. Again, later on in the section, the apostle states that “by this we know that we are in Him,” and the “this” is “the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.” We know a person has faith because of their works. The works are an outward showing of their faith.

As for James 2…well, the full context of that entire passage is important. The start of that section has James asking regarding faith that has no works: “Can that faith save him?” (Jam 2:14) Talking about those who say they have faith yet have nothing to show for it (something condemned by fellow apostle John, as we saw), James compares this to the fate of demons (Jam 2:19). He then goes into the example of Abraham, stating: “faith was working with his works,” and “as a result of the works, faith was perfected” (Jam 2:22). Again, the faith came first - the acts of righteousness were a confirmation of where these works came. Therefore, when James states famously “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone,” the “faith alone” is a faith with no outward sign of works. It is a supposed crop fit for harvest and yet bearing no fruits.

This isn’t the faith of sola fide. Sola fide deals with the saving faith, but it does not deny the works which stem from this faith.

 

[PLeeD]

Sola fide deals with the saving faith, but it does not deny the works which stem from this faith.

Why are lay Catholics so opposed to this idea? This is exactly what the Pope teaches in those two sermons that were linked earlier.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Greeks recognized four primary types of love. There was the love of country (patrios), the love of brothers(philos), the love of a man and woman for each other (eros), and the love of God for us (agape). This is the love that we are to imitate, knowing that as sinful and finite beings we will be unable to attain it.

I find it ironic that churches use Corinthians 13 in the marriage ceremony, when it is a celebration of the love of a man and woman (eros). Eros is necessary and good in its place, a finite relationship that, though it is (ideally) lifelong, still is a temporary one, to be replaced in Heaven with the perfect love of God.

We are in a covenantal relationship with God. We cannot be His equal (though there are those who dispute this statement in deed). Try as we might, our love for God or for each other is never selfless or perfect. It is for this reason that faith precedes agape in the idea of sola fide. This is not to deny agape, but to put it in perspective in our relationship to God.

 

[dogknox]

I think you’ve shown in your response that you really do not understand the doctrine of sola fide. This may be due to misinformation given to you or simply an unintended lack of study, but we have issues we need to deal with.

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness [Rom 4:4-5; NASB]

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. [1 John 2:3-6]

As for James 2…well, the full context of that entire passage is important. The start of that section has James asking regarding faith that has no works: “Can that faith save him?” (Jam 2:14) Talking about those who say they have faith yet have nothing to show for it (something condemned by fellow apostle John, as we saw), James compares this to the fate of demons (Jam 2:19). He then goes into the example of Abraham, stating: “faith was working with his works,” and “as a result of the works, faith was perfected” (Jam 2:22). Again, the faith came first - the acts of righteousness were a confirmation of where these works came.

This isn’t the faith of sola fide. Sola fide deals with the saving faith, but it does not deny the works which stem from this faith.
​

(I had to remove some of your words to make it under 6000)
Byzantine_Wolf You need to be corrected… You missed something…
1) You quote Romans 4:4-5 what you miss is this… “The WORKS” Romans is talking about is “Works of the LAW”… Circumcision is a Work of the LAW…The Mosaic LAW!
The Context is… Abraham was considered RIGHTEOUS before he was CIRCUMCISED!!!
Abraham was Righteous before the “WORK of the LAW”!
You are using Romans out of context!

2) You ask…

is it saving faith that enables righteous acts, or is it righteous acts that enables saving faith?

Both are WRONG…** THINK:** the Sheep and the Goats…
BOTH ask…:
“LORD WHEN, When did we GIVE you water/food etc”?
“LORD WHEN did we NOT GIVE you water/food etc”?
Both have Faith, both understand the authority and power of God!
The Sheep are "RIGHTEOUS" because they “GIVE from their heart”!

37"Then the** righteous** will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

These three verses above… Prove they GAVE without EXPECTING PAYMENT! They GAVE from their hearts… IT was LOVE that saved them! They go to heaven… “Read the whole parable Matt 25!”

The Goats have “Faith ALONE” they lack LOVE! They end up in the Lake of Fire! The Goats have ONLY Faith JUST Faith… Faith MUST be attached to LOVE! the LOVE does not prove the Faith; Love is NEEDED for salvation!
Faith ALONE is a lie… it is a Man made TRADITION that first appeared in the sixteenth century.

3) You say James must be taken in CONTEXT… yes you are right! Please do just that.
James is NOT giving the DEFINITION OF FAITH!! James is pointing out what True Faith is!

He then goes into the example of Abraham, stating: “faith was working with his works,” and “as a result of the works, faith was perfected” (Jam 2:22). Again, the faith came first - the acts of righteousness were a confirmation of where these works came. Therefore, when James states famously “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone,”** the “faith alone” is a faith with no outward sign of works**. It is a supposed crop fit for harvest and yet bearing no fruits.

True FAITH is** NOT** alone is the CONTEXT!
**James tells you…**True Faith MUST be accompanied with works…>>>“OF THE HEART”<<<! (With LOVE!)
The Goats have Faith ALONE!

Byzantine_Wolf Note these scriptures… (These must be denied to keep to the man made TRADITION of Faith ALONE!)
The breastplate of righteousness is made with LOVE! the man with Faith ALONE can’t put on the Breastplate!
1 Thessalonians 5:8
But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

Byzantine_Wolf God commands… “You MUST LOVE”! Do you understand the meaning of the word “MUST”?
John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

QUESTION: Do you need to keep the COMMANDS of God!?

Byzantine_Wolf You say.“Faith is proven by the works”! And what does God tell you below???
1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

QUESTION: Does God live in the Man with “Faith ALONE”? Do you NEED LOVE or is God just proof of faith!
QUESTION: If a person has God inside… does he have LOVE inside or just, “faith ALONE”?
​

 

[Publisher]

1 Corinthians 13:13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Footnote:
In speaking of love, Paul is led by spontaneous association to mention faith and hope as well. They are already a well-known triad, three interrelated features of Christian life, more fundamental than any particular charism. The greatest . . . is love: love is operative even within the other members of the triad, so that it has a certain primacy among them. Or, if the perspective is temporal, love will remain even when faith has yielded to sight and hope to possession.

LINK

The last verse is based on all the previous verses in this chapter…“love” is not a sentimental warm feeling…it is “doing”…one may know all mysteries…and move mountains…and speak in heavenly languages…but if their behavior is rude, obnoxious, puffed up, hateful etc…if their character is not guided by love toward one’s brother…in deed not only in word…it is all like “tinkling brass and clanging bells”…“it avails nothing”.

True faith WILL ALWAYS be exemplified in a life lived in grace, mercy, compassion. The “Fruit of the Spirit” spoken of in a different letter is the “in your face” EVIDENCE of a life lived in love and faith… “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control”

The last verse of 1 Cor 13…is not an isolated verse that one can form a belief about “faith”.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

To dogknox:

With all due respect, did you read my post? You continually argued things that I already addressed.

In regards to your response to my use of Romans 4, I have no doubt that Paul is talking about works of the Law, but that is precisely the point - Paul is talking about a works-based mentality. Now, what is the antithesis that Paul introduces? Again, let’s review: “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.” The person in Romans 4:5 is not doing anything but believing in He who justifies the ungodly. The person in Romans 4:5 is an ungodly person turning to Him who alone can justify Him - not any works, be it of the law or by another code - but by He who gives righteousness.

Now with the sheep and the goats, you say: “Both have Faith, both understand the authority and power of God! The Sheep are ‘RIGHTEOUS’ because they ‘GIVE from their heart’!” That was the whole point of my response. I differentiated between an empty faith and a faith shown by its fruits. It isn’t good fruit that makes a good tree, it’s a good tree that makes good fruit (Matt 7:17-19). As the apostle John said, we know a person is righteous because of the works they do.

In this regard, that was also my point in the reference to the second chapter of James. The “faith alone” James is speaking about is not sola fide, because sola fide is not empty faith that even the demons have. “Faith alone” simply means that the saving faith in Christ is that which saves us, but from that faith comes works. You can keep repeating the argument that sola fide is empty faith, but you do so out of disrespect for the other side which has corrected your argument.

 

[JonNC]

Byzantine_Wolf It is good to meet you…I also point you to scriptures…
The Sheep and the Goats… BOTH have Faith… Both say the exact same things…“LORD WHEN DID WE”?
Sheep “Lord When did we GIVE YOU water/ food etc”?
Goats…“Lord when did we NOT GIVE YOU water/food etc”?
Both… Both have “FAITH”! But the Goats have “Faith ALONE” they lack love!
Love is to: “GIVE from the heart”!
The Sheep are RIGHTEOUS… to be Righteous you MUST Do Right!

1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

Byzantine_Wolf Do you see it? He who does what is right is righteous
The Sheep are RIGHTEOUS!
Matthew 25:37
"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

Byzantine_Wolf The Sheep go to heaven NOT because they have Faith Alone… they go to heave because they are Righteous… “They Do Right”!
Byzantine_Wolf The Goats have “faith Alone” they end up in the; Lake of Fire! They lack “LOVE”!

Byzantine_Wolf Love DOES NOT…signify that we are truly among God’s people.
FACT…You MUST LOVE, as the Sheep! Faith ALONE… Faith By it’s self is a lie! Faith PLUS LOVE saves… not by Faith Alone!
Faith by self is “Action less”!
Dogknox

Why are you under the impression that sola fide excludes love?

Jon

 

[dogknox]

To dogknox:

With all due respect, did you read my post? You continually argued things that I already addressed.

Now with the sheep and the goats, you say: “Both have Faith, both understand the authority and power of God! The Sheep are ‘RIGHTEOUS’ because they ‘GIVE from their heart’!” That was the whole point of my response. I differentiated between an empty faith and a faith shown by its fruits. It isn’t good fruit that makes a good tree, it’s a good tree that makes good fruit (Matt 7:17-19). As the apostle John said, we know a person is righteous because of the works they do.

In this regard, that was also my point in the reference to the second chapter of James. The “faith alone” James is speaking about is not sola fide, because sola fide is not empty faith that even the demons have.** “Faith alone” simply means that the saving faith in Christ is that which saves us, but from that faith comes works. You can keep repeating the argument that sola fide** is empty faith, but you do so out of disrespect for the other side which has corrected your argument.

You said…

**“Faith alone” simply means that the saving faith in Christ is that which saves us, **but from that faith comes works. You can keep repeating the argument that sola fide is empty faith, but you do so out of disrespect for the other side which has corrected your argument.

I reply starting with this…“Faith ALONE” is an Man made TRADITION!
Until the sixteen hundreds, “Faith ALONE” was never heard of or discussed!
YES you have address things already, but to do so you have to reject the scriptures…

**Byzantine_Wolf **Jesus died for ALL MEN… but all men are not saved! How come??
It can’t be something that Jesus did or does that keeps them out of heaven… IT MUST be… It has to be, something that man does or does NOT do, that keeps them away from salvation!
Abraham was considered RIGHTEOUS for what he did!
The Sheep enter heaven because of what they did!
The Goats have faith Jesus died for them… They have ZERO LOVE! The Goats go to the lake of fire because they have “faith ALONE”! They have Faith in the Christ!! There faith was NOT mated with their LOVE!

Man can’t be saved by “Faith in Christ…ALONE!”
**Jesus said… **“PICK UP your cross and Follow”! The Goats refused to Pick up anything… The Goats had Faith ALONE!

Jesus said… “I COMMAND you… You MUST LOVE!” The Sheep had LOVE!

Jesus said… “Woman are SAVED by Childbearing”! Are you saying giving birth is not a work of LOVE, it is just done by the womans faith? No work on her part, just, “her faith ALONE”?!

Are you saying; “GIVING of SELF in the marriage bed”… is only an act of FAITH and new life comes from; “faith ALONE” minus all love!???

Are you saying; The Breastplate of RIGHTEOUSNESS is made with “faith ALONE”! Can the man with, “Faith ALONE” put on the breastplate!? Please show me the scriptures.

Do you reject…
1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

He who does what is right is righteous… You can’t do anything with only FAITH… Faith is ACTION-LESS!
To do RIGHT you must “DO Something”; You can’t be RIGHTEOUS with Faith alone! You can’t DO RIGHT if all you have is Faith in the saving work of Christ…
**Byzantine_Wolf ** Christ commands us to WORK. He is still working, so we also must WORK out our salvation, with Jesus!

Your words…

** “But to the one who does not work,** but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.” The person in Romans 4:5** is not doing anything but believing** in He who justifies the ungodly.

I reply: You are WRONG! Abraham was NOT sitting on his hands! He was willing to offer up his son because God asked him to prove his faith! His Faith was NOT alone it was combined with ACTIONS! He had his knife raised against his son
Genesis 22:12
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Byzantine_Wolf ** Was Abraham’s faith ALONE? HOW does God KNOW Abraham fears God? Because** how? What was God looking for from Abraham… was it his Faith ONLY?! Or was he wanting ACTIONS combined with his FAITH! Was God looking for “Faith PLUS LOVE!”? (be honest)
Dogknox

 

[JonNC]

=

dogknox;7180355]You said…
I reply starting with this…“Faith ALONE” is an Man made TRADITION!
Until the sixteen hundreds, “Faith ALONE” was never heard of or discussed!

Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”).

Just one.
Jon

 

[dogknox]

Why are you under the impression that sola fide excludes love?
Jon

Hello JonNC It is good to meet you…
You asked.

Why are you under the impression that sola fide excludes love?

**I reply… **Good question… The scriptures answer…
There are just the Three… “Faith Hope & LOVE”!
JonNC QUESTION… Can a man with Faith ALONE have Hope and or LOVE?
LOGIC says… If you are with faith ALONE then you have NO Hope or LOVE!
LOGIC says… “IF you are outside you can’t be INSIDE at the same time!”

JonNC with all respect… Scripture is clear… “God is LOVE”!
The man with Faith and only faith, is without all hope and LOVE… he is God-less!

**FACT: **The idea of “faith ALONE” is a man made TRADITION it first appeared in the sixteenth century. The scriptures are clear… “God gave the world his command to LOVE!” God said…“You MUST LOVE”!
Question if you MUST LOVE, can the person with Faith and ONLY faith, be keeping the COMMAND of the King!?? (be honest)

JonNC Think about it… If you are saved by your faith ALONE then, you are effectively leaving “God out of your salvation!” God IS LOVE… there are only the three (3)!
Leaving God out of salvation is; “Anti-Christ!”

With all respect….(how else can I put it?) If you believe; Jesus is God then you are saved by “Love Alone”! You will enter “THROUGH LOVE”!
IF you believe the scriptures you will understand… Faith and Hope are not needed in heaven… the man with “Faith ALONE” will not enter! Only LOVE will last forever!

Faith by it’s self is NOT scriptural it it is NOT Logical!

 

[dogknox]

=
Although it can be said that God’s commandments**** pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”)

Just one.
Jon

Hello… And Augustine was a Catholic BISHOP! He believed in “bread and Wine becoming the Flesh and Blood of Jesus!” He believed in Confession to a Priest. He believed in Salvation through Baptism! etc

Faith WITH LOVE!
Catholic’s do NOT say faith is NOT important… they rightfully point out… Faith CAN’T be ALONE it must have actions… which works through love.
“A new **COMMAND **I give you…LOVE one another”!