Faith Alone

[PLeeD]

Is there something unclear or nonsensical about my question?

 

[JonNC]

=dogknox;7185017]JonNC
YES all people are SAVED by GRACE… but they are NOT JUSTIFIED by grace!
You MUST “DO”!! You MUST have ACTIONS, to be JUSTIFIED!

Not justified by grace???
That’s not what the JDDJ says, but I agree that an active faith is required.

I reply… You are a little mixed up…I point out.… “If you work for someone you get paid!” If you do work you earn a wage… you work you get paid, it is just that simple!
If you “GIVE” then you are NOT expecting payment!
Example: You GIVE a birthday GIFT… as soon as your Gift is opened do you hold out your hand and demand the COST of your “GIFT”?!!

No does the given say before I give you this give, you must do thus and such. If so, it is not a gift. Were you baptized as an infant? I was, and I don’t recall the requirement to work in order to receive the sacrament, this sacrament which “now saves you”.

The Sheep and the Goats

Matthew 25:31
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Notice who the good works are for: our neighbors. God doesn’t need our good works, the least of His children do. But more importantly, as I’ve said before, Lutherans do not deny the importants, the necessity of good works.

JonNC The Sheep “GIVE” they are NOT working! The Sheep go to heaven because of their ACTIONS of GIVING!! They have Faith PLUS GIVING, not faith ALONE!
JonNC The Sheep did not even know they were** GIVING **to Jesus, so you can’t accuse them of, EXPECTING reward! Proven by the fact they ask…“WHEN… When did we GIVE You!”?

EXACTLY. They did good works, not under the threat of the law, but with a joyful, loving heart. But again, you mischaracterize faith alone.

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38** When** did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

JonNC Do you see it? the Sheep are** RIGHTEOUS**! They are “RIGHTEOUS because they DO RIGHT!”

They do right, they growe in grace and righteousness, because they have faith, a living active faith.

The Goats have Faith ALONE they also say, “LORD when did we” just as the Sheep did they are the exact same as the Sheep when it comes to their Faith! What separated them from salvation and the lake of fire was their ACTIONS!
The Sheep had ACTIONS from their HEARTS!
the Goats were Action-less… they had “faith Alone”!

No, they have a dead faith, as James says. And again, you prove a lack of understanding of what sola fide is.

YES as above… "Saved by Grace through Faith WORKING in LOVE! Not … cannot be by only Faith! If the person has, “Faith ALONE” then he is ACTION-Less as the Goats!

Only in your lack of understanding of what sola fide is. Those who do not do His commands have a dead faith, not a living, active, saving faith.

I reply.. YES 100 % right… and he CAN’T pick up his cross with Faith ALONE!
The man needs Faith PLUS>> ALSO<< Actions from the heart!
Faith ALONE is a LIE!

If a protestant claims that Catholics worship the Blessed Virgin, it is often out of ignorance of what veneration really is. If, after it has been explained, he continues to accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary, then it is no longer ignorance, but disingenuous.
I have explained more than once in response to your posts, that sola fide is not an exclusion of love and hope, nor an exclusion of action, yet you persist in misrepresenting, just like that protestant who continues to claim that Catholics practice idolatry even after facts to the contrary are presented.
I suspect, for charity’s sake, I should end my conversation with you, with just a couple of brief responses.

Catholic’s are NOT against the idea of the importances of faith… we agree, Faith is very important… it is NOT, it cannot be ALONE! Faith MUST have, it NEEDS to have, Love attached! It can’t be ALONE!

Correct.

The sense of community and of corporate religion was the victim of Martin Luther. No intermediaries—no priests, sacraments, or saints—are needed.

You clearly have little knowledge of Lutheranism.

The Protestant rejects, the Sacraments as a means of receiving Grace Because of Martin Luther; at most Sacraments could be, “ordinances” to symbolize a favor already received.

And this proves what I just wrote above.

Peace,
Jon

 

[dogknox]

I made this point in another thread, but no one responded to it. Please tell me what you think of this.

Say you have just become justified. Consider that to mean whatever you think it could or should mean. You have just this instant found salvation in Jesus Christ through faith in Him.
Now before anything else happens, a bomb goes off and you are killed. You had no time to even think about good works, let alone do any.
Are you saved and on your way to heaven despite a lack of having accomplished any good works?

Hello PLeeD Good to meet you…
You ask a good question… And the answer is thus…

There is a man born in China in the second century… Never, ever having heard of Jesus the bible or the resurrection!
PLeeD This Chinaman… Travels up and down the river, ten miles each way in his “Junk”, he “LOVES his family, he even give fish to the widow living by the river”!
He dies, does he spend eternity with Satan and his demons?

1 John 4:16
We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love.God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.

PLeeD "God IS Love"! Would God put himself into the lake of fire if he is IN a man’s heart!?
Question… If a person has “LOVE inside”, do they have God inside?
1)
Matthew 5:8
God blesses those whose hearts are pure,for they will see God.
2)
Matthew 9:4
Jesus knew what they were thinking, so he asked them, “Why do you have such evil thoughts in your hearts?
3)
Matthew 12:34
You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say.
4)
Matthew 15:8
‘These people honor me with their lips,but their hearts are far from me.
6)
Matthew 23:28
Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.
etc
etc
PLeeD
QUESTION: Can God see into each mans HEART?!
QUESTION: Does God JUDGE each man by what he finds in their HEARTS?

ALL<< who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.

Dogknox

 

[AngloCatholic1]

I think the KEY to this whole debate can be summed up in a beautiful statement that my high school Physics teacher had posted on a sign at the front of the lab room. It read:

I hear, and I forget;
I see, and I remember;
I DO, and I UNDERSTAND.

Beautiful, short and sweet…and SO TRUE! I think it is entirely appropriate to understanding Christianity as well as Physics…for JESUS DID.

We MUST DO also.

Amen.

(By the way, the ONLY reason I REMEMBER that sign is beause he posted in the lab and I SAW it daily!)

 

[Oldtimer_7]

I think that one thing that makes this discussion so tricky is that Catholic and Lutheran positions are so similar that it is like trying to decide if that angel is dancing or just trying to get through the crowd on the head of the pin. I would like for some of the Baptist, Pentacostal, and other members to join us in this discussion.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Children…

 

[dogknox]

I think that one thing that makes this discussion so tricky is that Catholic and Lutheran positions are so similar that it is like trying to decide if that angel is dancing or just trying to get through the crowd on the head of the pin. I would like for some of the Baptist, Pentacostal, and other members to join us in this discussion.

Hello Oldtimer_7 I hope all is well.
I point out, this is the Catholic position. Both works from the council must be read together.

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. VIII
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, “without which it is impossible to please God” and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, “if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,” as the Apostle says, “grace is no more grace.”

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. XVI
Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: “Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name”; and “Do not lose confidence, which hath a great reward.” Hence, to those who work well “unto the end” and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself,** to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.**

I point out.. The Lords Prayer was taught to the Apostles, people who had already received GRACE!
The words of God>>>14 “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
15 But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Verse 14… Forgiving Is a type of work… Forgiving others, “SAVES the forgiver!”
Even the saved can loose salvation…verse #15… “Not forgiving others, will loose the man with faith ALONE, his salvation”! Faith PLUS Good works save… Not faith ALONE, the Apostles had faith… but they needed to forgive also!!

 

[PLeeD]

Hello PLeeD Good to meet you…
You ask a good question… And the answer is thus…

There is a man born in China in the second century… Never, ever having heard of Jesus the bible or the resurrection!
PLeeD This Chinaman… Travels up and down the river, ten miles each way in his “Junk”, he “LOVES his family, he even give fish to the widow living by the river”!
He dies, does he spend eternity with Satan and his demons?

You and I don’t know the answer to that question. With God, anything is possible.

ALL<< who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.

So you answer yes? The person in my example goes to heaven? That is the sense in which we are saved by “faith alone”. Good works are a consequence of loving faith that saves.

 

[dogknox]

PLeeD I asked: He dies, does he spend eternity with Satan and his demons?

You rightfully replied…

You and I don’t know the answer to that question. With God, anything is possible.

YES you are right… only God can see into a mans heart and God judges each by the Love he finds or does NOT Find!

I pointed to scriptures… and this particular verse…>>ALL<< who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.

You replied…

So you answer yes? The person in my example goes to heaven? That is the sense in which we are saved by “faith alone”. Good works are a consequence of loving faith that saves.

Now you ask… another good question… I reply… NO “GOOD WORKS” are NOT A consequence of FAITH Alone! They truly are a consequence of LOVE!
So; Good works are a consequence of loving “PLUS ALSO” faith And the both is what saves.

Note, there are JUST the three…(3) “Faith, Hope & Love”!
God is LOVE all men need God inside to enter heaven! So Faith ALONE… Faith by self is Love-less or God-Less!

Note the Sheep and the Goats… Both have Faith… Both say the exact same… “LORD; When did we Give/Not Give to you”?

The Sheep are righteous… they go to heaven because, of their actions of Love, they were separated from the Goats by what they did, not by their faith!
Faith was not the question … It was their ACTIONS or Lack of action!
The Goats are sent to the Lake of Fire with Satan because, of their Inactions…NO Action"!
Both had FAITH, the Faith of the Goats was ALONE, it was not combined with God!!

Note yet again…God is LOVE!
They are three… Separated! Does Hope give Faith? Does Hope give LOVE? Does Love give Faith? Does Love give Hope? Does faith Give Hope or does Faith Give Love?
NO NO NO.
Each can be held separately or all together! Hope and Faith can go together without love!

The Goats are an example of Faith that did not trigger love to happen! The Goats are an example below…
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?