Faith Alone?

[pnewton]

When we start talking about faith alone as, well not really faith alone, but faith (which produces works of charity) alone I can understand why Christ had to leave behind a Church as authority.

I can also understand why the Catholic Church and the Lutherans were able to issue a joint statement on justification. If you change the terms enough it might take 500 years to realize you are saying the same thing.

Absolutely we can never be saved apart from the grace of God. But to obstinately refuse to live the life that grace demands can damn us.

 

[martino]

Kevan:

Oh, be serious!

Just because a bunch of Protestants didn’t jump in doesn’t say anything about whether they’ve worked on the issue for the past 500 years.

Elsewhere on the forums, I forget where, I saw some objection to the Protestant distinction between “faith alone” and “faith that is alone.” The difference is very real and should help Catholics to understand the Protestant position. If you don’t see the difference, stare at it until you do.

MariaG, who is Catholic, stated it precisely when she wrote “Catholic Christians (or any others) do not earn their way to heaven. However, if there are no ‘works’ in your life, your faith is dead.” I cannot say how well her words agree with the Magisterium, but they do agree completely with Evangelical views of “faith alone.”

Although Protestants may not live up to the doctrine, that is still the doctrine.

Ok I will bite on that! You say that Protestants believe not so much in “faith alone” but rather “faith that is alone”. I have 2 questions for you; 1. Does “faith that is alone” include or exclude works? 2. Is “faith alone” a term originated by Catholics or Protestants?

 

[Pax]

Kevan:

Oh, be serious!

Just because a bunch of Protestants didn’t jump in doesn’t say anything about whether they’ve worked on the issue for the past 500 years.

Elsewhere on the forums, I forget where, I saw some objection to the Protestant distinction between “faith alone” and “faith that is alone.” The difference is very real and should help Catholics to understand the Protestant position. If you don’t see the difference, stare at it until you do.

MariaG, who is Catholic, stated it precisely when she wrote “Catholic Christians (or any others) do not earn their way to heaven. However, if there are no ‘works’ in your life, your faith is dead.” I cannot say how well her words agree with the Magisterium, but they do agree completely with Evangelical views of “faith alone.”

Although Protestants may not live up to the doctrine, that is still the doctrine.

Kevin,

Your point is well taken concerning Protestants not having jumped into this thread. However, it should be noted that when Catholics say that we are “not saved by faith alone” they are following scripture as stated by James. When Protestants say “faith alone” they are contradicting scripture. When Protestants then say, “faith is not alone” they are still avoiding the clear words of scripture. They realize that without this latter qualification they cannot even begin to approach the teaching of James. This is, obviously, problematic because it creates an end run around the clear teaching of scripture and allows them to “justify” [pun intended] there position of being saved by faith alone. To concede to the correct wording used by the apostle, James, would undo their understandings of justification. If they abandoned that position “sola scriptura” will also crumble. While I respect the efforts of many Evangelicals to correct certain gross errors concerning Protestant teachings on justification, I don’t see how the statement “faith is not alone” is sufficient in light of scripture.

 

[Count_Chocula]

SP38:

The Book of James is an outline of how a follower of Christ is to live out that faith. (ie., practical Christian living.) The devoted service for others is the outcome and proof of faith. It is a consequence of being a follower of Christ. It is not a means of gaining entrance into heaven. For if it were, we could once again work our way there and Christ’s suffering, death and resurrection would be for nothing.
You cannot DO enough or BE GOOD enough to gain entrance into the place where the Father demands perfection.

We do things listed in James because we want please God.
We gain entrance to heaven because Jesus is our ticket. Paid in full with his Blood.

Why did Jesus come? “…That He would bring us to God.”
1Peter3:18

True, and it is not the Catholic argument that you can “buy” your way into heaven. The Catholic church will and does and always has recognized the import of faith. But the Bible clearly states that works count for something. So to believe that your works are meaningless is futile.

Our works will be test with fire right? (1 Cor. 3)

Wether you believe this to be proof of purgatory or not, the Bible is still adamant about your works being tested… so why would God test something that doesn’t matter?

Claiming Faith alone turns Christianity in a yes/no, situation.

 

[Count_Chocula]

pnewton:

By the way “faith alone” does appear in the Bible (the book of James). Everyone should look it up. James 2:24

Yes and it is preceded by “not by” making the verse,

“See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.”
James 2:24 NAB

So to deny the import of faith is to denounce scripture and Christ, to deny the import of works is to do the same.

 

[Zski01]

Count Chocula:

Yes and it is preceded by “not by” making the verse,

“See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.”
James 2:24 NAB

So to deny the import of faith is to denounce scripture and Christ, to deny the import of works is to do the same.

FYI: Reformed Protestants interpret James 2:24 as how we “see” justification in others: we see their works, not their faith, because they are saved by Faith Alone. Luther got around this verse by denying the entire Epistle of James as canonical and calling it an “epistle of straw.”

I’m not advocating that view, but just so you know, that’s how 99% of Reformed Protestants view that verse.

Protestants claim that we are saved by Grace Alone (as do we) and that if we admit that works play into justification, we are advocating an incomplete sacrifice by Christ and that we somehow “merit” salvation. We, as Catholics, know that we don’t think that we merit anything, but that is where they see the fundamental divide.

Luther said the church “stands or falls” on the issue of faith alone (implying of course we “papists” are non-Christians). I think the Church stands or falls on the issue of grace alone, understanding salvation is totally unmerited, and solely possible by God’s mercy in allowing us to be justified by following Christ alone.

 

[pnewton]

Sidenote: Even faith itself is a grace. " By grace are we saved, through faith and that not of itself. It is a gift of God."
**
Everything is grace! I would break into song, Amazing Grace, but I know how Karl Keating feels about it.

 

[Apolonio]

What biblical prove do we have that faith alone is wrong.

Response:
The term “faith alone” isn’t wrong. That is one point of which I disagree with Sungenis in his book. The term “faith alone” was used by the Church Fathers and Aquinas.

 

[Pax]

Apolonio:

What biblical prove do we have that faith alone is wrong.

Response:
The term “faith alone” isn’t wrong. That is one point of which I disagree with Sungenis in his book. The term “faith alone” was used by the Church Fathers and Aquinas.

Please give citations and/or complete quotes with context from these sources. I have never read anything by Aquinas or the Church fathers that in any way suggests the correctness of Protestant teaching on “salvation by faith alone.”

 

[Kevan]

martino:

Ok I will bite on that! You say that Protestants believe not so much in “faith alone” but rather “faith that is alone”. I have 2 questions for you; 1. Does “faith that is alone” include or exclude works? 2. Is “faith alone” a term originated by Catholics or Protestants?

Well, you got it backwards, but maybe that’s my fault. We DON"T believe in “faith that is alone.” That would be faith that doesn’t produce works, which St. James tells us is a dead faith.

One commonly hears the cliche “I believe in faith alone, but I don’t believe in faith that IS alone.” The word “alone” applies to two different things. In the first, it refers to the path to salvation. In the second it refers to the results of salvation. God saves us “unto good works.”

I think that answers what you were asking about.

 

[Kevan]

Pax:

While I respect the efforts of many Evangelicals to correct certain gross errors concerning Protestant teachings on justification, I don’t see how the statement “faith is not alone” is sufficient in light of scripture.

Far be it from me to come on a Catholic web site and try to overthrow Trent. The dispute is old, and better minds than mine have filled bookshelves on both sides of the question. I’m just hoping to clarify the Protestant side as one who has lived deep in the belly of the beast, and understands its fine shades of emphasis. I will leave the settling of this old contest to those who feel more confident of success than I.

But I would like to point out what I think is a small misconception in the words I have quoted in the box above. Speaking of the distinction under discussion, faith alone and faith that is not alone, you describe it as an effort to correct certain errors. Actually it is basic to Protestantism, and predates the errors it can correct. As I stated in an earlier post, the antinomian idea that one can live in sin and go to Heaven is relatively modern in Protestantism, but the idea that true faith produces good works has been with most of us since the beginning.

 

[martino]

Kevan:

Well, you got it backwards, but maybe that’s my fault. We DON"T believe in “faith that is alone.” That would be faith that doesn’t produce works, which St. James tells us is a dead faith.

One commonly hears the cliche “I believe in faith alone, but I don’t believe in faith that IS alone.” The word “alone” applies to two different things. In the first, it refers to the path to salvation. In the second it refers to the results of salvation. God saves us "unto good works."I think that answers what you were asking about.

Yep, totally got you backwards on that, let me sort that out and get back to you!

 

[Pax]

Zski01:

FYI: Reformed Protestants interpret James 2:24 as how we “see” justification in others: we see their works, not their faith, because they are saved by Faith Alone.

.

This is an understanding that has also been presented to me by what I consider to be well informed Protestants. This understanding, however, is problematic in that James never mentions justification in the way described. He never even hints that he means something like “justification before men.” Instead, James talks about justification in the same sense that Paul does, and he uses Abraham as his example. Paul also uses Abraham’s faith as an example in explaining justification.

The term “faith is not alone” is not a term coined in the Reformation. If I’m not mistaken, this a term coined by R.C. Sproul. If I’ve misquoted him, even slightly, or have attributed this to him in error then I apologize. Maybe someone else could shed some more light on this term and its origins.

 

[Kevan]

Pax:

He never even hints that he means something like “justification before men.” Instead, James talks about justification in the same sense that Paul does, and he uses Abraham as his example. Paul also uses Abraham’s faith as an example in explaining justification.

I think that they get it from Ro 4:2 “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”

The term “faith is not alone” is not a term coined in the Reformation. If I’m not mistaken, this a term coined by R.C. Sproul.

I’ve heard it since the '60s. Although R. C. was around then, I’d never heard of him. It’s just a catchy way of saying that saving faith produces a changed life, which has been prominently taught in Protestantism at least since Spener’s pietist movement. I’d be surprised if I couldn’t dig it up in Luther and Calvin, too. John Wesley, leader of Methodism in the 18th century, was converted while hearing a speaker reading from the Preface of Luther’s commentary on Romans, where Luther describes "the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ. " Changed heart=changed life. Old idea; nothing fancy.

 

[Pax]

Kevan,

Thanks for the insight.

 

[reen12]

Oh, boy, my favorite topic!

To me, Catholics often seem hag-ridden over the concept of
“works.” It often seems to me that many Catholics think
that their salvation is somehow up to them, when, in fact,
our salvation is won, and accepting Jesus as Savior
opens the door to personal salvation. The works that
flow from a Christian, then, are an expression of gratitude
and obedience to a Savior Who has already redeemed us.

So, the false “quarrel” is between faith and works.
The genuine quarrel then, is between faith and obedience.

I mean, you can’t go around saying: Jesus is my personal
Savior, I’m saved, and then go out and lose the mortgage
payment in a card game, stop and pick up a blue video
on the way home and constantly ignore the needy.
Well, I mean, you *can *do those things on a regular
basis, but the “I never knew you” looms in the future.

Kindest regards,
reen12

 

[SP38]

reen12:

Oh, boy, my favorite topic!

To me, Catholics often seem hag-ridden over the concept of
“works.” It often seems to me that many Catholics think
that their salvation is somehow up to them, when, in fact,
our salvation is won, and accepting Jesus as Savior
opens the door to personal salvation. The works that
flow from a Christian, then, are an expression of gratitude
and obedience to a Savior Who has already redeemed us.

So, the false “quarrel” is between faith and works.
The genuine quarrel then, is between faith and obedience.

I mean, you can’t go around saying: Jesus is my personal
Savior, I’m saved, and then go out and lose the mortgage
payment in a card game, stop and pick up a blue video
on the way home and constantly ignore the needy.
Well, I mean, you *can *do those things on a regular
basis, but the “I never knew you” looms in the future.

Kindest regards,
reen12

Could doing “good works” also be considered “storing up treasure in heaven?”

 

[Apolonio]

Please give citations and/or complete quotes with context from these sources.

Response:
Before I give the quote, let me just say that I did not say that the term “faith alone” was taught by the Fathers or Aquinas like the Protestants did. Luther said that an unformed faith can be alone and it will still justify (Commentary on Galatians). The Church Fathers and Aquinas used the term faith alone, but in a Catholic sense. For example, John Chrysostom says:

“By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith.” See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the “law of faith?” It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only." (Homilies on Romans, VII, v. 27)

"They said that he who kept not the Law was cursed, but he proves that he who kept it was cursed, and he who kept it not, blessed. Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone is blessed. " (John Chrysostom, Commentary on Galatians, III, v. 8)

“This was forgiven by Christ through faith, because the Law could not yield, for faith alone justifies.” (Hilary, on Matthew 9)

“For justification, faith alone in love is necessary. For faith must be fortified with brotherly love for the perfection of the believer.” (Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Galatians 5:6)

 

[pnewton]

reen12:

Oh, boy, my favorite topic!

… and accepting Jesus as Savior
opens the door to personal salvation.

You are so right that he must never think we can earn our salvation and that we must have a personal relationship to Jesus.

Remember also that as Catholics we believe that our entrance into the life of grace is baptism, as in “baptism now saves you.”

Of course many other non-Catholic Christians also hold this belief.

 

[Pax]

Apolonio,

Okay, I see where you’re come from. I would add a couple of things to this. It’s important to note that what might be called the law of faith includes many things. One of these is “obedience.” The apostle, Paul, begins the book of Romans with the term “obedience of faith.” He speaks of obedience again in the middle of Romans, and mentions the obedience of faith again at the end of Romans.

As far as the law is concerned, it is important to note that Paul says that we must uphold the law and be doers of the law. Paul’s argument about faith and the law concerns where one places their faith. Paul teaches us that the Law in and of itself does not save us. It does not have that power. Grace, on the other hand, has the power to save us through the merits of Jesus Christ. This is clearly pointed out in Romans 9:31-32 where Paul says, “Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on the law did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works” In other words, to succeed in fulfilling the law we must pursuit through faith, and faith is a supernatural gift/grace from God.