Faith Alone?

[spedteacherita]

What does your tradition believe as to what happens to one’s soul after death if they walk away from God due to unrepentant and habitual sin?

Aidanbradypop can surely speak for himself but I wanted to give you my perspective on this.

We are sinners - all of us. We have sins of omission and comission - those that we don’t realize and those we do. I am overweight - this is a sin of comission on my part and I am contrite about it but I still fall back into this sin - as you said a “habitual sin.” Do I want to do this? No but I fall often. This is true for all my sins - those that I know and those that I don’t know.

Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was for all of my sins. All mankind’s sins! He now is our Advocate…like a lawyer…He pleads to God on our behalf. God sees us through Jesus, our Advocate, and does not see a fallen person but one who has been “rescued” by Christ. God’s plan was to rescue us with the death and resurrection of His son -

So, if I were to die tomorrow, I have faith that Christ continues to intercede for me for those sins I continue because I am repentant of them and I continually confess them.

This does not mean that I can go out and feel free to sin over and over again. That’ is not repentance.

I hope this helps a bit. If you need clarifying please let me know - I do deal with issues that make it very hard for me to be comprehensive in my explanations.

God bless!!

Rita

 

[aidanbradypop]

What does your tradition believe as to what happens to one’s soul after death if they walk away from God due to unrepentant and habitual sin?

I tend not to judge the soul of someone. My faith tradition teaches that as long as one remains faithful to Christ, lives a holy and Christian life, there salvation is secure with the blood of Jesus Christ. If one turns away from such faith, they would need to repent of their sins in order for the faith to be restored.

 

[Denise1957]

I tend not to judge the soul of someone. My faith tradition teaches that as long as one remains faithful to Christ, lives a holy and Christian life, there salvation is secure with the blood of Jesus Christ. If one turns away from such faith, they would need to repent of their sins in order for the faith to be restored.

So your tradition doesn’t have any teaching as to what happens to one’s soul after death, if they turn away from God due to sin? I’m not asking that you judge anyone. I’m asking about what your tradition teaches (or doesn’t teach).

 

[rfournier103]

Are we debating this again?

What exactly are the faithful to be judged on when we meet the LORD on Judgment Day? How much faith we had…?

So…

We can murder. commit adultery, covet our neighbor’s wife & property, not keep the LORD’s Day holy, worship false gods, steal, bear false witness, and not honor our father & mother - BUT STILL BE ASSURED OF SALVATION BECAUSE WE HAVE “FAITH”???

Oy…

 

[aidanbradypop]

So your tradition doesn’t have any teaching as to what happens to one’s soul after death, if they turn away from God due to sin? I’m not asking that you judge anyone. I’m asking about what your tradition teaches (or doesn’t teach).

If they walk away from their faith and do not repent of sin then they will not enter the Kingdom of God

 

[Denise1957]

If they walk away from their faith and do not repent of sin then they will not enter the Kingdom of God

Thanks…is this a teaching of your church?

 

[Denise1957]

Aidanbradypop can surely speak for himself but I wanted to give you my perspective on this.

We are sinners - all of us. We have sins of omission and comission - those that we don’t realize and those we do. I am overweight - this is a sin of comission on my part and I am contrite about it but I still fall back into this sin - as you said a “habitual sin.” Do I want to do this? No but I fall often. This is true for all my sins - those that I know and those that I don’t know.

Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was for all of my sins. All mankind’s sins! He now is our Advocate…like a lawyer…He pleads to God on our behalf. God sees us through Jesus, our Advocate, and does not see a fallen person but one who has been “rescued” by Christ. God’s plan was to rescue us with the death and resurrection of His son -

So, if I were to die tomorrow, I have faith that Christ continues to intercede for me for those sins I continue because I am repentant of them and I continually confess them.

This does not mean that I can go out and feel free to sin over and over again. That’ is not repentance.

I hope this helps a bit. If you need clarifying please let me know - I do deal with issues that make it very hard for me to be comprehensive in my explanations.

God bless!!

Rita

Thanks for the info. Is the above your own personal take, or is it from what your church teaches? (You’re doing a great job of explaining your views, btw).

 

[Vanez]

Post above is written: if we remain faithful and live a holy, Christian life >> living a Christian life is?? Love thy enemies, do what the Lord said, etc, right? Little do they know that this means work!

I see enough Christians who said they believe in Jesus and have faith in Him, but don’t actually follow Him. I’m sorry, i don’t mean to mock as i’m also a sinner and don’t always live a Christian life, faith is a gift, God’s grace is a gift. For me, it’s better to consider faith + works. Works here I meant following what He said. Faith without works is dead. Showing we love Jesus by loving others, showing that we really have faith

 

[aidanbradypop]

Thanks…is this a teaching of your church?

Yes it is Denise.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Post above is written: if we remain faithful and live a holy, Christian life >> living a Christian life is?? Love thy enemies, do what the Lord said, etc, right? Little do they know that this means work!

I see enough Christians who said they believe in Jesus and have faith in Him, but don’t actually follow Him. I’m sorry, i don’t mean to mock as i’m also a sinner and don’t always live a Christian life, faith is a gift, God’s grace is a gift. For me, it’s better to consider faith + works. Works here I meant following what He said. Faith without works is dead. Showing we love Jesus by loving others, showing that we really have faith

You could have quoted me Vanez.

Little do they know that this means work!

I have never denied we should live out our faith. If you go back to the first of the thread and read my first post, you can see that I state that we must live like a disciple of Jesus Christ.

 

[Vanez]

Aidanbradypop

The quote button didn’t want to be clicked, i dont know why.

I still see living like disciple of Christ as good works though.

When i was a kid til my teenage years, my uncle always taught me that Jesus is crucified to pay for all our sins so it now doesnt matter if we murder and do evil things, we’ll still be saved. As a kid i already knew this is error, my Protestant mom also told me to not listen to him, this man is an example of someone who believed in faith “only” , means without even trying to live Christian life.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Aidanbradypop

The quote button didn’t want to be clicked, i dont know why.

I still see living like disciple of Christ as good works though.

When i was a kid til my teenage years, my uncle always taught me that Jesus is crucified to pay for all our sins so it now doesnt matter if we murder and do evil things, we’ll still be saved. As a kid i already knew this is error, my Protestant mom also told me to not listen to him, this man is an example of someone who believed in faith “only” , means without even trying to live Christian life.

Yeah sounds like OSAS. I know people that subscribe to that theology and live holy lives. Other not so much.

Yes we must do things once we become a Christian. I am not denying that fact. We must live out our faith.

 

[spiderweb]

Certainly scripture says, not all who call Lord Lord, etc. And Paul describes saving faith as a faith that works through love.

Maybe I’m thinking too much, but it seems grace was given to all people on the cross.

Could you clarify this statement? Surely grace was made available to all people but was it given to all people?

One can’t come to faith without grace in the first place.

Building off my above statement…One can’t live without grace at all. There is a difference between grace that everyone has received just by existing, and Saving Grace by which we are adopted into God’s family and become heirs to heaven.

We certainly receive forgiveness of sins at Baptism. We are indeed regenerated there.

Would you agree with the following statements…We receive grace (not saving grace), which leads to a faith in Jesus (not saving faith), which leads to baptism. In baptism our sins are forgiven and we receive saving grace through the Holy Spirit. So that initial grace and faith, lead to the perfection of faith in submitting to being baptized, thereby receiving saving grace.

One can reject grace.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins…
Then there is the Power of the Keys, to bind and loose.

True, one can reject grace. It sounds like we would agree that saving grace can be lost through sin, but that it can also be restored by confessing our sins, although we may disagree on the manner of confession, but that’s not something I want to get into here.

As you say, it depends on the communion you’re talking about. I certainly do not speak for all non-Catholic Christians, but I hope what I said helps.

I do appreciate the response.

 

[JonNC]

=spiderweb;12829220]Could you clarify this statement? Surely grace was made available to all people but was it given to all people?

I think we mean the same thing. Given does not always mean received.

Building off my above statement…One can’t live without grace at all. There is a difference between grace that everyone has received just by existing, and Saving Grace by which we are adopted into God’s family and become heirs to heaven.

Not exactly. Grace is Saving Grace. Some choose to reject it. That grace given to all of us on the cross is the same grace we call “saving grace”.

Would you agree with the following statements…We receive grace (not saving grace), which leads to a faith in Jesus (not saving faith), which leads to baptism.

You are speaking of an unbaptized adult, and therefore, I expect, prevenient grace.
For the Lutheran, Grace saves us. Grace regenerates, and works faith in us. Regeneration, effectively, is faith, and faith is a monergistic gift of God. It is our rejection of these causes us to be condemned. We are saved by God apart from our working or willing. He does this by Baptism (and Absolution), preaching the word, and the Eucharist.

True, one can reject grace. It sounds like we would agree that saving grace can be lost through sin, but that it can also be restored by confessing our sins, although we may disagree on the manner of confession, but that’s not something I want to get into here.

Agreed.

Jon

 

[spiderweb]

You are speaking of an unbaptized adult, and therefore, I expect, prevenient grace…

I never heard of “prevenient” grace before, but having looked it up it seems to match what I’m talking about.

For the Lutheran, Grace saves us. Grace regenerates, and works faith in us. Regeneration, effectively, is faith, and faith is a monergistic gift of God. It is our rejection of these causes us to be condemned. We are saved by God apart from our working or willing. He does this by Baptism (and Absolution), preaching the word, and the Eucharist.

I’m not really sure what you are saying here. I’m guessing you know the Catholic position, so what would be the difference here? It seems to be a very fine line of distinction, but honestly I’m not sure where. Perhaps what throws me off is the word “faith” can be really ambiguous.

 

[JonNC]

I’m not really sure what you are saying here. I’m guessing you know the Catholic position, so what would be the difference here? It seems to be a very fine line of distinction, but honestly I’m not sure where. Perhaps what throws me off is the word “faith” can be really ambiguous.

Well, I know a bit about Catholic teaching. There are many good Catholics here who are far more reliable on that count than I am.
Perhaps the following, Luther quoted in the Formula of Concord:

Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost. Oh, it is a living, busy, active, powerful thing that we have in faith, so that it is impossible for it not to do good without ceasing. 11] Nor does it ask whether good works are to be done; but before the question is asked, it has wrought them, and is always engaged in doing them. But he who does not do such works is void of faith, and gropes and looks about after faith and good works, and knows neither what faith nor what good works are, yet babbles and prates with many words concerning faith and good works. 12] [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire.

Jon

 

[spiderweb]

Ok, I think I see the difference. The Catholic position is that Adam and Eve were created in a state of Grace. Through the Fall, grace was lost to all mankind. Jesus sacrifice restores mankind’s relationship with the Father, thus restoring grace. Through baptism, we are regenerated with grace. Thus sins are washed away through baptism, we become adopted children of God and heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven, and we literally become temples of the Holy Spirit who can now dwell within us. This also constitutes an increase of Faith, Hope, and Charity. Of course this can also be lost by sin, and restored through confession.

Because it is through baptism that we receive this grace merited by Christ, and baptism is a work, we have to say faith and works (the minimum work of baptism). This is also why we have no problems with infant baptism because the grace received is a free gift from God.

It seems from your above statements and Luther that baptism regenerates faith. That might be the big difference if I am understanding that correctly.

While we would say that faith leads us to be baptized, it is through the baptism that grace is regenerated and faith is strengthened. The washing of the body being a symbolic physical act that symbolizes what is actually taking place spiritually, which is the washing and regenerating of the soul.

 

[Bookcat]

Regarding Faith and Works in St. Paul

Pope Benedict XVI

(Two audiences from the Year of St. Paul)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)

and one from a few years earlier: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[JonNC]

=spiderweb;12832225]Ok, I think I see the difference. The Catholic position is that Adam and Eve were created in a state of Grace. Through the Fall, grace was lost to all mankind. Jesus sacrifice restores mankind’s relationship with the Father, thus restoring grace. Through baptism, we are regenerated with grace. Thus sins are washed away through baptism, we become adopted children of God and heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven, and we literally become temples of the Holy Spirit who can now dwell within us. This also constitutes an increase of Faith, Hope, and Charity. Of course this can also be lost by sin, and restored through confession.

Agreed.

Because it is through baptism that we receive this grace merited by Christ, and baptism is a work, we have to say faith and works (the minimum work of baptism). This is also why we have no problems with infant baptism because the grace received is a free gift from God.

This is where I would disagree. I would not view Baptism, or any sacrament for that matter, as a “work”, unless one means a work of the living God. Baptism is His work in us.

It seems from your above statements and Luther that baptism regenerates faith. That might be the big difference if I am understanding that correctly.

Well, as a means of grace - a way in which grace is brought to us, yes, since it is grace that bring faith and regeneration.

While we would say that faith leads us to be baptized, it is through the baptism that grace is regenerated and faith is strengthened. The washing of the body being a symbolic physical act that symbolizes what is actually taking place spiritually, which is the washing and regenerating of the soul.

The question I would ask is, how does one receive that faith which leads one to be Baptized? My answer would be grace.
Your thoughts?

Jon

 

[spiderweb]

At least in the case of an adult, I would consider it a work in the same manner that worship, prayer, etc. would be a work. It is something that we choose to do in obedience to faith. And at the same time it is definitely a work of the living God as are the other sacraments. A better way to express it perhaps is that it is always the work of God, in participating in his work, it becomes our work as well since we are members of the body of Christ. Our prayers have value because they are joined to Christ. Sacraments have value instituted by Christ for us to do.

The question I would ask is, how does one receive that faith which leads one to be Baptized? My answer would be grace.
Your thoughts?

The Catholic understanding is that there are two types of grace. Sanctifying Grace (saving grace), and Actual Grace (God’s interventions throughout our lives). So the grace which leads one to receive faith is Actual Grace.

What would be your understanding of 1 Cor. 12:9 describing gifts of the Spirit among believers who have received the Holy Spirit, but that it seems to say that not everyone has the gift of Faith?

Also James 5:20 that someone who causes a sinner to repent, shall save his own soul and cover a multitude of sins. How would those passages be understood from your perspective?