Faith Alone?

[Koineman]

So Faith, done in obedience to God’s Will does not merit the promise of the Gospel?

Quite frankly: NO. It is very problematic and troublesome to refer to faith as meriting anything. Faith receives; it does not merit.

I can respect your sincere search to discern this very important foundation of the Faith. To me, this statement from Trent (the Catholic Church) gives me encouragement in the Spirit that Christ is our Justification and we, therefore can follow Him (in good works) out of the love which came from Him and we share with others.

From this statement, you’re making it clear that you really don’t understand the full import of the Trent quote I posted. You seem to be missing entirely the point that Trent says our works merit eternal life.

 

[rcwitness]

Quite frankly: NO. It is very problematic and troublesome to refer to faith as meriting anything. Faith receives; it does not merit.

Faith Alone, can recognize and know our saving Justification by its reception alone. Faith, followed in obedient works, leads to the co-operation with the life of Christ which saves us from falling back to sinfullness and has merit. The good works follow the saints with them into Heaven. Matthew 25:31-46 reveals Jesus’ recognition of those who have participated in His Salvation to them personally.

From this statement, you’re making it clear that you really don’t understand the full import of the Trent quote I posted. You seem to be missing entirely the point that Trent says our works merit eternal life.

“merit eternal life” means that we have (at the end of our earthly life) been judged by Christ and have done the Father’s Will in our life (which had been assisted with the Grace of God).

The Catechism also states tihis about merit:

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator. (42)

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. (306, 155, 970)

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions. (1998)

 

[Koineman]

Faith Alone, can recognize and know our saving Justification by its reception alone.

I’m really not getting what you’re saying here.

“merit eternal life” means that we have (at the end of our earthly life) been judged by Christ and have done the Father’s Will in our life (which had been assisted with the Grace of God).

The Catechism also states tihis about merit:

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator. (42)

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. (306, 155, 970)

Note what I said in an earlier post: I don’t think that attributing the works to grace solves the problem, because they are still ***our ***works rather than Christ’s works.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions. (1998)

Note the distinction made between initial grace of forgiveness and justification on the one hand, and meriting eternal life on the other hand. This is the same distinction that Trent made: While we don’t merit the grace of justification, since Christ merited that for us, we do merit eternal life after initial justification.

As you have already responded, and as many Catholics would, our works are all done in and through grace, so we merit nothing of ourselves. However, this only appears to resolve the problem; in reality, it doesn’t. Why? Because in this theology, the burden is on the individual believer to do the works. If I don’t do those works, I don’t merit eternal life. Thus, in this system, Christ provides only the beginning of redemption rather than all of it, for in this view, He provides the initial grace of justification, but afterward it is up to us to merit eternal life through our works.

If Trent had left out the word merit altogether, I would probably have much less of a problem with it.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

As you have already responded, and as many Catholics would, our works are all done in and through grace, so we merit nothing of ourselves. However, this only appears to resolve the problem; in reality, it doesn’t. Why? Because in this theology, the burden is on the individual believer to do the works. If I don’t do those works, I don’t merit eternal life. Thus, in this system, Christ provides only the beginning of redemption rather than all of it, for in this view, He provides the initial grace of justification, but afterward it is up to us to merit eternal life through our works.

Don’t we have the burden to renew our faith by means of repeated affirmations of said faith?

After all, we will be judged by what we do individually and the measure of that judgement hangs on what we did with the Faith given to us.

 

[Koineman]

Don’t we have the burden to renew our faith by means of repeated affirmations of said faith?

After all, we will be judged by what we do individually and the measure of that judgement hangs on what we did with the Faith given to us.

I’ve thought about that judgment and wondered if that is simply a paradox in Scripture that we must accept: We are saved by faith alone but we are judged according to our works.

But then I remembered 1 Cor. 3:

**“10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; **but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.****”

Apparently, this is not a judgment that ever results in condemnation. This judgment is not determine whether a person is justified or is worthy of eternal life, for he or she is saved even if all their works are burned up.

 

[rcwitness]

Don’t we have the burden to renew our faith by means of repeated affirmations of said faith?

Right… and I see this predominantly when we Receive the Scripture and the Eucharist together. We examine our lives and conscience saying, " Yes Lord, I am walking in the Faith. I have done what you ask of me. and I have confessed before you and my brothers when I have not done your will. Please continue to lead and strengthen me."

After all, we will be judged by what we do individually and the measure of that judgement hangs on what we did with the Faith given to us.

Yes… the debasement of ourselves in order to reject the Churches acknowledgment in the co-operation with God’s grace which can merit (RESPECTIVELY) eternal life, is counter productive. It is not going against the grace of God to realize our assisted co-operation with our salvation. It does NOT assume our good works brought the Spirit of the Son down to us, but rather that we were convicted and change by the Grace of the Son and out of this Love we show Christ to others in word and deed. Yet knowing that God alone knows our hearts and judges us.

Paul tells us we are saved, PROVIDED we do good works! He does not say we are saved because we upheld the Law of Works. The saving Law is Love, not in mere outward obedience to precepts. No one is able to uphold the Law, but Jesus did. Now, He is not alone in doing the Will of the Father, but calls and sends those who hear and keep His Word.

Romans 8 (RSVCE)

17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

 

[rcwitness]

I’ve thought about that judgment and wondered if that is simply a paradox in Scripture that we must accept: We are saved by faith alone but we are judged according to our works.

But then I remembered 1 Cor. 3:

**“10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; **but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.****”

Apparently, this is not a judgment that ever results in condemnation. This judgment is not determine whether a person is justified or is worthy of eternal life, for he or she is saved even if all their works are burned up.

This is getting into another topic. Those who have not sinned mortally (or have repented of mortal sin), yet have done damage to their relationship with Christ through things done, or things not done.

 

[clem456]

As with other issues like sola scriptura and the nature of the Church , it seems there can be a hyper-spiritualization of faith, as if it were merely an infusion of spiritual goods without a real human aspect.
Faith can be seen as something disconnected from our humanity.
But how can faith be something that God simply forces on a person, without a free human response?
Can the gift of faith really be faith, if it is not freely accepted and responded to?

It seems it is part of the natural law, written in our hearts, that grace and love are part of a free-will relationship, with an offer and response. They are not commodities which satisfy a contract on God’s part. He offers mankind his gifts all through the Old Testament, but he is not done with us after the offering of his gifts, right? God “did his part” in the garden of Eden. He could have washed his hands and been done with it.

But, he persists when we don’t respond. His gratuitous offer is not enough to satisfy his idea of love and grace, it is our response that he desires. He persists in pursuit of our human response.

He ups the ante, so to speak, and condescends to become one of us. Jesus’ Incarnation shows us what it means to be fully human, with a full human response to God the Father’s offer of grace.

This response can be a lot of work.

 

[eddie_too]

I do not understand how faith without repentance provides much of value. that is one reason I do not believe in a doctrine of “faith alone”.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I do not understand how faith without repentance provides much of value. that is one reason I do not believe in a doctrine of “faith alone”.

No one is saying that Eddie

 

[eddie_too]

do all Lutherans teach that repentance is not necessary to be saved? if yes, I did not know that about Lutherans.

 

[aidanbradypop]

do all Lutherans teach that repentance is not necessary to be saved? if yes, I did not know that about Lutherans.

Im going to go ahead and say all of Christianity teaches that

 

[Koineman]

This is getting into another topic. Those who have not sinned mortally (or have repented of mortal sin), yet have done damage to their relationship with Christ through things done, or things not done.

Regarding 1 Cor. 3, I disagree. This passage does not address the subject of mortal sin. It talks about the judgment of our works, whether the ways in which we build on the foundation are to be rewarded or not.

It does, however, address exactly the point I was getting at: that the idea of being judged by our works does not really go agaist sola fide.

 

[Koineman]

I do not understand how faith without repentance provides much of value. that is one reason I do not believe in a doctrine of “faith alone”.

Another misconception of sola fide. I should start keeping count.

 

[Koineman]

As with other issues like sola scriptura and the nature of the Church , it seems there can be a hyper-spiritualization of faith, as if it were merely an infusion of spiritual goods without a real human aspect.
Faith can be seen as something disconnected from our humanity.
But how can faith be something that God simply forces on a person, without a free human response?
Can the gift of faith really be faith, if it is not freely accepted and responded to?

You do realize that the Catholic Church does not share your view? From the Council of Orange:

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism – if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles,

 

[Isaiah45_9]

do all Lutherans teach that repentance is not necessary to be saved?

No, while they offer (for the most part) the opportunity for private confession - their view of confession is consistent with the confession we say collectively at Mass. They see the Eucharist as the mechanism for the forgiveness of sin instead of the Priest. At least that’s what I have gathered from the LCMS, WELS and ELCA pastors I have talked to. I am open to correction as always, as any fallible vessel like me should be .

 

[LutheranScholar]

No, while they offer (for the most part) the opportunity for private confession - their view of confession is consistent with the confession we say collectively at Mass. They see the Eucharist as the mechanism for the forgiveness of sin instead of the Priest. At least that’s what I have gathered from the LCMS, WELS and ELCA pastors I have talked to. I am open to correction as always, as any fallible vessel like me should be .

Yes, indeed! We are a bit simpler about the worthiness of one to Commune, as well. Simply believe that Jesus means what He says when He says " this is My Body… this is My Blood" and you’re called to the Table! For us, Confession, both corporate and individual, require two things: Contrition ( terror of God’s wrath induced by the Law, which teaches repentance) and Faith ( belief in the promise of forgiveness offered by the Gospel). When we answer " I do" to the question " do you believe that my forgiveness is Christ’s forgiveness?" en.allexperts.com/q/Lutherans-956/2010/11/Confession-1.htm,
we are Absolved! How wonderful is the mercy of our God!

 

[eddie_too]

do all people define “faith alone” the same?

if not, could someone provide the different definitions. we could then number them and when we comment refer to which definition we are addressing by simply indicating the number?

 

[eddie_too]

in this question, “do you believe that my forgiveness is Christ’s forgiveness?” to whom does the word my refer?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’ve thought about that judgment and wondered if that is simply a paradox in Scripture that we must accept: We are saved by faith alone but we are judged according to our works.

But then I remembered 1 Cor. 3:

**“10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; **but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.****”

Apparently, this is not a judgment that ever results in condemnation. This judgment is not determine whether a person is justified or is worthy of eternal life, for he or she is saved even if all their works are burned up.

That’s one of the principles of purgatory, did you know that?

How do you reconcile that passage with Romans 2 and Revelation 20?

And before you go off in the exclusivity of Romans 2 for a certain group of peoples, , keep in mind verse 11 (For God shows no partiality).

It is not that good works save, for Christ said in Luke 11 that those who do not gather with Him, scatters… Oh boy, does that strike a nerve on the current state of Christianity or what… It sure does to me.

But the absence of Love and Good Works in Faith will render that Faith dead and to nothing.

The Alone next to faith is just untenable. Not only reason and grammar can liquidate it, but Scriptures condemn it. We can’t isolate passages to conform an ideal, the totality of Scriptures should conform that ideal. That would be the whole purpose of Sola Scriptura, by isolating Faith (Which is inevitably done by saying alone), both principles cancel one another…