Faith Alone?

[Koineman]

Did you miss these passages in your discernment?

Revelations 22 (RSV-CE)

10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11** Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy**.”

12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 ****Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right ****to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

How do these verses show merit in particular? Please be specific.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Huh? That was not my intention AT ALL. I just didn’t want to hijack this thread. You could give me the benefit of the doubt.

I have been . You keep ignoring James and 1 Cor 13.

At bottom, NOBODY can avoid that charge. Why? Because everyone who decides to join a particular church has to evaluate the data to determine that THAT church is superior to the others. In that process, everyone is making himself an authority above churches.

True. But there are ways to go about it. If you are in the middle (Where I have been more times than I care to admit) and you look at history and what the Church and the Fathers have said. You realize how novel and against Church teaching this concept is. And, BTW, St. John Chrysostom is not your best reference but Pope Clement would actually make a better argument for the concept. The alone is glaringly missing still.

But I sense in this last post of yours a tone of anger and hastiness to judge, so I am skeptical of how fruitful dialogue with you would be.

I am exacerbated at the level of authority that your statement came through, yes. Angry, no. But there is no hastiness about what can be drawn from your comment that both Churches are wrong. You were pretty clear.

God bless you.

And you as well.

 

[rcwitness]

How do these verses show merit in particular? Please be specific.

Because the definition of merit is: Reward or punishment due

 

[LutheranScholar]

But James specifically says that a person is also justified by works, so he seems to go beyond merely saying that works are the necessary accompaniment of saving faith–unless we qualify that statement from the context, which, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere, all of us are more than willing to do regarding other passages (e.g., Jesus’ statement that whatever we ask for we will receive, if we believe).

I have *just enough *Germanic blood to enjoy a debate… any debate, so I’ll bite.
All I can really do is point back to the Confessions, where works are seen as necessary… but not maybe for reasons you might think on the surface. bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article20 I think that it’s extremely cool that our God- given faith makes it possible for us to do good in the first place, not because we’re saved by the things we do, Jesus already saved us, but because we’re enabled to follow God’s law in expressing love for God and our neighbor.

 

[Koineman]

Because the definition of merit is: Reward or punishment due

It is also about deserving reward or punishment. So, according to Trent, our works done in God deserve reward.

To be fair, the document does point out that such works are all from Christ and through the grace of God, but in the end, the burden of salvation is shifted from Christ to the believer, for a necessity to do those good works is laid on the believer.

 

[Koineman]

I have *just enough *Germanic blood to enjoy a debate… any debate, so I’ll bite.
All I can really do is point back to the Confessions, where works are seen as necessary…

Yes, but necessary for what? James 2:24 seems to say that they are necessary for justification: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” However, like I said, a qualification of that verse is not altogether a stretch, since we are all quick to qualify other verses that seem very clear and obvious but we know are not teaching what they seem to be teaching.

 

[clem456]

Yes, but necessary for what? James 2:24 seems to say that they are necessary for justification: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” However, like I said, a qualification of that verse is not altogether a stretch, since we are all quick to qualify other verses that seem very clear and obvious but we know are not teaching what they seem to be teaching.

Necessary to have faith.

How could a person claim to have faith if in the first place they have not made the simple act of trust, assent, submission, obedience, to Jesus Christ? This in itself is an act, or a work, which is moved by grace. But it is certainly a human response. We are not robots, we are human beings.

How could a person claim they have faith if they say “Lord Lord,” but they do not “bear good fruit”? Such a person does not have faith, because they do not “do”. Even a person paralyzed can “do” the works of God with his faith in Christ. Christ exhorts us to act in the light of grace to bear good fruit.

The only way this false dichotomy works is when the word “works” is taken out of the context of grace to mean superficial observances used for self justification. Those kinds of works isolated from grace and faith are empty.

Christ unifies faith and works, fulfills them, and fully integrates our humanity in this way. We are fully human when body and soul are truly one in Christ. The Gospel is filled with evidence of this, in fact it could be said that this is the whole reason behind the Incarnation, to fulfill the law, bring our works in line with faith and grace.

I really find these discussions to be silly and obstinate so I will bow out.

 

[Koineman]

**Necessary to have faith.

How could a person claim to have faith if in the first place they have not made the simple act of trust, assent, submission, obedience, to Jesus Christ?** This in itself is an act, or a work, which is moved by grace. But it is certainly a human response. We are not robots, we are human beings.

This is the part that I think all Christians of all stripes agree with: the necessity of faith. James, however, seems to go beyond merely saying that works are necessary for faith, since he says a person is justified by works.

 

[rcwitness]

It is also about deserving reward or punishment. So, according to Trent, our works done in God deserve reward.

Yes, that is what the gospel promises us! Amen.

8 He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor.

Keep the term ‘deserve’ in context. This is the correct context from 1 Cor 3

To be fair, the document does point out that such works are all from Christ and through the grace of God, but in the end, the burden of salvation is shifted from Christ to the believer, for a necessity to do those good works is laid on the believer.

The burden of relying on God’s grace, Spirit, cleansing, and faith to do the will of God. Yes! The burden to accomplish the means of Justification, merit, and God’s Will… No!

 

[Koineman]

8 He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor.

Keep the term ‘deserve’ in context. This is the correct context from 1 Cor 3

The burden of relying on God’s grace, Spirit, cleansing, and faith to do the will of God. Yes! The burden to accomplish the means of Justification, merit, and God’s Will… No!

I’m not sure about that. Look carefully at the wording:

or since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches,[99] continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its [due] time, provided they depart [this life] in grace,[100] since Christ our Savior says:

The condition for meriting eternal life is to depart this life in grace, but how is that done? By believing? or by doing good deeds? or both? This is answered earlier in the same chapter:

Hence, to those who work well unto the end[96] and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.[97]

So, one must work well unto the end in order to merit eternal life. Even if that merit ultimately comes from Christ, there is still a burden placed on my shoulders to obtain that merit by “work[ing] well unto the end.” What else is this saying but that the individual believer must contribute something to his salvation?

 

[clem456]

This is the part that I think all Christians of all stripes agree with: the necessity of faith. James, however, seems to go beyond merely saying that works are necessary for faith, since he says a person is justified by works.

No, he does not.
Here is the passage:

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

  18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?(Abraham did not yet know Christ) 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that **a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.** 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also **faith *without*** works is dead.

A fully integrated and unified humanity has no dichotomy between faith and works. James expresses a Christianity fulfilled by Christ.
(round and round in circles we go)

 

[Koineman]

No, he does not.
Here is the passage:

A fully integrated and unified humanity has no dichotomy between faith and works. James expresses a Christianity fulfilled by Christ.
(round and round in circles we go)

Wow, you totally missed my point. I was creating no dichotomy between faith and works. My point was that James goes beyond merely saying:

Works are necessary for faith to be genuine

to

Works justify the believer along with faith.

Are works merely the necessary accompaniment to saving faith and nothing more–the way cheese is the necessary accompaniment to a cheeseburger? Or is he saying that works do more than that?

 

[clem456]

Wow, you totally missed my point. I was creating no dichotomy between faith and works. My point was that James goes beyond merely saying:

Works are necessary for faith to be genuine

to

Works justify the believer along with faith.

Are works merely the necessary accompaniment to saving faith and nothing more–the way cheese is the necessary accompaniment to a cheeseburger? Or is he saying that works do more than that?

I understand the point.
I am saying that the passage stands on it’s own, and does not say what you are implying.
Works is part of faith, faith is part of works. Faith in fact is a work in itself, a response to God. Faith requires a human act to be faith.
(And no, that does not deny the fact that Faith is grace.)
The virgin was full of grace, yet she said yes. Her yes was a necessary part of her faith. Without the yes, no faith and God’s gift is not accepted. Christ comes to a fully human woman whose faith is fertile because it is fully integrated. She is offered the gift, she makes the act of acceptance. God’s grace, her response of faith, both come together “in-carne”.
God does not force us. That is not what grace is.

 

[Koineman]

I understand the point.
I am saying that the passage stands on it’s own, and does not say what you are implying.
Works is part of faith, faith is part of works. Faith in fact is a work in itself, a response to God. Faith requires a human act to be faith.
(And no, that does not deny the fact that Faith is grace.)
The virgin was full of grace, yet she said yes. Her yes was a necessary part of her faith. Without the yes, no faith and God’s gift is not accepted. Christ comes to a fully human woman whose faith is fertile because it is fully integrated. She is offered the gift, she makes the act of acceptance.
God does not force us. That is not what grace is.

See, here’s the problem: If that is all that James meant, why then does he say specifically that works have a justifying quality, i.e., that their job is not only to complete faith but also to justify? He says not only that faith and works go together (as you pointed out) but also that works have a justifying quality.

 

[JonNC]

I have *just enough *Germanic blood to enjoy a debate… any debate, so I’ll bite.
All I can really do is point back to the Confessions, where works are seen as necessary… but not maybe for reasons you might think on the surface. bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article20 I think that it’s extremely cool that our God- given faith makes it possible for us to do good in the first place, not because we’re saved by the things we do, Jesus already saved us, but because we’re enabled to follow God’s law in expressing love for God and our neighbor.

Agreed! The Epitome confirms the necessity of good works.
[8] 3. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.

10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.

11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins…

Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

See, here’s the problem: If that is all that James meant, why then does he say specifically that works have a justifying quality, i.e., that their job is not only to complete faith but also to justify? He says not only that faith and works go together (as you pointed out) but also that works have a justifying quality.

James explains it on vv 22

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works (That is Abraham).

Which he concludes with finality and explicitly:

“Not by Faith Alone.”

 

[rcwitness]

Here’s a tuff one for faith alone saves us.

1Timothy 5

7 Command this, so that they may be without reproach. 8 If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[JonNC]

Here’s a tuff one for faith alone saves us.

1Timothy 5

7 Command this, so that they may be without reproach. 8 If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Hi Michael
No where in Lutheran teaching, at least, is faith alone described as a license to not do what one is required to do.

In fact, it is quite the opposite.
11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

Jon

 

[Koineman]

Here’s a tuff one for faith alone saves us.

1Timothy 5

7 Command this, so that they may be without reproach. 8 If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

I don’t get it. How is this a problem for sola fide?

 

[rcwitness]

Hi Michael
No where in Lutheran teaching, at least, is faith alone described as a license to not do what one is required to do.

In fact, it is quite the opposite.
11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

Jon

I am always encouraged by your appropriate resources. Even to the point that I have trouble seeing the divide between our Communions.

As we have recognized Trent and Orange are great sources to draw from, yet im not sure if they contradict one another and to what degree does the Catholic Church accept or reject Orange.

I am gonna try to find those answers some day when Im not overwhelmed with life.