No worries my friend. Its in this context that I said that.
Thank you. :tiphat: It does help to have an understanding of as many perspectives as you can when discussing and thinking on a certain issue.I really enjoyed this post.
Now I’m just confused by your position. Earlier, you wrote this:
God is not willing that any should perish. When a human being gives in to the subtle messages of God that we all experience, and converts there is not an either or type scenario that you present. It is a combined product. God does His large bit and we in our weakness do our small bit. It is a CONJUNCTIVE product. Pelagianism is heretical to the Catholic Church, so the Catholic Church cannot be accused of that. But at the same time they do not consider us to be rag dolls, and the Catholic Church also does not have the same problems with the angst of defining predestination vs freewill as does the protestant, and that is seriously complicated with on the one hand on the other and so on. That is because it is not either or but an assent of man to obey God’s prompting. I stand at the door and knock ANYONE WHO OPENS THE DOOR. There is also the successful elimination of purgatory with your theology, and also a product of such theology is once saved always saved. It is just a logical progression. But Jesus Christ says Well done GOOD and FAITHFUL servant. If a GOOD servant can only be attributed to God, then a BAD servant is also attributed to God. That leaves the moral dilemma such that BAD servants are attributed to man and GOOD servants are just purely because of God, not the actual union of purpose. God has always wanted mankind to DO, and that is a work, that is pleasing to Him and which is conjunctively assented to.
Right, and that “small bit” is faith, and even that we cannot do on our own.
In a sense, yes, but after justification, but not before.
Actually, it really isn’t. Lutherans don’t believe in Purgatory, but we also don’t believe in once saved always saved. The one does not necessarily lead to the other.
Officially declared " heretical" or not, the idea that one has to use one’s one free will to effect salvation is at least Semipelagianism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semipelagianism, if not Pelagianism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism outright. Declaring something heretical and then incorporating elements of it into one’s theology doesn’t make the heresy any less. As I may have mentioned here before, we do have the Lutheran Confessions as our extrapolation of Biblical truth, so we aren’t contaminated by the Once Saved, Always Saved dogma. It is perfectly possible for the Evil One masquerading as one’s own ego to harden one’s heart against He Who Knocks. We are in a constant struggle against the flesh, the world and the Devil in this life and without the agency of the Holy Spirit, that’s a fight we’d lose. That particular doctrine is also known as Original Sin. The Devil is the Author of Sin in this world. If one can’t open that door, it’s Satan who’s keeping him from doing so, not God… There is no place for synergism in our doctrine, just like mixing the teachings of the Law with the Gospel is prohibited among us. I don’t speak for other Protestants because they can speak for themselves without any help from me. I do, however, try to put forth the Confessional Lutheran view as well as I can, although there are others who can do the job far better than me. Jesus also said something about how nobody can enter the Kingdom of God without being born from above and that the Father, being Spirit, seeks those to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. The Spirit gives life, the flesh can do NOTHING ( see, I can do the all- caps thing, too).
Yes, that’s what I said. Is there some sort of contradiction that you are seeing?
Sounds pretty, but when looked closely, there are conditions:
Sounds pretty, but when looked closely, there are conditions:
John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants,[a] for the servant** does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 This I command you, to love one another.**
That’s awesome! It kind of goes with what I’ve been saying. John 15:5 is actually my Confirmation Verse, by the way.Only by faith in Jesus being maintained can we do anything. That only happens by God’s grace through faith.
Love to see faith **not **alone there!That only happens by God’s grace through faith.
Huh?Love to see faith **not **alone there!
Hey bro,Love to see faith **not **alone there!
Catholic teaching affirms an ongoing justification throughout this life that depends on remaining in a state of grace, not a once-for-all, forensic justification, as in Protestantism, so I don’t see how your statement meshes with RCC teaching. Also, there is Trent’s clear pronouncement that works merit eternal life.
The statement meshes with Catholic Teaching because it acknowledges Justification is initially accounted to a person before any works of faith have been done. It recognized our ongoing justification, because we can reject/deny the faith without being doers of the faith, yet through obedience are continually justified.
Yes, I see your point, but consider this part you wrote: “They simply mean that salvation is not given to us because we did good works.”
I don’t know where you are getting the bolded underlined part. The only part were I found that works merit eternal life in the Council of Trent was followed by an anathema.
There is also a difference between man’s merit joined in union with the will of God and man’s merit apart and separated from the will of God. The first is good, the second is usually not so good.
Here:
That distinction does not matter for the post I made, since I was replying to rcwitness’s claim that “salvation is not given to us because we did good works.”
To me, its obvious that in the context of what is previously said here, that the meaning of “truly merited eternal life” is talking about a person who has entrusted themselves in faithfullness and are doers of the will of God. How can you read the first sentence which professes that without Jesus’ strength and justification they could not possibly be meritorious before God, and still criticize the Teaching as untruthfull?