Faith and Integrity

[Eddy]

I appreciate that asking this question is likely to attract some level of criticism, but before I begin, I can honestly say I’m not attempting to criticise anyone for their beliefs, but simply trying to come to a position of integrity.

I am currently attending a Protestant church. Fantastic people, real commitment of God, wonderful teaching, great worship and a good sense of community. I joined because, seeing them in action, I could honestly say ‘see how these Christians love each other’. After arriving, I was invited to get more involved – I was on their staff within 6 months, and preaching by the end of my first year. I’ve always loved teaching adults, and helping to facilitate their relationship with God, and I’ve come to think it’s my vocation – the church recognised that, celebrated it, and encouraged me to develop.

I now have to leave (due to practicalities). I have loved my church, but missed Eucharist. I was brought up Catholic, was once a daily attender, and have always had a Catholic understanding of Eucharist. I’m also very involved in Spirituality networks, almost entirely with Catholics. I continue to have some major theological issues with the Catholic church (I won’t go into them – I recognise both sides of the arguments). There is also the issue of vocation. I’m a woman. I don’t feel called to be a nun. There are NO women on the staff or volunteer leadership of my local Catholic churches (except as cooks, cleaners and secretaries). I’m not asking for ordination of women (God recognises the priesthood of all believers), but I do want to use my gifts to serve God (I don’t believe I’m being arrogant on this –it’s been confirmed by other people). I also can’t help being a thinker – I have a very academic background, including studying theology. That means I’ll always have some intellectual objections to some aspects of teaching.

I am willing, because of the Eucharist, to silence my other theological issues. But is that a position of integrity? I am also having real issues of the morality of not using my gifts, in order to be in a Church where I can accept the understanding of Eucharist – it would effectively mean beginning in a new career. So, would you say anyone in Catholicism must embrace 100% of teaching? Or is it enough to commit to Christ and Eucharist?

 

[thistle]

I appreciate that asking this question is likely to attract some level of criticism, but before I begin, I can honestly say I’m not attempting to criticise anyone for their beliefs, but simply trying to come to a position of integrity.

I am currently attending a Protestant church. Fantastic people, real commitment of God, wonderful teaching, great worship and a good sense of community. I joined because, seeing them in action, I could honestly say ‘see how these Christians love each other’. After arriving, I was invited to get more involved – I was on their staff within 6 months, and preaching by the end of my first year. I’ve always loved teaching adults, and helping to facilitate their relationship with God, and I’ve come to think it’s my vocation – the church recognised that, celebrated it, and encouraged me to develop.

I now have to leave (due to practicalities). I have loved my church, but missed Eucharist. I was brought up Catholic, was once a daily attender, and have always had a Catholic understanding of Eucharist. I’m also very involved in Spirituality networks, almost entirely with Catholics. I continue to have some major theological issues with the Catholic church (I won’t go into them – I recognise both sides of the arguments). There is also the issue of vocation. I’m a woman. I don’t feel called to be a nun. There are NO women on the staff or volunteer leadership of my local Catholic churches (except as cooks, cleaners and secretaries). I’m not asking for ordination of women (God recognises the priesthood of all believers), but I do want to use my gifts to serve God (I don’t believe I’m being arrogant on this –it’s been confirmed by other people). I also can’t help being a thinker – I have a very academic background, including studying theology. That means I’ll always have some intellectual objections to some aspects of teaching.

I am willing, because of the Eucharist, to silence my other theological issues. But is that a position of integrity? I am also having real issues of the morality of not using my gifts, in order to be in a Church where I can accept the understanding of Eucharist – it would effectively mean beginning in a new career. So, would you say anyone in Catholicism must embrace 100% of teaching? Or is it enough to commit to Christ and Eucharist?

A Catholic must accept ALL the teachings of the Church with respect to faith and morals.

 

[Della]

A couple of thoughts to share: Firstly, anyone, male or female can go to college and get a degree in theology in order to teach, either in the classroom or within parishes/dioceses. So, really there is no impediment there.

Secondly, the priesthood of believers doesn’t not cancel out the ministerial priesthood of the sacraments. Both are to bring Christ to the world, but the ministerial priesthood has the duty to bring the sacraments of the Church to the people of God. They are not better than us, rather they have a different calling, fulfilling a different place in the Body of Christ.

And finally, accepting all the teachings of the Church becomes easier as one practices one’s faith and forms one’s mind and heart to what the Church truly is and why Jesus established it. Considering that Jesus went out of his way to establish his Church and to give it very specific promises, it is only reasonable to assume he had a purpose for it that is greater and wiser than any one person’s understanding of it.

I am a woman too with gifts to share. I have found ways to use them within the Church and never had a problem with being rejected. Believe me, most parishes are eager to have people volunteer to teach and to lead Bible studies, etc. They can’t always pay people, male or female due to budget constraints, of course. Still, that service is no less important or necessary. Yes?

 

[Contarini]

I am willing, because of the Eucharist, to silence my other theological issues. But is that a position of integrity? I am also having real issues of the morality of not using my gifts, in order to be in a Church where I can accept the understanding of Eucharist – it would effectively mean beginning in a new career. So, would you say anyone in Catholicism must embrace 100% of teaching? Or is it enough to commit to Christ and Eucharist?

Well, I’ve never made up my mind to become Catholic (though if I had a Catholic background I would). But it seems to me that the key issue here is whether you think you could be wrong. As someone who has serious questions about the Catholic Church’s position on women’s ordination, it seems to me that women like you who accept the Church’s teaching on this point but want to push for greater acknowledgment of women’s gifts in other ways are badly needed. It seems to me, looking on from the outside, that many intellectual women in the Catholic Church either become angry and agitate for the day when women will be ordained, or accept a conservative view of women’s roles similar to that found in much conservative evangelicalism and fundamentalism, in which the woman’s main job is to raise children and support her husband’s ministry (or possibly to have a “woman’s ministry” consisting of teaching other women to be cheerful and submissive). This is probably an unfair generalization, and I’m sure it will raise hackles on this board. There certainly are women who don’t do either of these things, but there could be a lot more.

However, I understand what you mean about giving up your vocation. I have recently obtained a full-time job (at last) teaching in an evangelical college. I probably wouldn’t be able to keep my job if I became Catholic, and I don’t know if I’d be able to practice my vocation at all (though that’s probably way too pessimistic). Certainly it would involve a huge shift in direction for myself and (more seriously) my family (my wife loves the liturgy and the sacraments as a high-church Methodist with Anglican leanings, but she believes strongly in women’s ordination and feels no call to become Catholic; we have a two-month-old daughter which further complicates things). So I’d only do it if I were really convinced–which is what I’ve been saying for years now!

Integrity, though, wouldn’t really be an issue for me. If I decided that becoming Catholic was the right thing to do, I wouldn’t have a problem accepting that on those points where the Church clearly contradicted my opinions, my opinions were wrong. And of course, on some issues (such as women’s ordination) not everyone agrees that things are as settled as folks on this board think.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Liberian]

Eddy,

Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruitful time here.

I’m not asking for ordination of women (God recognises the priesthood of all believers), but I do want to use my gifts to serve God (I don’t believe I’m being arrogant on this –it’s been confirmed by other people).

I think the first step is obedience. Follow God back to the Catholic Church and He will show you where to use your gifts. (I don’t want to be critical of your Protestant church, by the way, but having you preach within a year of your joining sounds quite hasty to me. There’s something in the Bible about that.) You are not in charge of seeing to it that you use your gifts; God is.

I also can’t help being a thinker – I have a very academic background, including studying theology. That means I’ll always have some intellectual objections to some aspects of teaching.

Ummm … being something of a thinker myself, I have to ask: what intellectual objections do you have? John Paul II said that the Church has nothing to fear from honest inquiry; truth is truth, and will always work itself out in the end.

I am willing, because of the Eucharist, to silence my other theological issues. But is that a position of integrity?

Absolutely! It’s called “I don’t understand perfectly and will simply trust where I don’t understand.” But the flip side of that is to keep pushing on the theological issues.

So, would you say anyone in Catholicism must embrace 100% of teaching?

Yes. When I joined the Catholic Church, I stood up and publicly proclaimed that “I hold that everything that the Catholic Church teaches is true and correct.”

I apologize for the tone of this reply; on looking over it I feel that I am being condescending and short. In fact, I am trying to give some answers from my perspective and I hope my efforts do not turn you away from the Church.

• Liberian

 

[contramundum7]

Well, I’ve never made up my mind to become Catholic (though if I had a Catholic background I would). But it seems to me that the key issue here is whether you think you could be wrong. As someone who has serious questions about the Catholic Church’s position on women’s ordination, it seems to me that women like you who accept the Church’s teaching on this point but want to push for greater acknowledgment of women’s gifts in other ways are badly needed. It seems to me, looking on from the outside, that many intellectual women in the Catholic Church either become angry and agitate for the day when women will be ordained, or accept a conservative view of women’s roles similar to that found in much conservative evangelicalism and fundamentalism, in which the woman’s main job is to raise children and support her husband’s ministry (or possibly to have a “woman’s ministry” consisting of teaching other women to be cheerful and submissive). This is probably an unfair generalization, and I’m sure it will raise hackles on this board. There certainly are women who don’t do either of these things, but there could be a lot more.

However, I understand what you mean about giving up your vocation. I have recently obtained a full-time job (at last) teaching in an evangelical college. I probably wouldn’t be able to keep my job if I became Catholic, and I don’t know if I’d be able to practice my vocation at all (though that’s probably way too pessimistic). Certainly it would involve a huge shift in direction for myself and (more seriously) my family (my wife loves the liturgy and the sacraments as a high-church Methodist with Anglican leanings, but she believes strongly in women’s ordination and feels no call to become Catholic; we have a two-month-old daughter which further complicates things). So I’d only do it if I were really convinced–which is what I’ve been saying for years now!

Integrity, though, wouldn’t really be an issue for me. If I decided that becoming Catholic was the right thing to do, I wouldn’t have a problem accepting that on those points where the Church clearly contradicted my opinions, my opinions were wrong. And of course, on some issues (such as women’s ordination) not everyone agrees that things are as settled as folks on this board think.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[contramundum7]

contramundum7:
If Christ established ONE Church (and He did) we must accept everything or nothing at all - & if we accept nothing at all or some fraction of the whole that Jesus wanted for us, we are in sin, whether we fully realize it or not…
I understand/empathize with the woman who feels she can do more good being somewhat… less Catholic, as it were (for lack of a better way to say things…). I’ve been there & am going through some questioning now… But one thing i do not question is the authority of the Catholic Church to say how things should be. We can either trust her wholly or we can not trust her at all. Either she is the Chruch Christ established or she is not. It really comes down to that. I was raised CAtholic but at one time, doubted whether it was the right one… After a lot of research, i didn’t doubt any longer… I have had to sacrifice things (people) 2b Catholic. But Jesus said unless you “hate” everything/everyone, your very life, you are not worthy to be his disciple…

 

[Todd_Easton]

I would like to suggest you contact the Coming Home Network.

 

[Nita]

… I continue to have some major theological issues with the Catholic church (I won’t go into them – I recognise both sides of the arguments). There is also the issue of vocation. I’m a woman. I don’t feel called to be a nun. There are NO women on the staff or volunteer leadership of my local Catholic churches (except as cooks, cleaners and secretaries). I’m not asking for ordination of women (God recognises the priesthood of all believers), but I do want to use my gifts to serve God (I don’t believe I’m being arrogant on this –it’s been confirmed by other people). I also can’t help being a thinker – I have a very academic background, including studying theology. That means I’ll always have some intellectual objections to some aspects of teaching.

I am willing, because of the Eucharist, to silence my other theological issues. But is that a position of integrity? I am also having real issues of the morality of not using my gifts, in order to be in a Church where I can accept the understanding of Eucharist – it would effectively mean beginning in a new career. So, would you say anyone in Catholicism must embrace 100% of teaching? Or is it enough to commit to Christ and Eucharist?

Welcome home.

You say that you still have “major” theological issues - which I take to mean that there are doctrines you cannot yet accept as true. And you say you would be willing to be silent on these issues. However, if it’s a teaching position you’re seeking, how can you be silent? Even if you don’t include those areas in any prepared way, people have a way of asking questions that are “off the subject”. My opinion would be that as long as you cannot accept all of the Church doctrines you should not seek or accept a teaching position. Even if you accurately state the Church position, it’s important to remember we communicate with more than just the words. Our facial expression, our tone, our enthusiasm or lack of it, etc. can be as important as the words themselves.

Nita

 

[Eddy]

Thank you for your replies. In response to this:

‘A Catholic must accept ALL the teachings of the Church with respect to faith and morals’.

I guess this is part of where I struggle. If this is true, then the majority of Catholics I know - including priests and nuns, are simply not Catholic. They have accepted some teaching and are earnestly trying to live out their faith - while also disagreeing with many church teachings. It is their witness, and their ability to discuss faith and theology with insight, honesty and humility, that is causing me to reconsider. They live within a church that they love while earnestly hoping and praying that it will one day change.

I do believe, in the Western Church at least, that if a priest stood up on a Sunday morning and told everyone to leave who had issue with some aspect of Church teaching - everyone who believed that priests should be allowed to marry OR that contraception is acceptable in certain circumstance OR who continue to argue for the ordination of women OR disagreeing with papal infallibility - I’m just not sure how full the church would be afterwards. And maybe, some might think it would be a good thing - that the church would be purfied. Or maybe the church is a lot broader than it is sometimes presented, and that’s how it should be. I don’t claim to know, but the answer will be part of my final decision I suppose. I am drawn to my friends’ Catholicism, but, it seems, perhaps they’re simply not representative of the church

 

[shirleytowers]

Eddy,
What was the original sin, exactly, in your opinion?

 

[Nita]

Thank you for your replies. In response to this:

‘A Catholic must accept ALL the teachings of the Church with respect to faith and morals’.

I guess this is part of where I struggle. If this is true, then the majority of Catholics I know - including priests and nuns, are simply not Catholic. They have accepted some teaching and are earnestly trying to live out their faith - while also disagreeing with many church teachings. It is their witness, and their ability to discuss faith and theology with insight, honesty and humility, that is causing me to reconsider. They live within a church that they love while earnestly hoping and praying that it will one day change.

I do believe, in the Western Church at least, that if a priest stood up on a Sunday morning and told everyone to leave who had issue with some aspect of Church teaching - everyone who believed that priests should be allowed to marry OR that contraception is acceptable in certain circumstance OR who continue to argue for the ordination of women OR disagreeing with papal infallibility - I’m just not sure how full the church would be afterwards. And maybe, some might think it would be a good thing - that the church would be purfied. Or maybe the church is a lot broader than it is sometimes presented, and that’s how it should be. I don’t claim to know, but the answer will be part of my final decision I suppose. I am drawn to my friends’ Catholicism, but, it seems, perhaps they’re simply not representative of the church

It’s important to understand what is meant by “accept”. It doesn’t mean that you understand, that you like, that your reasoning arrives at the same conclusion; etc… What it means is that when the Church teaches something is infallibly true, you accept it as true because God has assured us that His Church will not err in what it binds and looses. (cf Mt. 16:18-19) The trust is in God, not in men.

I am speaking here of myself, from experience. It was confidence in my own reasoning and thinking (PRIDE) that led me not just out of my faith, but out of Christianity. When I came back, there were still many doctrines I had trouble with (the “trouble” being my own human reasoning!!). But, thank heavens, God gave me a very great grace – to know/grasp/appreciate/love the doctrine of infallibility. That made it easier for me to say regarding those troubling doctrines, “I believe Lord because Your Church says it is true; but I don’t understand/like etc. If it’s important for me to understand, You’re just going to have to show me.” I’m happy to say, over the years, He has shown me.

Sometimes the problem, especially with the moral and feminist issues, is that people aren’t really in search of Truth, God’s truth - and actually don’t even want it if it is going to contradict what they want. Their intellectual energy will be spent searching for ways to refute what they don’t like - rather than accept it’s truth and then use their intellect to seek understanding of why it is true. I can assure you that pursuing understanding of God’s revealed truths is far more fulfilling and uplifting than seeking to refute His revelations.

Will be praying that God will continue to guide you into His Truth.

Nita

 

[Veritas41]

Thank you for your replies. In response to this:

‘A Catholic must accept ALL the teachings of the Church with respect to faith and morals’.

I guess this is part of where I struggle. If this is true, then the majority of Catholics I know - including priests and nuns, are simply not Catholic. They have accepted some teaching and are earnestly trying to live out their faith - while also disagreeing with many church teachings. It is their witness, and their ability to discuss faith and theology with insight, honesty and humility, that is causing me to reconsider. They live within a church that they love while earnestly hoping and praying that it will one day change.

I do believe, in the Western Church at least, that if a priest stood up on a Sunday morning and told everyone to leave who had issue with some aspect of Church teaching - everyone who believed that priests should be allowed to marry OR that contraception is acceptable in certain circumstance OR who continue to argue for the ordination of women OR disagreeing with papal infallibility - I’m just not sure how full the church would be afterwards. And maybe, some might think it would be a good thing - that the church would be purfied. Or maybe the church is a lot broader than it is sometimes presented, and that’s how it should be. I don’t claim to know, but the answer will be part of my final decision I suppose. I am drawn to my friends’ Catholicism, but, it seems, perhaps they’re simply not representative of the church

This has been my experience as a Catholic for the past 9 years (I’m a convert from evangelical Protestantism) – the majority of Catholics I know either don’t know Church teaching on many things or they know it and openly disagree with it (like the person in my parish who is over all the religious ed --go figure). I’ve met very few Catholics in person who agree 100% with all Church teaching, but in saying that, it doesn’t mean that because perhaps the majority of Catholics reject some Church teaching that the Church’s teachings are therefore not 100% true. If most of the people in the world didn’t believe God existed, it wouldn’t mean that God doesn’t exist,just that most people don’t believe He exists. When I became Catholic, like another poster has already said, I had to get up in front of everybody and say I believed all the Catholic Church teaches. I did, and I meant it. I have no problem believing it’s all true because Jesus IS the Truth, and He came to reveal the truth to us, so we must be able to know all the truth He wanted to reveal. I think the fact that the Catholic Church is the only church that hasn’t changed or amended its teachings to make them more acceptable is a sign of divine origin – truth doesn’t change because truth is absolute and unchanging. I think the problem with people today is they want truth to conform to their likes and dislikes instead of letting themselves be conformed to truth.

 

[LittleRose]

‘A Catholic must accept ALL the teachings of the Church with respect to faith and morals’.

Acceptance doesn’t have to mean wholehearted agreement right away. What it does mean is that we are supposed to have a spirit of humble obedience in relation to the teachings of the Church. Even if we are questioning some of them, we still obey them, allowing for the possibility that our own opinions may be mistaken, or our knowledge limited. We are to keep ourselves open to learning and eventually understanding.

As far as your desire to teach goes, there are opportunities for that as a religious education teacher for RCIA classes and other ministries geared toward adults. There are even programs available for people who want to be a part of these ministries within the church. For example, My mother, a “revert” to Catholicism) is currently enrolled in a certificate program at a Catholic university to become a Catechist so that she can share the Faith more effectively with others.

Though women cannot be priests, that doesn’t mean we cannot have any position of leadership within our communities. There are also nuns whose mission is to provide religious education. I knew two when I attended a Catholic high school. One was the Vice Principal and dean of Studies, and the other a classroom teacher. They were both excellent women (and somewhat formidable, despite their ages). You also have the option of remaining a single lay person and seeking out ministry opportunities similar to those listed above.

 

[Eddy]

Thanks for your responses.

I guess I’ll just keep searching and keep trying - I’ll probably go and see a local Catholic priest and have a chat with him (I’ve friends who are priests, but it might be good to talk to a new person). And I’ll keep praying and see what God seems to be saying.

I still struggle. I just have so many friends who are Catholic who agree with me on the theological issues, but by the definitions I hear here, they’re not Catholic at all - they don’t say ‘I disagree but if the Church says it it must be true’. They say ‘I disagree, and I think the Church is wrong on this point, but I’ll continue to labour within her, because that’s where God’s placed me, and the Eucharist feeds me’.

Ultimately it’s the Church= the voice of God that I struggle to believe. I just don’t see the two as the same thing, and if I think God is communicating one thing, and the Church another, God is the one I want to follow.

 

[contramundum7]

Thanks for your responses.

I guess I’ll just keep searching and keep trying - I’ll probably go and see a local Catholic priest and have a chat with him (I’ve friends who are priests, but it might be good to talk to a new person). And I’ll keep praying and see what God seems to be saying.

I still struggle. I just have so many friends who are Catholic who agree with me on the theological issues, but by the definitions I hear here, they’re not Catholic at all - they don’t say ‘I disagree but if the Church says it it must be true’. They say ‘I disagree, and I think the Church is wrong on this point, but I’ll continue to labour within her, because that’s where God’s placed me, and the Eucharist feeds me’.

Ultimately it’s the Church= the voice of God that I struggle to believe. I just don’t see the two as the same thing, and if I think God is communicating one thing, and the Church another, God is the one I want to follow.

 

[contramundum7]

contramundum7:
i was “raised Catholic” yet had to go through a struggle myself because i wasn’t taught the complete & true teachings of the Church (concerning Purgatory, Mary, etc.). I did some studying & learned that the Catholic Church is the one Chruch Christ established. Its a long story how i learned… No, i re-learned this… I always “knew” it was, its just that i had a thousand questions…
Jesus did establish only One Church. It doesn’t make sense that He would want thousands of different “churches” that all teach different htings… God is not the author of confusion.
You are right to obey your conscience rather than some “church”. But contrary to what people say about the Church, it is not a merely human institution. It is a divine institution run by not-so-divine humans… The people in the Church cannot always be trusted, but the teachings of the Church CAN be…
Anyway, you bring up a good point about how the poeple you know aren’t “real” CAtholics (my words)… There are so many people who call themselves Catholic, yet don’t believe the Church. I just chalk it up to ignorance - or, if not that, it is outright disobedience disguised as "I don’t agree with [this or that teaching]… God bless you in your search…