Faith and Morals - Salvation outside the Church

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SCROLL TO THE END OF THE DEBATE-Pat’s closing statements–no i did not paraphrase that–he said exactly those words–"many of you run the risk of going to hell for not entering the Catholic church.“kirk I am sorry but your in theological error if not a heretic–in your earlier post you said that “you dont think that Protestnts salvation” depends on thier conversion to the catholic faith” that terrrible!!! i would abstain from communion if i were you and I would take this matter to our Lord before the Blessed Sacrament!!! I mean why should they convert if their salvation isnt at stake?
 
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niecea:
SCROLL TO THE END OF THE DEBATE-Pat’s closing statements–no i did not paraphrase that–he said exactly those words–"many of you run the risk of going to hell for not entering the Catholic church.“kirk I am sorry but your in theological error if not a heretic–in your earlier post you said that “you dont think that Protestnts salvation” depends on thier conversion to the catholic faith” that terrrible!!! i would abstain from communion if i were you and I would take this matter to our Lord before the Blessed Sacrament!!! I mean why should they convert if their salvation isnt at stake?
Please provide a link.
 
how do i do that—i assure you i ma telling the truth and i ma quoting it accuratley–i have the transcript printed out right here in front of me
 
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niecea:
how do i do that—i assure you i ma telling the truth and i ma quoting it accuratley–i have the transcript printed out right here in front of me
Rather than going into a long techie explanation-- please go put the title in Google and tell me the name of the website it comes up on. Then let me know the date of the debate.
 
This may have been an isolated situation but I can remember being taught by diocesan priests in High School and in Religion class it was taught that IF a Protestant fully believed that his or her faith was the true faith without a shadow of a doubt, that is barring any thoughts of another being more true to the faith than theirs that they had as much the same chance at salvation as a Roman Catholic did.

StMarkEofE
 
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niecea:
SCROLL TO THE END OF THE DEBATE-Pat’s closing statements–no i did not paraphrase that–he said exactly those words–"many of you run the risk of going to hell for not entering the Catholic church.“kirk I am sorry but your in theological error if not a heretic–in your earlier post you said that “you dont think that Protestnts salvation” depends on thier conversion to the catholic faith” that terrrible!!! i would abstain from communion if i were you and I would take this matter to our Lord before the Blessed Sacrament!!! I mean why should they convert if their salvation isnt at stake?
I’m not a heretic. I’ve only said that I believe what the Catechism teaches. Also, you have mispoken. I have NOT said ’ “you dont think that Protestnts salvation” depends on thier conversion to the catholic faith’ (sic). I have not used those words anywhere. Mostly what I have done is quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, our promulgated by our late and beloved Holy Father of happy memory, Pope John Paul II. Surely you aren’t calling HIM a heretic, are you? I also ventured a list of Protestants (in another thread) who I did not BELIEVE was in Hell. You’re free to believe they are if you wish, though I should point out that the Church has never specifically said that any particular person was in Hell. Finally, “why should they convert if their salvation isnt at stake?”
The list of reasons is far too long, far too grand, far too holy, far too sweet to list here. In the end, Marineboy, words are symbols, intended to convey meaning. The safest place, when it comes to words, is to stand on the words of the Church. That’s all I’ve done.
 
ok well here is a question–all thin gs being equal–objectively in the normative sense–do you believe that God wants all Protestants to formally enter the church???yes or no?
 
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ecclesia2:
ok well here is a question–all thin gs being equal–objectively in the normative sense–do you believe that God wants all Protestants to formally enter the church???yes or no?
Why, of course I do! Haven’t you read all my posts?
 
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ecclesia2:
ok well here is a question–all thin gs being equal–objectively in the normative sense–do you believe that God wants all Protestants to formally enter the church???yes or no?
I believe what the Catechism of the Catholic Church, promulgated by our late and beloved Holy Father of happy memory, HH Pope John Paul II, teaches.
 
u cant even answer the question directly–what a friggin wimp you are–your not a soldier for christ, but a pansy–you cant even stand up and let your “yes” mean “yes” and your “no” mean"no" examine yourself before he spits you out of his mouth
 
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ecclesia2:
u cant even answer the question directly–what a friggin wimp you are–your not a soldier for christ, but a pansy–you cant even stand up and let your “yes” mean “yes” and your “no” mean"no" examine yourself before he spits you out of his mouth
I fail to see how professing belief in the teachings of the Church can be regarded as being a “friggin wimp” or a “pansy…” I forgive you for your lack of charity.
 
[marineboy, are you trying to get yourself banned?]

There’s been so much going round & round & round, I’m not ever going to be able to put this all into words that make sense!!! :crying:

Can it be described in a nutshell? I have to see if I can put this into words…
  1. There is no salvation outside the (Catholic) Church.
This is true because:

There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ; and the Church cannot be separated from its spouse, its maker, its head. The Church is the “embodiment” of the Sacraments which impart the grace of God.

Protestants (thru valid baptism) are members of the Church (“brothers in the Lord”, “separated brethren”).

The gift of grace and truth (from Father, Son, and H.S.) are not confined to explicit means. These graces (whereever they are found) are also a non-visible expression of the graces found in the Church (see CCC section below).

This applies not only to those who are not baptised, but to Protestants who-- without becoming explicit, fully unified members-- may attain salvation thru the (Catholic) Church. This is why any and all (even if they’ve never heard of Jesus), may be saved.

OTOH, anyone (whether pagan or Prot or Cath) may refuse salvation (which only comes thru Jesus Christ and the Church) by personally rejecting whatever Truth and grace that they have received (thru explicit or implicit means).

Am I making sense?

819 Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.]
 
u think charity is being “nice” that’s half your problem–why dont you answer the question directly–do Protestants run the risk of going to hell for not entering the catholic faith—???
 
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ecclesia2:
u think charity is being “nice” that’s half your problem–why dont you answer the question directly–do Protestants run the risk of going to hell for not entering the catholic faith—???
I think the best place to look for the answer to that question is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, promulgated by our late and beloved Holy Father of happy memory, Pope John Paul II. And I quote:

**818 **“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . ***All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”***272 **819 **"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

**Who belongs to the Catholic Church? **

**836 **"All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

**837 **"Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. ***Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321 (As an aside, I always think this is worth remembering).*****838 **"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
 
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